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Old 08-23-2006, 10:10 AM   #46 (permalink)
Swift Sword
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman
William, you of all people need to read this, and really internalize it. It is by the greatest 'orientalist' (as they used to be known) of all time: Bernard Lewis. He knows more than anybody else about this subject. his credentials are unimpeachable, and there simply exists no greater voice anywhere in the world.

So, please read and understand what he has to say on this subject, the rationality of Iran's leader (and leader he is, however much we would all wish him to be checked and controlled by all thos oh-so-reasonable ayatollahs).
Bluesman and Historical David,

Dr. Lewis is, if I am reading him correctly, painting Mr. Ahmadinejad as Apocalyptic and millenarian therefore he is not capable of being a rational actor viz classical detterence, MAD, etc.

If I were to rebut Dr. Lewis, I would ask him to explain the restraint which the Iranians have demonstrated with their existing BW and CW WMD capability, delivery systems and proxies. This historical fact seems to suggest a different conclusion than the one Dr. Lewis puts forth.

Now if we buy Dr. Lewis' idea that Apocalyptic millenarian views impede rational thought and behavoir regarding classical deterrence and the state system, what are we supposed to think about President Bush's publically stated belief in a religious doctrine which espouses Apocalyptic and millenarian ideology? Afterall, he has fired up two wars and is spending money on them like...well...the World is going to end tommorrow.

Hope you have a nice afternoon,

William
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Last edited by Swift Sword : 08-23-2006 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 08-23-2006, 10:42 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
Because when talking about any theocracy, betting on their rationality is... irrational?
I do not think that this point of view would stand up to historical scrutiny.

The United States currently maintains diplomatic liasons with at least two nominally theocratic entities and it is their rationality as actors which makes this possible.

Over the course of history, there have been some very impressive theocractic leaning states with long lists of great accomplishments such as Pharonic Egypt (up until the XX'th Dynasty, at any rate) and the Byzantine Empire which could be construed as rational actors in the modern, political science sense of the term (modestly loosely, of course).

Do not underestimate theocratic forms as religion and politics are two wheels of a cart.

Regards,

William
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:39 AM   #48 (permalink)
Anon
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Originally Posted by Swift Sword
I do not think that this point of view would stand up to historical scrutiny.
I do. Unless you're going to try to tell me that the Crusades were rational, or that not only leaving Vlad the Impaler in power to counter-balance the Muslims- but indeed giving the church's blessings- was rational.

Was burning witches at the stake rational?

How about the inquisition?

How about the accusation that DaVinci was a practitioner of witchcraft?

Religion on it's very face is irrational IMO.
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Old 08-26-2006, 14:47 PM   #49 (permalink)
Ray
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[quote=M21Sniper]

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Was burning witches at the stake rational?
Maybe, if wood was in short supply on a cold wintry night.

Quote:
Religion on it's very face is irrational IMO.
My sentiments exactly!
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