Parihaka

You are the one who has claimed that Israel would be the preemptive one, no one else, and that statement by you is directly opposite to the original
theoretical question. You raise a strawman and then use that to defend your anti-semetic opinion?

__________________
In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Asim Aquil

No man, read up...
Which is quite a weird argument in a thread that says "What if Iran Attack Israel"...

Lol If Israel is the one that launches a preemptive strike against Iran then that's just Iran fighting back.

Asim Aquil

Haha and you are missing out where I said "mutual disarmament"? See if Nukes are going to be introduced they have to be used before Israel can use them and kill us. They obviously intend OUR nuclear annihilation... If they don't destroy the nukes and I'd be all for Iran destroying their nukes. Why don't you comment upon that?

Mustafa Kalif

Technically as the avowed destroyer of your nation and people prepare to annihilate you, a preemptive destruction of the enemies war making capabilities is always the best course of action.

Judging how Israel attacked the surrounding Arab countries in 1967, the destruction of Israel was averted. Or the attack against the Iraqi nuclear facility in 1981 prevented Saddam from using his WMDs in a setback of years.

You are quite wrong about Israel attacking civilian, religious and non-military targets in Lebanon. That was their mistake for war is not a pick and choose target of opportunity. In WW2, the allies attacked every European country by day and night with carpet bombing destroying everything and everybody, civilian, military, religious targets with no regard for collateral damage. The same occurred in WW1 with Woodrow Wilson and the armies attacking the Kaiser and his captured nations.

Some months ago, the little emperor of North Korea fired 3 test missiles. Two short range missiles were successful but the long range ICBM type mysteriously dropped into the sea minutes after take off. Probably some kind of coincidence. Do you really think that America's Star Wars techology was ended with Ronald Regan being termed out of office?

Israel along with the US has been developing weapons for which only a few know the capabilities. Israel to preserve itself from annihilation will have to destroy Iran's heads in Tehran before the little Hitler and his Mullahs are ready to attack or use their allies to destroy the Jewish democracy.

Israel has no need for their many LARGE nuclear stockpile to destroy Iran's war making capabilities. Just 2 or 3 MOAB bombs can completely destroy the city of Tehran. Without a head, it is highly unlikely the war chiefs of this Islamic dictatorship will persist in destroying anyone.

Israel has nukes and in truth was responsible for the original concepts of the power of the atom. They have kept their nuclear weapons sheathed as a deterrent but Islam's theft of the infidels invention must be stopped before it is begun.

Your view of mankind's war making ideations is a bit skewed as the human brain is wired for aggression and power through war.

Israel is a country of about 5 million men, women and children who are faced with 300,000,000 warriors of Allah. Take a look at the following YouTube video which gives a little indication that Israel's survival over the centuries is either a very interesting coincidence or a miracle.

YouTube - Judios - Jews

HistoricalDavid

As far as I know, Israel doesn't have MOABs, nor the capability to deliver them so far, neither are three of them are not enough to destroy even a small part of a 7 million+ pop city, and neither would such genocide be particularly desirable either morally or strategically.

Of course, Mr Khalif, ignoring his insinuations that the NK ICBM was shot down by Star Wars, is not the only one of questionable mental health here.

Image:Dresd 4.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._July_2006.png

Observe those two pictures, Asim. In the first, the husks of many buildings remain standing, and the picture is one of general destruction. In the latter, buildings are either levelled or left standing. In other words, the Israelis were damn accurate with their hits, and considering the far lower 'allowance' of tonnage-on-target they'll have all the way to Iran, they're likely to be far more picky. Etc... not to mention your interesting interpretation of a western audience as 'nuke-willing'.

Mustafa Kalif

Israel has weapon systems of which only a few know. The fact that you have no knowledge that Israel doesn't possess MOAB explosive devices nor any large cargo planes capable of delivering 21000+ bombs is highly dubious.

Do you know what types and amounts of speciall weapons systems the US stores in Israel just in case a major war reaks out in this area?

Do you know how many MOAB bombs it would take to destroy a city the size of Tehran? Tehran is 254 sq m with a metropolitan population estimated in 2006 to be 7,354,000.

Here are the basic facts about the MOAB:

* It is currently the largest conventional bomb (as opposed to a nuclear bomb) in the U.S. arsenal.
* The bomb weighs 21,000 pounds (9,525 kg).
* The bomb is 30 feet long and 40.5 inches in diameter.
* It is satellite-guided, making it a very large "smart bomb."
* It bursts about 6 feet (1.8 meters) above the ground.
* Each above the ground blast could level several miles in diameter.

The idea behind an "air burst" weapon, as opposed to a weapon that explodes on impact with the ground, is to increase its destructive range. A bomb that penetrates the ground and then bursts tends to send all of its energy either down into the ground or straight up into the air. An air burst weapon sends a great deal of its energy out to the side. Several of these planes dropped from cargo planes would very closely duplicate the effects on the city of Hiroshima.

You speak of the moral and strategic implications of such an attack by Israel. If you have ever read the Torah, you will find that the Hebrews were instructed to destroy every living being when entering Canaan because of the evil of the people who threw their own children into the fires of their god. Not unlike those in Iran today.

Strategically the destruction of Tehran would give the world the ability to breathe again without the immediate threat of an Armageddon. Even the Arab countries would not have a problem with a Shi'ite yoke over Islam.

As far at the North Korea ICBM failing so quickly after take off, I just have problems bellieving in coincidences. This has nothing to do with mental health but facing that there are many things going on that none of us has any idea.

You might just be willing to wait until Iran has a nuclear weapon and feels the time has come to wipe Israel off the map with alll its inhabitants.

I personally don't feel like being destroyed like sheep while waiting at the gas chamber doosr once again.

Alamgir

Meaning what exactly?

There is no threat of an 'Armageddon' coming out of Tehran. There is alot more to Iran and Iranians than Ahmedinejad and nuclear issues.

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HistoricalDavid

Ah yes, the ol' absence of evidence is not evidence of absence line...

And yes, thank you for pointing out that delivering 20,000lb+ ordnance over 1,500 miles into hostile territory is actually quite difficult.

I wasn't aware that the US stored any weapons for itself at all in Israel.

The fact that you're not specifying what weapons they are, makes me quite suspicious.

The first five points I already knew. The last point is bona fide BS - even a 1kt small nuke couldn't do that.

HYDESim: High-Yield Detonation Effects Simulator

Thanks, but I don't need a lesson in elementary bomb placement. Fact is - even with better distribution, they cannot match the energy released by a 16kt nuke.

PS Hiroshima was a 580m airburst as well.

Please don't insinuate that I am ignorant 'cause I haven't read all of some book which some people say is the word of God.

And quite what your point is, escapes me. If you think the Torah has any moral authority with me, think again.

Strategically, the destruction of Tehran does not address the existence of the rest of the Iranian military.

You don't think the Russians would pipe up about such a weapon system?

It's really not much of a coincidence. Considering the US was estimating a 20% failure rate for its own tried-and-true ICBMs during the Cold War, and that the history of Russian and American space exploration is littered with tragedies of malfunctioning rocketry, it's really not inconceivable that the ONE launch of a prototype ICBM from a technologically and economically totally impoverished nation could malfunction. Not to mention that a US constellation of anti-ICBM satellites would be unbelievably expensive and require scores of launches and thus be all-but-impossible to hide, especially from purposefully prying eyes such as the Russians.

That would be wonderful rhetoric if it was written correctly and had any basis in what I said. As it is, you're just straw-manning that because I don't support genocide, I support the French stance. Come back later, troll?

I advocate tough action of hitting the right military targets at the right time, but my views are thus rather uninteresting.

Indeed, to further your vivid idea of a second Holocaust, how would destroying Tehran with MOABs - ROFFLES - prevent this?

Mustafa Kalif

It means that in Torah Judaism there is a moral imperative but only in rare instances in which you, your family, your people or your Torah's existence is threatened with destruction; those poised to kill you must be destroyed. (Like being being threatened with words of nuclear threat like 'wiped off the face of the earth.')

That's interesting.... Iran and Iranians have no democratic voting power to remove their Imams and Ahmedinejad from office to avoid nuclear war. The laws and actions of Iran and Iranians have nothing to do with the actions by their religious clerics and their mouthpiece dictator.

In a 2006 WALL STREET JOURNAL op-ed, Princeton's Bernard Lewis writes: "There is a radical difference between the Islamic Republic of Iran and other governments with nuclear weapons. This difference is expressed in what can only be described as the apocalyptic world view of Iran's present rulers."

"In Islam as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time -- Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil, however these may be defined."

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad "and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the US about nuclear development by Aug. 22," which this year corresponds "to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427.

This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to 'the farthest mosque,' usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1).

"This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind."

Mustafa Kalif

It is interesting that you find no published evidence of absence of proof for what has been known for decades. During the Cold War, the US government used Israel as their depot for many weapon systems. They considered Israel to be a Middle East buffer zone with military weapons storage for US troops. After visiting my niece in Israel and speaking with her husband in military intelligence and who could not relate what Israel had in its arsenals. He did state that advanced technology did exist and were protected by multiple overlapping security systems. My niece's husband now serves as adviser to conservative MK Avigdor Liberman. The man PM Olmert had to bring into his coalition because of Liberman's seats.


The implication is that no one outside of a very closed group knows exactly what Israel's military possesses. I am not one of those on the inside.

If you think Israel cannot deliver these large payloads over 2500 miles into Iran, you might want to remember Osiraq, a 40 MW light-water nuclear materials testing reactor (MTR) which in 1981 was destroyed in Iraq. Yes that was also an impossibility but it did happen. And not to mention Entebbe and that successful raid which went undetected.

If I had any idea of what military technology Israel possess, I would be dead as well. Israel it seems is one of the main innovators for American weaponry advancements which indicates that Israel is not without its own resources.

Your partially correct in that ONE small nuke couldn't do that but several MOABs exploding simultaneously at given distances send immense shock waves over large areas and well beyond the immediate destruction zones. These energy waves could likely flatten most structures and humans in the the metropolitan area of Tehran.

HYDESim: High-Yield Detonation Effects Simulator

Your single nuclear explosion site above admits that 'the displayed rings are "idealized"; that is, no account is taken of terrain, urban density, ground type, weather conditions, and so on." I am talking about multiple devices at predetermined distances significantly multiplying the kill zone.

Maybe you don't know that the Massive Air Ordnance Blast (MOAB) bomb is not simply TNT. The Pentagon presented it to the media on the eve of the U.S. attack on Iraq in mid-March of 2003. Neither MOAB nor the Divine Strake exists in isolation, of course, but rather within a vast arsenal inventory. Detonated above ground level, the Massive Air Ordnance Blast weapon is a hugely powerful bomb that creates destruction by depleting a large area beneath it of oxygen as it uses atmospheric resources within its detonation shell. Divine Strake is the ground penetrator complement, offering a conventional weapons option to destroy hardened facilities beneath the surface. The extent to which either of these two weapons is particularly effective is not as important as the extent to which an enemy believes they pose unacceptable risk of catastrophic damage in a military confrontation.

I don't have to think again as it is not your moral authority which is important. We are speaking of Israel and who for the most part lives by the moral imperative of the Torah and self preservation. This imperative was ignored during WW2 and it almost brought an end to our people.

Unlike a future time when Iran will have the nuclear weapons and delivery systems capable of retaliation, a preemptive attack before that time would leave little response for a headless military. On today's war fields, great numbers of soldiers are meaningless as seen in both Iraq invasions. The Iraqi soldiers were totally unprepared for modern smart weapons and well trained American soldiers. Both Iraq wars were totally disproportionate to the number of enemy soldiers.....

1) I don't think Russia is really anxious for Iran to have functional nuclear capabilities as Russia also knows that they too are on the target of infidels.
2) A direct clash between Israel and the USSR which took place on July 30th 1970 and resulted in the downing of 5 Russian MiG-21s, two at the hands of Israeli Phantoms. Russian military technology has has historically shown to be inferior to anything produced by the US and Israel.

I believe you have just hit the mark on this one. North Korea has recently touted their nuclear capabilities and missile systems from a country lacking any technology except that supplied from old and poorly maintained Russian surplus.

Do you really believe that the US military has revealed all of its latest and newest military technology for the US public? It might just be that prying eyes have seen hundreds of the non-existent US technology that folks all over the world have interpreted as UFOs. Even experienced commercial pilots have reported seeing and recording radar sightings which cannot be explained away as cranks.

I hope that we will be very pleasantly surprise when the time comes for those non-existent Star War weapons can be used to protect the world from destruction.

Name calling is clear evidence of your true feelings. I am not a troll but obviously anyone who doesn't agree with you must be one. You support the French stance of inviting all the Islamics into your home where they are isolated from the general population, burn your cars and plan to destroy you. I do not advocate genocide under normal circumstances except when you and your world is in danger of religious genocide. You are entitled to your opinion but apparently you feel that I am not and therefore a 'troll.'

Are you a radical war monger advocating the HITTING of the right military targets at the right time? It seems that your uninteresting views are apparent to all. You would wait until your civilization is devastated and then strike one Ossama Hussein Barack. It seems that this war is not against one man or one country but in truth against a faith that openly advocates enslaving mankind or killing all those who do not wish to SUBMIT to them or their moon god. It seems silly to debate with you when you already have already been turned into one in Orwell's book 1984.

The mere fact that these Jihadists for Muhammad understand that those who retaliate with force against them cause them to retreat back to their caves but those who placate and make resolutions or sign peace treaties gives them the impetus to fight you as you hide your head in the sand!

HistoricalDavid

Convenient. Tenth-hand, shadowy, unspecific anecdotes. Convenient.

Even more convenient.

You could be a writer in the techno-thriller/ Clancy mould, you know.

But you're confidently stating Israeli and US state secrets on an online forum?

Balls. Osiraq had 2,000lb bombs carried by F-16s - FIGHTER JETS - escorted by F-15s, flying low and fast, into territory whose owner was facing the other way fighting Iran. Extremely impressive, but in no way comparable to several lumbering C-130s - RATHER BIGASS CARGO PLANES - carrying MOABs over Tehran. Entebbe is more apt a comparison and another extremely impressive Israeli raid, into a backward African country.

'These energy waves'? 'Given distances'...? Nonsense. The destructive radius of a MOAB in an URBAN environment is maybe that of a large building, but the fact that it contains 8ish tons of explosives means that even with the efficiency of more numerous bombs, you'd be hard pressed to even POSSESS the requisite number of MOABs, let alone DELIVER them.

As I said, look at the simulator I posted. Key in 0.02 tons of TNT, and it's really not that spectacular an explosion compared to the size of a 7 million pop city. Could someone else chime in to say that the idea of destroying a city with MOABs is ridiculous...

HYDESim: High-Yield Detonation Effects Simulator

Their estimates would have to be out by more than an order of magnitude to invalidate it. Yes it is a single explosion - just visualise the displayed rings duplicated over the city by however many MOABs you can delude yourself into thinking Israel has, let alone can deliver...

How many devices are we talking about?

I'm talking hard physics here. There is simply not the energy content available to destroy so much. I'm not familiar with the specific energy content of the MOAB's high explosives, but it would have to be hundreds of times higher than TNT for it

I.e. more suited to anti-personnel and soft-target duties rather than mass urban destruction.

If you weren't spamming by copy-and-pasting, I'd say, save your typing energy.

It goes away from self-preservation into genocide. Stop twisting stuff, for heaven's sake.

Self-preservation would be going after the nukes or nuke facilities.

Ah, pre-emptive genocide, I didn't think of that. Death solves all problems - no man, no problem, eh?

A headless military is not a totally ineffective military - demonstrated by the world's terrorist networks - and I'm sure the Iranians would prepare contingency plans for emergency retaliation, considering that central command is ALWAYS one of the first targets of US bombing.

SRBM technology, I might add. Not ICBM.

I didn't say the US military would want to reveal it, I said that it would be impossible for them to hide it - specifically a constellation, comprising of dozens if not hundreds of satellites, capable of intercepting ICBMs?

Can you show me where the tens, if not hundreds of bilions of dollars, not to mention the dozens if not hundreds of rocket launches, have been sourced from?

What has this got to do with Star Wars?

I will be pleasantly surprised too, but wanting something to exist is not the same as it actually existing.

More straw-manning.

You're a troll because you're deliberately and ridiculously distorting my opinions.

It's not name-calling, it's a statement of fact. Think of it as an impersonal, technical term to describe your debating style.
...Er, I don't support the French stance. YOU think I do... but that's 'cause you're strawmanning faster than c.
You know very well that's not the reason you're a troll. In addition, you're a victim-player.
Where the hell are you coming from... That's not radical warmongering, radical warmongering is what you advocate - using unsuitable weapons which don't exist in sufficient quantity to kill a load of innocent people, along with the actual targets in the first place.
Er, again, I don't think I said this anywhere. The 'right time' is not now nor is it after my civilisation has been devastated.

You're just making it up as you go along.

Don't you dare mock someone else's religion for advocating enslavement or moon-god worshipping until you read your own holy book.

Cruelty and Violence

And quite what Mr Orwell has to do with the discusasion, I don't know. I do like the book, though. What did you think about the vitality of a brutality-driven state as opposed to a placation-driven state of Brave New World?

...You really are making my opinions up as you go along...

Parihaka

Quite right, my apologies

durtyburd

This is false. If Israel intended your nuclear annihilation, then they've had ample opportunity to do it in the last two decades. The plain fact is that Israel does not want to destroy its neighbors. If Israel did want to destroy its neighbors, then it would have already done so.