Ray

India has been saved by the bell, so to say.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Sameer

Varman


How can Iran suddenly declare the NPT to be invalid when they have continued to follow it through and sign furthur deals etc, monitoring mechanisms etc since the revolution..

Legally speaking, the time lag matters as well, had Iran done so in 1977, it would have been a different matter but suddenly in 2006, to claim that it is invalid will not hold much weight and this is why they are not doing so...

ajaybhutani

well said.. the fact that they didnt disagree with the NPT for so many decades itself says about their acceptance of it.

Dreadnought

Gautam, I am not at all familiar what goes on between India and Pakistan and I will be the first to say that with exception of what flashes across CNN. So whatever the problem may be I dont know perhaps you can enlighten me.

I know briefly of one problem and that is Khan. And Agreeably its a big problem.

Outside of this problem with Khan. Why do India and Pakistan dislike each other so much?

I do agree that anybody that breaks the NPT should go in front of the IAE.
I dont agree with the punishment that Khan was given for his actions as i recognize that you disagree with it as well. They should have faced the very same as everybody else will.

India should do whatever is in their best interest. As im sure Pakistan will do the very same. I think we all agree that Iran having a nuclear weapon is not in the best interest of anybody but Iran.

With regards to the comments made by Iranian President, well its not a hidden secret that he is a dickhead afterall. But lets put things in prespective, I have many jewish friends and I guess we all agree on the fact that Iran doesn't have the balls 2 face Israel. They know Israel will kick their ass to stone age which theys showed in the Arab-Israeli war

Yeah I agree I would love to see Israel stomp the snot out of them because of the remarks and threats they make. I have friends that are Jewish but they dont speak about this. Perhaps they do amonst themselves I dont know.

As I get time I will read more about India and Pakistan. I could probably ask my professor in school since he happens to be from I believe India. But he may not be so quick to give his opinion on politics. But in the mean time could you tell me briefly why they fight so much?

Neo

Dreadnought,

Much has been said about AQ Khan and we'll keep reading about him till he's dead.
You see, despite his clandestine operations, he's considered a national hero for his role in our nuclear programme and he's been under house arrest ever since he confessed.
His network is now unveiled and somehow US has accepted it, so he poses no threat to anyone anymore.

US could have arrested AQ Khan years ago while he was in Holland years ago, yet they decided to let him go. Bad call? Maybe, but he's our problem now and we're dealing with it.

__________________
Administrator @ Defence.pk

Samudra

The first to go would be China.
I'd love to see the almighty USA go against China.

When is the USA going to confront China for violating NPT?

Neo

Sam,
What about US?
Didn't they turn a blind eye when Israel stole plutonium from France?
Did you see any sanctions, trade ban or political isolement?
US kept giving heavy finincial and military aid to Israel even after the world had learnt about the Israeli Nuclear plan.

Vaman

That is convoluted logic. That someone doesnt disagree with something does not mean one agrees with it.

Gautam

Well there is no simple answer and I will give you my side, (Keep in mind that there always 2 sides 2 a story, so it is up 2 u DreadNought to believe whichever side u want 2)

Pakistan used 2 be a part of India till 1947. When it became apparent to the British that their Raj was nearing its end in India they tried 2 play already fighting All India Muslim League led by Mohd Jinnah (Founder of Pakistan) against the All India National Congress.

A mixture of these two forced these 2 parties so apart that by 1947 it was evident that india would be partitioned into two, i.e. a Muslim dominated Pakistan and a secular India.
The irony here was that the only muslim majority state i.e. Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu ruler, and that Kashmir was a princely state which under the treaties of time negotiated by British rested the right with the ruler of a princely state to join whichever union i.e. India or Pakistan it wanted.

15th of Aug 1947, India got its freedom but still the ruler of Kashmir Maharaja Hari Singh was undecided. Pakistan in 1948 started infiltrating Kashmir valley with soldiers expecting local muslims would revolt and join Pakistan.
But things did not go acc to plan, Maharaja Hari Singh did not have the force to protect his state from these infiltrators and thus signed the treaty of accession with India which allowed Indian soldiers to fight in Kashmir and drive out these infiltrators.

Now for 50 years Pakistan has disputed the signing of this document etc etc

Indian army managed to drive out infiltrators, but Pakistan managed to hold on to 1/3rd of Kashmir known as POK Pakistani occupied Kashmir today.

This was also precceeded by rioting as around 20 million Hindus, Sikhs & Muslims crossed borders as the partition had left many in wrong areas. It is estimated that more than 2 million Hindus, Sikhs & muslims died in the riots which further alienated these 2 nations.

This was followed by a stalemate war in 1965 when Pakistan tried 2 act smart, followed by a humialating defeat in 1971 when an army company of 600 soldiers led by Major Kuldeep Singh Chandpuri managed to defeat a 4000 strong infantry backed by 40 tanks.

Hatred was further fueled by the insurgency which began in 1989 in Kashmir which has cost more than 50,000 lives till today.

Pakistan made yet another unsuccessful attempt in 1999 in Kargil, which was again foiled by the Indian army. Rest is history.

It all comes down 2 Kashmir but what one thing Pakistan never understands is that
a) India will never let go of Kashmir
B) Paksitan may be able to fool the world by preaching that these so called terrorists are freedom fighters but it will never be able 2 fool us for 2 believe Pakistan on anything would be a mistake.

This is a summary of all the events since independence.

Dreadnought

Thanks, Atleast I feel a little better now just to browse the threads on this subject. Before I wouldnt even browse the thread because I didnt have any real knowledge about what transpires between the two.

Vaman

Created new thread to discuss Iran :
The mess that is Iran...OR...

Let this thread be on Indias position on the issue.

lemontree

A few errors, that I'm correcting.
The date of Pak invasion in J&K was 20th Oct 1947 and not 1948.

We would have driven them out of the remaining protion too, had Nehru not referred the matter to the UN.
The casulty figures are in the region of 6 million on both sides.
Major KN Chandpuri was commanding 'A' Coy, 23 Punjab at Longewal. A rifle coy consists of about 136 men and not 600. The PA formation faced by him was 18 Infantry Division consisting of:-
- 206 Infantry Brigade
- 51 Infantry Brigade
- 38 Cavalry (armoured regiment)
- 22 Cavalry (armoured regiment)

The armour was chewed up by the 2 x Hawker Hunters of the IAF (they was later joined by 2 more hunters).

__________________

Cheers!...on the rocks!!

ajaybhutani

Lets say you inherit a company from your father today..5 years ago your father ageed with a commitment with its competitors for no-competition in a certain sphere.
If you disagree with it now.. it makes sense.. but if you wait for 10 years and then say i never said yes to it.. you are acting like an opportunist.. ..
now just replace copany with iran, father with older regime signing NPT etc and you(son) with new regime..

Vaman

This isnt a proper example because, from a legal stand point a company is a seperate entity from its owners. So it doesnt really matter who inherits what.
Even in this case if I were to argue on the basis of contract stipulations, under contract law, a mutually agreed upon exchange of consideration must take place (ie. an exchange of something of material value). If I dont recieve that consideration or estimate it to be in shortfall, the contract would be void.
If I had to take a circuitous route, I'd buy 49% share into a competitor (doesnt matter how small), rebadge my products under his brands and sell in the same markets.

However examples such as these are of only anecdotal value because in these cases all entities must apriori submit to a "higher authority" (in this case the law of the land) before entering into contracts or formulate arrangements that assume those laws.

In the international context, there is no "higher authority" that a country submits to. There are only mutually agreed upon arrangements. Much of the international frameworks would not even be valid if commonly accepted standards such as equality of all members were to be applied. The P-5 wouldnt exist as it discriminatory neither would the NPT.

Sameer

I think that this was in the movie Border as well right? or is that a different incident?