Buu

I believe your problematic anger stems from within America's hypocritical standards. Contrary to the work of Khan, the CIA has outdone everybody in giving Iran the blueprints to build these bombs.

The Russian, who had defected to the US years earlier, still couldn't believe the orders he had received from CIA headquarters. The CIA had given him the nuclear blueprints and then sent him to Vienna to sell them - or simply give them - to the Iranian representatives to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

George Bush insists that Iran must not be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. So why, six years ago, did the CIA give the Iranians blueprints to build a bomb? | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

It's rather simple, really, and the commotion through your caps lock is very distasteful and unnecessary. The only way a way can be "legal" through today's standards is if it meets these two demands: it is a direct retaliatory response to an attack (which Iraq wasn't - Afghanistan allegedly was); or, the war is authorized by the United Nations (which it wasn't). Failing to qualify for either standard, one can only say the war was completely illegal.

They said that about 'Nam, remember? And you really shouldn't be so dependent on limited thinking. Iran doesn't need to have top tier military weaponry or technology; the street thugs in Iraq has caused the "strongest" country in the world to be subject to global humiliation, hundreds of billions of dollars, and a crumbling economy.

You seem to think that the sole purpose of Iran (or any anti-American movement) is to defeat the US's military. We recognize America's firepower, but also recognize how incompetent their holders are. While you are killing men with outdated Russian rifles, they are killing your soldiers and your economy. Losses through war come in many shapes and size; lives are not the only thing America is losing right now.

Seems to be a plan that's functioning rather well, if I do say so myself. The US is embarrassing itself - so much so that, other nations are being spoken over America for the title of superpower.

If I can get banned on WorldAffairsBoard.com for stating my opinion which is different than your's, then let me know, because I will gladly show myself the door.

__________________
"Did you think that we created you in vain; that you were not to be returned to us?" - Qur'an

JAD_333

What's new in your side of the story? You touted Iran's military as the largest in the world and when shown that was not the case, you back pedaled and said we were supposed to know that you didn't mean qualitatively.

Your pitch for the right of Iran and other have-not countries to possess nuclear processing facilities is the usual legalistic-let's-be-fair pitch. I make no apologies for the US position that we shouldn't be fair; that the nuclear club is big enough and that we should put all the pressure we can on any country that launches a nuclear program.

Here's an eyeopener for you; Might makes right.

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To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

Officer of Engineers

Do you not read your own links? The CIA provided a flawed implosion device, designed to fizzle. AQ Khan provided a DF-2 warhead device.

WRONG! There is ONLY one way for a war to be ILLEGAL and that is for the UN to declare it so. Check the Krajina Invasion, I was there. The UN said squat all. Check the Chechnya Invasion. The UN said squat all. Check the Sino-Vietnam Wars. The UN said squat all. Check the Sino-Soviet clashes. The UN said squat all. NONE OF THESE ACTIONS WERE ILLEGAL!

WHAT GLOBAL HUMILATION? The US is still in Iraq and as current evidence shows, the Iraqis are now turning to US forces just to get on with the basis of day-to-day living. Shia may now hate Sunni but at least US forces are allowing them to trade with each other.

And again, you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG Iran has the largest military. She can't even decide actions in Iraq wheras the Americans can.

Losing what? Just how old are you? I've lived through the Vietnam War. I've lived through the Sino-Vietnam Wars. I've lived through the Soviet-Afghan War and in all cases, the "looser" emerged stronger than before. Even the USSR though her collapse had nothing to do with Afghan War.

Let me get this straight - embarrassment = defeat?

You're welcome to leave anytime you want BUT you are NOT welcome to spill your bullcrap that we've spent over 10,000 posts debating upon to which you have NOT bother to read.

It is one thing to offer your opinion up to for challenge but it is quite another to come into our home telling us we don't know crap when we have read have your crap before and proven it wrong ... and continue to do so.

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Chimo

S-2

Thank you for your reply.

"Specific laws in Iraq were recently passed, so that Western companies could operate and have full access to Iraqi oil (currently under American control)."

LOL! If it's under our control what matter Iraqi developmental legislation? No matter. Provide a link of this Iraqi legislative largesse to western energy shareholders, please? Meanwhile can you explain how this legislation, recently passed as you indicate, differs from the proposed oil law legislation being discussed now in Dubai? Aggravating and tedious though it may be, please elaborate on this point further if you would.

In any case, Iraqi officials estimate $25 billion in foreign investment needed to bring Iraqi fields to their full potential. Hopefully, those western shareholders will see something of those "trillions" which you mentioned.

Moreover, disputes between Kurds and everybody else makes the pending oil law legislation problematic. Thank God (PBUA) that "recently passed" other legislation is already out there on the books, eh?

"Oh, you must be referring to the Iran-Iraq war; the same war America aided Saddam in, and gave information on how to create mustard gas."

Red herring. Iraq will be invading nobody henceforth as a result of OIF. That is the salient point towards Iran's nat'l security today. Your attempt to divert the point only reinforces that Iraq has previously invaded Iran, proof of OIF's benefit to Iran. Still, you're welcome to provide a link to America's offered "mustard gas" recipe to Iraq. THAT I don't believe and will eagerly and closely scrutinize your source.

"You cannot justify a fullscale invasion based on the reports of an Americangeneral alone."

Poorly informed am I? Actually most here will tell you that the input of THIS particular general, all four stars and commander of MNF-I, will have considerable effect upon any war plans involving Iran. In short, his opinion matters. Only the most willfully obtuse cave-dweller might think otherwise. Oh, "full-scale invasion" is most unlikely. Bombed silly, maybe not.

"There must be some form of a neutral force stationed in Iraq to observe whether or not there are foreign militants..."

Ummm... you're not serious, are you? We don't need a neutral force to establish the obvious. We need Iran to be a good neighbor to Iraq instead of a party and accomplice to sectarian murder.

"...Exploring and enhancing nuclear technology is considered an act of war nowadays?

Of course not, oh informed one. Providing Iraqi shia militias with EFPs, IEDs, sniper rifles, command and control through al Quds agents provocateur, funds, and Iranian training bases/facilities probably are, though. To this point, Iranian efforts in this regard have proved far more dangerous to Iraqi citizens than U.S. soldiers- justification enough for Iraq to declare war.

Sadly, they have no army capable of defending itself from Iran and may request our assistance in such matters.

"Besides, your descriptions fit the unfortunate bill of Israel's terror organization. Of course, who dares point the accusing finger at a non-Muslim nation? At least, Iran admits its nuclear program to raise awareness and generate acceptance. Israel keeps their program secretive through denial and disregards UN inspections, which are infinitely more important that individual proposals."

Iran sign the NPT? Yes. Israel? No. Start there. If signed but in violation of treaty provisions for nineteen years, why not revoke the treaty? THAT would be honest. What nuclear inspections by the U.N. do you speak of, please?

"It's certainly an eye-opener to hear the other side of the story for once, is it not?"

Not from you it isn't.

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"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Kansas Bear

Where is your condemnation of the OTHER nations that aided Saddam???


Another, the US is to blame for all the world's ills, troll....

"In the 1980's, the German firm Karl Kolb and the French firm Protec combined to furnish millions of dollars' worth of sensitive equipment to six separate plants for making mustard gas and nerve agents, with a capacity of hundreds of tons of nerve agent per year. These companies had to know what the specialized glass-lined vessels they peddled were to be used for. In fact, just before the Gulf War, Germany was selling complete, ready-to-operate poison gas plants to Iraq and Libya at the same time.

Iraqi Air Force
The Iraqi air force does not fly Falcons or Eagles. The majority of the Iraqi air force is made in Russia. The Russian MiG and Sukhoi design bureaus supplied Iraq with hundreds of advanced strike-fighters and the Mach 3 Foxbat interceptor.

Saddam could field a force of advanced MiG-29 Fulcrum fighters if they had not chickened out of combat during the Gulf War, flying to Iran for asylum. The Iranians, who love Saddam even less than we do, never returned the MiGs.

The remainder of the Iraqi air force comes from France and China. The Chinese supplied Saddam with the Chengdu F-7, a copy of the Russian MiG-21. The F-7 can fly from unimproved runways and is known to be a vicious in-close dog fighter.

However, the French Mirage F-1 is reportedly the best jet fighter in Iraqi hands. You can view an Iraqi F-1 in action on the State Department Web site, testing a chemical spraying system.

If you still believe that the Iraqis have no chemical weapons, think again. Iraq did not modify its best multimillion-dollar fighter jet to spray for fruit flies.

Iraqi Army
Okay, if not jet fighters and missiles, then how about tanks? Certainly the biggest weapons seller in the world, the U.S.A., sold tanks to Iraq.

The Iraqi armor force is made up of Chinese and Russian models familiar to any "cold" warrior. The Iraqi T-72 and T-55 tanks are all of Russian manufacture. The Iraqis also have a large number of Type-59 Chinese tanks and Russian-made BMP armored troop carriers. No M-1 Abrams here.

How about attack helicopters? The Iraqis have a number of choppers they used against the Kurds and Shiites.

So sorry, the Iraqi attack chopper force is Russian and French. The Russians supplied Iraq with a large number of the Mil-24 Hind attack helicopters, armed to the teeth with cannon, missiles and even chemical weapon sprayers.

The French supplied Saddam with a large number of Gazelle attack helicopters. The same French also managed to keep Saddam's attack helicopter force flying today with spare parts.

The main Iraqi artillery is the French 155mm howitzer. The remainder of Iraq's artillery is 122mm Russian-made cannons and Russian-made short-range rocket launchers. Even the Iraqi foot soldier is armed with the venerable AK-47 of Russian and Chinese make.

Iraq has declared that it weaponized for chemical weapons purposes the following munitions: RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenades and 82mm and 120mm mortar shells exclusively for CS; 130mm and 155mm artillery shells for mustard agent; 250- and 500-gauge aerial bombs for mustard, tabun, sarin and CS; 122mm rockets, R-400 and DB-2 aerial bombs for sarin and mixtures of GB/GF; and Al Hussein missile warheads for sarin. Of these, Iraq acquired the capability to produce all of the aerial bomb types listed and the Al Hussein missile warheads and chemical containers for 122mm rockets. It was reliant on imports of the other empty munitions but had the capability to empty conventional artillery shells and aerial bombs for subsequent refill with chemical-weapons agent."

YOUR opinion based on heresay, speculation and delusions.......

Kansas Bear

Date Importer/Exporter Item(s)
1975-1981 Karl Kolb GmbH of Hamburg, Germany "chemical pilot plants" Provides Iraq with several "heavy duty pumps and chemicals."
1976 a Milan-based company "CW plant" Helps build plant under the auspices of a pesticide production deal.
early-1979 British entity protective gear Iraqi plant located near the town of Akashat
1980-1981 Duesseldorf-based Thyssen Rheinstahl setup of the Diyala Chemical Laboratory Diyala later becomes al-Salman Pak
1981 Egypt assistance with CW program Iraq provides Egypt with $12 million in return for assistance with production and storage of CW agents.
1982 "British sources" protective suits 76 suits are sold
1982 West German company equipment for production of CW
July 1983 KBS Holland BV 500 tons of thiodiglycol Sold for approximately £ 500,000.
September 1983 Karl Kolb of Germany Two pilot plants to produce CW agents.
late-1983 KBS Holland 500 tons of thiodigloycol, 200 tons of trimethyl phosphate, 250 tons of phosphorous oxychloride, and 200 tons of potassium fluoride. Order was placed by the Iraqis, but was cancelled due to pressure applied by the Dutch government.

Parihaka

No no gentlemen, it's the US who supplied Iraq, didn't you see the photo of Saddam and Rumsfeld shaking hands?

__________________
In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Shek

I've shaken Rumsfeld's hand. Does that make me a second cousin to Saddam ?

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"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Parihaka

It makes you Saddam and George Galloway's love child (Rumsfeld was the surrogate mother )

InfiniteDreams

Gentlemen,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I find them very insightful.

Sir,

You have a way of making difficult situations sound very simple. I wonder how such a scenario would play out before allowing them to turn the lights back on. I’m not sure how American or world public opinion would respond to keeping them without power in perpetuity. I myself do not like being without power… But it’s sure-fire way to get their attention and bring the Iranian people and regime to their senses.
I agree with all your assessments above. Ultimately Iran has the ability to avert war if it so chooses and bears the responsibility for it policies to it’s populous. Unfortunately if there is war the spin of the media (even here in the US) will portray the conflict in a different light that how you or I will perceive it…. of that I’m sure.
They are renown for being very shrewd when it comes to business. I hope you are right that the scenario plays in such a manner as to avoid war.
You would think logic would dictate that but the actions of China, Russia & Pakistan for the past 20 year gives evidence to the contrary. All 3 of those states have helped Iran with its nuclear technology and the missile capabilities. I know their out to make a buck but there seems to be a pattern when they understand what Iran is doing yet they continue to enable Iran in it’s ambitions of becoming a nuclear power (perhaps as resort to counter US power in the region).
Again I hope you are right…

How other states behave particularly Russia and China with it comes to nuclear proliferation is where I really get baffled. Russia & China know very well what’s going on in Iran. They know Iran purchased blueprints of AQ Khan and are not being transparent in all their activities yet they turn a blind eye. Surely the Russians do not want a nuclear arms race right on their border.

I also worry that now that the DPRK has cut a deal in vis-à-vis the 6 party talks that something funky is going on behind back doors. No one is talking about what happened two weeks ago in Syria (Iran’s middleman in illicit activities). I don’t buy the bombing of a nuclear power plant. There was a shipment of some kind from the DPRK and then the Israeli’s scuttled their jets. Something’s not right and I worry that maybe in their hate for the US the DPRK would arm Iran with a nuclear weapon knowing that Iran may be the ‘next’ victim in the Axis of Evil.

I hope the US is ready to deal with any secret alliances that want to counter US power in the region and that includes all members of the SCO. They do not like us in Iraq & Afghanistan, which China & Russia consider their own backyard and are the ones that should be policing it in the first place. I think attacking Iran although no doubt justifiable will even further aggravate Russia & China.

The Russians seems very bitter about the cold war and appear willing to sell its soul just to counter US power in some shape or form. The same goes with China who wants to rival if not supercede the US in power projection. Both Russia & China want to see the US weakened and will gladly help other states diminish the United States ability to project power.

Putin goes to Tehran tomorrow. What’s is he going to tell Tehran? “We’ll help you however we can” or “You better make a deal soon!”. ?

Maybe I’m way off base or overly paranoid but I do not trust the Russians or the Chinese in regards to Tehran

__________________
The purpose of all war is ultimately peace. - Saint Augustine
For it tis' the doom of men that they forget. - Merlin the Magician
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein

Officer of Engineers

The strategy is simple but the prosecution is not. To collapse the power grid, you need to collapse alot of junctions (ie, transformers) as well as power stations. In alot of cases, it would be easier to collapse a bridge than to hit a single transformer.

Then, there is the case of civilian casualties. Cholera would be rampant since fresh water is automatically cut off to the urban population. And hospitals (and babies) would become automatic morgues.

Dreadnought

They said that about 'Nam, remember? And you really shouldn't be so dependent on limited thinking. Iran doesn't need to have top tier military weaponry or technology; the street thugs in Iraq has caused the "strongest" country in the world to be subject to global humiliation, hundreds of billions of dollars, and a crumbling economy.


Global humiliation? If your meaning is that hiding behind women,children and holy sites is humiliation for the U.S. better think again. Unfortunately for said "street thugs" and various other groups intended they certainly do not believe in one concept of the U.S. military doctrine:

1) Preserve life at all costs.

They (street thugs) throw it away and murder women and children the sick and the elderly under their "vision" of what god wants. To even think for a moment that if the U.S. didnt hold such things as prescious in their doctrine they would have steam rolled both Iraq and Iran and there would be very little for them to do about it except execute more of the very same women, children,sick,elderly or not coformative to their ludicrious religious eddicts.

Apparently this is not included in the doctrine of those that caused "the strogest country in the world" etc etc.

And bye the way they havent even scratched the very surface.

And it says what for them? This is what God wants? Horseshit they are nothing but narrow minded killers and cowards that fail to realize that every single being deserves equal rights beit man or woman and that their "version" of religion is absolute.

Hear me when I say this: They know nothing about what god wants only a perverted interpertation of it because if they did none of this would be going on in the first place.

Economy? Your making me laugh here. Obviously you dont read the reports released about our economy so this is certainly a moot point to hold with you.

Hundreds of Billions? It sure is. Hundreds of Billions that will do good things for those good people and will cement a relationship that will spawn democracy through out the region. And when the U.S. and their Allies emerge from this conflict they will be 10 times as stronger & effecient in warfare tactics and many other departments then any terrorist army thrown at them for years and years to come. FACE IT they are running out of places to hide. Once the M.E. is peaceful again there will be only the outlands and islands for the terrorists and that cant last forever either.

As far as the door to the WAB goes...When you have had enough common sense drilled into your head and can take no more then feel free to leave..the handicap ramp is on the right. Hope you enjoyed your stay.

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Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

astralis

shek,

you're a marked man! and here i was betting on you making brigadier by age 40 now the promotion board will make you wait another few years for having touched THAT hand.

__________________
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

astralis

dreadnought,

US military doctrine regarding collateral damage is built as much upon effectiveness as upon moral concerns. if you mindlessly kill civilians, the backlash is far greater. that means your only real option is to kill whole boatloads of them in hopes of terrifying them into submission.

of course, if the US did that in this day and age when it did not have to, it would mean instantly destroying acceptance of US hegemony in the world- not to mention the destruction of the standing of the US military at home.

that's the difference between desperate militants and the US. if the US ever falls into such desperation, we will not hestitate to kill men, women, and children. we've done it before.

that's one of the hardest things to understand about a COIN type war. both sides play by different rules.