War on Iran - Page 3

Popgun · 04-15-2006, 14:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Ho hum...no, i WAS talking about that part.

Yield sir, our superiority is unassaillable...

What does he MEAN by it though? It doesn't make any sense. Spell it out for me.

**Shek** · 04-15-2006, 14:11 PM

Neoconservatism was a term coined by the original neocons. However, much like liberal is now a dirty word in US politics in many cases, opponents of neocons have tried to make it a dirty word, and neocons are often considered part of the "Israel lobby," since many prominent neocons are Jewish. So, using neocon in a derogatory sense is often a veil for anti-Semitsm - not always, but sometimes.

As far as Bush being a neocon, there is much debate. Reagan represents the emergence of the neocons at the Presidential level, and while you can trace some similarities, you can also trace many differences. Also, the cabinet positions are not a clean sweep of neocons. In fact, State has been led by two non-neocons. I'm not sure how you would label Colin Powell, but certainly not a neocon. Condi Rice is a realist, with Scowcroft from Bush 41's administration being considered her mentor.

So, the election of Bush, while supported by the neocons, cannot be considered as a vote for neocons since Bush isn't truly defined by neoconservatism, and not all of the cabinet posts are held by neocons.

Bluesman · 04-15-2006, 14:14 PM

Popgun (Okay, I almost always twist other posters' tails by being playful with their names, or making up my own - like 'skidmark' or 'Hoss' or 'cheezwhiz', but I'm just havin' fun, and NO, it doesn't mean I'm superior, but neither does your sniffy 'pathetic' close out this discussion.), some of neoconservatism's critics - hey, YOU'RE one, aren't you? - have specifically pointed out the Jewish connections of the movement, and have made much of this nothing. As you don't seem to even be aware of that fact, I suppose you're not one of 'em, as I had assumed you were, and it was that which I was lampooning.

But it also marks you as not knowing a helluva lot about a term that you are very free with.

Bluesman · 04-15-2006, 14:15 PM

DAMMIT! shek beat me to the post and answered for me. Well, the only thing left to do is post sumpin' from Wikipedia:

Quote:

Some opponents of neoconservatives have sought to emphasize their interest in Israel and the relatively large proportion of Jewish neoconservatives, and have raised the question of "dual loyalty". A number of critics, such as Pat Buchanan, have accused them of putting Israeli interests above those of America. In turn these critics have been labeled as anti-Semites by many neoconservatives (which in turn has led to accusations of professional smearing, and then paranoia, and so on).

Some neo-nazi conspiracy theorists such as David Duke have attacked neoconservatism as advancing 'Jewish interests.' Classic anti-Semitic tropes have often been used when elaborating this view, such as the idea that Jews achieve influence through the intellectual domination of national leaders. Similarly, during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, left-wing magazine AdBusters published a list of the "50 most influential neocons in the United States", noting that half of these were Jewish (see [10]).

Many prominent neoconservatives are not Jewish, among them Michael Novak, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Frank Gaffney, and Max Boot. Neoconservatives in the 1960s were much less interested in Israel before the June 1967 Six Day War. It was only after this conflict, which raised the specter of unopposed Soviet influence in the Middle East, that the neoconservatives became preoccupied by Israel's security interests. They promote the view that Israel is the United States' strongest ally in the Middle East as the sole Western-style democracy in the region, aside from Turkey (George W. Bush has also supported Turkey in its efforts to join the European Union).

Commenting on the alleged overtones of this view in more mainstream discourse, David Brooks, in his January 6, 2004 New York Times column wrote, "To hear these people describe it, PNAC is sort of a Yiddish Trilateral Commission, the nexus of the sprawling neocon tentacles".

In a similar vein, Michael Lind, a self-described 'former neoconservative,' wrote in 2004, "It is true, and unfortunate, that some journalists tend to use 'neoconservative' to refer only to Jewish neoconservatives, a practice that forces them to invent categories like nationalist conservative or Western conservative for Rumsfeld and Cheney. But neoconservatism is an ideology, like paleoconservatism and libertarianism, and Rumsfeld and Dick and Lynne Cheney are full-fledged neocons, as distinct from paleocons or libertarians, even though they are not Jewish and were never liberals or leftists" (see [11]).

Lind argues that, while "there were, and are, very few Northeastern WASP mandarins in the neoconservative movement", its origins are not specifically Jewish. "...[N]eoconservatism recruited from diverse farm teams including Roman Catholics (William Bennett and Michael Novak) and populists, socialists and New Deal liberals in the South and Southwest (the pool from which Jeane Kirkpatrick, James Woolsey and I [that is, Lind himself] were drawn)"

2DREZQ · 04-15-2006, 14:19 PM

Whatiz(unpronouncable)name in Iran is full of crap, and the Iranian people know it. Unless we have SOLID PROOF that they are less than 2 years from making a real, deliverable weapon, I still say go for the soft-kill. Let this twit bluster himself right out of power. He's got to have as many domestic enemies as he has supporters.

Prediction # 2 (well, maybe not a prediction...) There will come a day when Iran having WMD's is not a major concern.

Bluesman · 04-15-2006, 14:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2DREZQ

Whatiz(unpronouncable)name in Iran is full of crap, and the Iranian people know it. Unless we have SOLID PROOF that they are less than 2 years from making a real, deliverable weapon, I still say go for the soft-kill. Let this twit bluster himself right out of power. He's got to have as many domestic enemies as he has supporters.

Prediction # 2 (well, maybe not a prediction...) There will come a day when Iran having WMD's is not a major concern.

FERVENTLY and STRENUOUSLY disagree. Time is what the Iranians need, and it works against us. We have wasted far too much of it already, and granting any further time (TWO YEARS!?!

) is folly.

To utterly cede the initiative like that and merely WAIT for him to make a political blunder, and then HOPE his replacement is any better is like waiting for Hitler to slip in the shower and break his neck, just after he's invaded Poland. It MIGHT happen...but it's a sucker bet.

Popgun · 04-15-2006, 14:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

some of neoconservatism's critics - hey, YOU'RE one, aren't you? - have specifically pointed out the Jewish connections of the movement, and have made much of this nothing. As you don't seem to even be aware of that fact, I suppose you're not one of 'em, as I had assumed you were, and it was that which I was lampooning.

Ah well, you threw me off by being unable to spell the word 'Jew' properly.

I am, obviously, not a fan of neoconservatism, but that certainly does not make me any kind of anti-Semite. Must be useful for neocons, though, to be able to sling that accusation at anyone who criticizes them....

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-15-2006, 14:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

WTF, we have a treehouse!?!?!?!?!?

I've oppressed my full quota of 3d world minorites dammit, why don't I get to play in the treehouse!?!?!?!

This sucks...

Tehehehehe.

Well, if you would just take a minute to get your eyes off of her ***** and poke your head out of your Porche, you just might see it.

Bluesman · 04-15-2006, 14:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popgun

Ah well, you threw me off by being unable to spell the word 'Jew' properly.

I am, obviously, not a fan of neoconservatism, but that certainly does not make me any kind of anti-Semite. Must be useful for neocons, though, to be able to sling that accusation at anyone who criticizes them....

Must be convenient to use a term as a pejorative when you do not fully understand its implications, in order to discredit anyone you disagree with.

Bluesman · 04-15-2006, 14:30 PM

But it was my pleasure to school you a bit on what you are pretty sure you're no fan of.

You're welcome, sonny.

Popgun · 04-15-2006, 14:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

But it was my pleasure to school you a bit on what you are pretty sure you're no fan of.

You're welcome, sonny.

Quote:

In a similar vein, Michael Lind, a self-described 'former neoconservative,' wrote in 2004, "It is true, and unfortunate, that some journalists tend to use 'neoconservative' to refer only to Jewish neoconservatives, a practice that forces them to invent categories like nationalist conservative or Western conservative for Rumsfeld and Cheney. But neoconservatism is an ideology, like paleoconservatism and libertarianism, and Rumsfeld and Dick and Lynne Cheney are full-fledged neocons, as distinct from paleocons or libertarians, even though they are not Jewish and were never liberals or leftists"

Just so we are clear – I agree with this guy. This is who I mean when I criticize neoconservatives. OK?

Bluesman · 04-15-2006, 14:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popgun

Just so we are clear – I agree with this guy. This is who I mean when I criticize neoconservatives. OK?

Awesome. Your horizons have expanded, and you at least know who you are and are not referring to when you use a term that you but dimly understand.

That's progress.

dalem · 04-15-2006, 18:58 PM

I have decided I am a Daleocon. As near as I can figure you're a Daleocon if you have a partiality towards curvy brunetttes, Coke Zero, and pepperoni pizza. Oh, and a Daleocon thinks the A-10 production lines should be restarted and run forever, that Mars should be colonized immediately, that the only diplomatic notes suitable for puff-chested dictators the world over are scrawled in black marker on the noses of Predator-fired Hellfire missiles, and that every Defense Department briefing should be started with a reading of the anecdote of the GW1 M1A1 Abrams stuck in the mud shooting through sand berms to blow up T-seventy-sh!tbags.

-dale

Anon · 04-15-2006, 19:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popgun

What does he MEAN by it though? It doesn't make any sense. Spell it out for me.

He said "Joos". Slang for "Jews".

Make more sense now Sir Issac?

Anon · 04-15-2006, 19:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Well, if you would just take a minute to get your eyes off of her ***** and poke your head out of your Porche, you just might see it.

You ask too much sir...

04-15-2006, 14:11 PM	#32 (permalink)
Shek *Military Professional* Moderator Join Date: 02-23-05 Location: Krblachistan Posts: 7,982 Country:	Neoconservatism was a term coined by the original neocons. However, much like liberal is now a dirty word in US politics in many cases, opponents of neocons have tried to make it a dirty word, and neocons are often considered part of the "Israel lobby," since many prominent neocons are Jewish. So, using neocon in a derogatory sense is often a veil for anti-Semitsm - not always, but sometimes. As far as Bush being a neocon, there is much debate. Reagan represents the emergence of the neocons at the Presidential level, and while you can trace some similarities, you can also trace many differences. Also, the cabinet positions are not a clean sweep of neocons. In fact, State has been led by two non-neocons. I'm not sure how you would label Colin Powell, but certainly not a neocon. Condi Rice is a realist, with Scowcroft from Bush 41's administration being considered her mentor. So, the election of Bush, while supported by the neocons, cannot be considered as a vote for neocons since Bush isn't truly defined by neoconservatism, and not all of the cabinet posts are held by neocons. __________________ "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

04-15-2006, 14:14 PM	#33 (permalink)
Bluesman WAB Bartender *Defense Professional* *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-24-04 Location: Vacaville, CA. Posts: 7,520 Country:	Popgun (Okay, I almost always twist other posters' tails by being playful with their names, or making up my own - like 'skidmark' or 'Hoss' or 'cheezwhiz', but I'm just havin' fun, and NO, it doesn't mean I'm superior, but neither does your sniffy 'pathetic' close out this discussion.), some of neoconservatism's critics - hey, YOU'RE one, aren't you? - have specifically pointed out the Jewish connections of the movement, and have made much of this nothing. As you don't seem to even be aware of that fact, I suppose you're not one of 'em, as I had assumed you were, and it was that which I was lampooning. But it also marks you as not knowing a helluva lot about a term that you are very free with. __________________ "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory." - George Orwell

04-15-2006, 14:19 PM	#35 (permalink)
2DREZQ Contributor Join Date: 08-04-03 Posts: 704	Whatiz(unpronouncable)name in Iran is full of crap, and the Iranian people know it. Unless we have SOLID PROOF that they are less than 2 years from making a real, deliverable weapon, I still say go for the soft-kill. Let this twit bluster himself right out of power. He's got to have as many domestic enemies as he has supporters. Prediction # 2 (well, maybe not a prediction...) There will come a day when Iran having WMD's is not a major concern. __________________ USS North Dakota

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04-15-2006, 14:30 PM	#40 (permalink)
Bluesman WAB Bartender *Defense Professional* *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-24-04 Location: Vacaville, CA. Posts: 7,520 Country:	But it was my pleasure to school you a bit on what you are pretty sure you're no fan of. You're welcome, sonny.

04-15-2006, 18:58 PM	#43 (permalink)
dalem Lord High Hullabalooster *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-23-04 Location: Columbia Heights, MN Posts: 8,766 Country:	I have decided I am a Daleocon. As near as I can figure you're a Daleocon if you have a partiality towards curvy brunetttes, Coke Zero, and pepperoni pizza. Oh, and a Daleocon thinks the A-10 production lines should be restarted and run forever, that Mars should be colonized immediately, that the only diplomatic notes suitable for puff-chested dictators the world over are scrawled in black marker on the noses of Predator-fired Hellfire missiles, and that every Defense Department briefing should be started with a reading of the anecdote of the GW1 M1A1 Abrams stuck in the mud shooting through sand berms to blow up T-seventy-sh!tbags. -dale

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