Education Part ll

**Leader** · 06 Oct 05,, 00:57

Originally Posted by Broken

Perhaps I should have said "element" of American culture.

An element of a subset of American culture. An element I never saw at my high school for example.

**dalem** · 06 Oct 05,, 02:18

Why not bring back orphanges in a big way? 40 years of letting unfit parents raise barbarians has proven to be a f*cking failure, hasn't it?

-dale

**Leader** · 06 Oct 05,, 02:46

Originally Posted by dalem

Why not bring back orphanges in a big way? 40 years of letting unfit parents raise barbarians has proven to be a f*cking failure, hasn't it?

-dale

Just as long as their parents get sit in jail until their children come of age.

**gilgamesh** · 06 Oct 05,, 23:04

Originally Posted by Leader

"Parents who are involved in their kids education, promote the value of education, and set a good example generally have far more sucessful children than parents who do not."

I don't think it's a coincidence that parents that physically put up money to pay for their children’s education are more involved. It's all to easy to forget your paying for your child’s education when the government quietly slips the money out of your pay check.

"This is compounded by the uniquely American culture where smart kids are labeled "nerds", "geeks", and are socially shunned."

I don't think its the product of "American culture." Such environment exist almost exclusively in public elementary and high schools.

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Their Kids to School?

Written By: Alan Bonsteel, M.D.
Published In: School Reform News
Publication Date: November 1, 2004
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Public school teachers in urban areas are far more likely than city residents in general to send their children to private schools, according to a new analysis of 2000 Census data by researchers led by Denis P. Doyle, who previously analyzed 1980 and 1990 Census data.

While just 12.2 percent of U.S. families send their children to private schools, that figure rises to 17.5 percent among urban families in general and to 21.5 percent among urban public school teachers, almost twice the national average.

The difference in the choices made by public school teachers and the general public were especially striking in America's largest cities, where public schools are often the most troubled. For example, in the New York City area, 32.5 percent of public school teachers send their children to private schools, compared to 22.7 percent of the general public. In Chicago, 38.7 percent of public school teachers, versus 22.6 percent of the general public, send their children to private schools. In Los Angeles, private schools are chosen by 24.5 percent of public school teachers and 15.7 percent of the public.

Also noteworthy are the differences in cities where school choice programs have seen their greatest successes. In Milwaukee, for instance, home of the nation's oldest publicly funded voucher program, 29.4 percent of public school teachers send their children to private schools, versus 23.4 percent of the general public.

In Washington, DC, home of the nation's newest publicly funded voucher program, 26.8 percent of public school teachers send their children to private schools, versus 19.8 percent of the public. One of the revelations that helped pass the DC voucher legislation was the disclosure in the news media that the politicians opposing school choice in that city did not enroll their own children in District of Columbia public schools.

"We can assume that no one knows the condition and quality of public schools better than teachers who work in them every day," note the authors of the new study. "If these teachers are more likely than the general public--which may not have nearly as much information or expertise in these matters--to send their own daughters and sons to the public schools in which they teach, it is a strong vote of confidence in those schools."

However, if public school teachers choose not to send their own children to the public schools in which they teach, "then we might reasonably conclude that those in the best position to know are signaling a strong 'sell' about public education in their communities," contend the researchers in the September 2004 study,"Where Do Public School Teachers Send Their Kids to School?" issued by the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation.

In San Francisco, outspoken school choice opponent Jill Wynns, a school board commissioner, dismissed any effort to draw conclusions about the quality of public schools from the data. Wynns suggested many public school educators might choose a private school because of religious beliefs.

Wynns acknowledged her oldest son attended a private school. She denied any conflict between her public stance and her own actions, saying her son had been recruited to attend a private school through a summer program, with the small school having advantages for him.

"It was a choice I let him make; he created the opportunity," she told the San Francisco Examiner.

The Fordham study makes clear that--in the absence of publicly funded school choice--the ability to take advantage of such an "opportunity" is a function of income. For example, only 10.3 percent of families with incomes less than $42,000 choose a private school for their children, compared to 35.6 percent of families with incomes exceeding $84,000.

"We support a teacher's right to choose a private school," school choice advocate Howard Fuller told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "We simply ask them to support the same freedom for low-income families."

The authors note there has been little change in the data on this subject over the past 20 years. Doyle, the study's lead author, is cofounder of SchoolNet, Inc., a Web-based school improvement company. His coauthors are economist Brian Diepold and SchoolNet academic specialist David DeSchryver, who is also managing editor of The Doyle Report.

Financial support for the study was provided by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute; the American Education Reform Council, formerly based in Milwaukee and now part of the Arizona-based Alliance for School Choice; and California Parents for Educational Choice.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15818

**pingingpuss** · 07 Oct 05,, 03:36

Originally Posted by dalem

"Won't", "can't", whatever. If he's that much of an outlier, keep him out of the way of normal kids.

No, the education system didn't fail this boy. His mother and his father (wherever he is) failed this boy.

-dale

Definatley i agree his parents did fail but he should have been graduating each yr if he doesnt hav the skills such as reading and writing. Thats where the system failed him.. I dont know about america but i know in australia school are ment to contact dept of welfare in cases like this maybe he would be beter suited in a foster home. He is just a kid.

**pingingpuss** · 07 Oct 05,, 03:39

Originally Posted by pingingpuss

Definatley i agree his parents did fail but he should have been graduating each yr if he doesnt hav the skills such as reading and writing. Thats where the system failed him.. I dont know about america but i know in australia school are ment to contact dept of welfare in cases like this maybe he would be beter suited in a foster home. He is just a kid.

srry typo im gunna throw this dam keybooard lol..He should not have been graduating.

**Leader** · 07 Oct 05,, 03:41

"Thats where the system failed him"

But why did the system fail him? It wasn't bad teachers I bet. It was a system that is more concerned with making kids "feel" good rather then demanding and rewarding achievement.

**Bulgaroctonus** · 07 Oct 05,, 03:53

Here, Leader, I seem to agree with you. Our educational system, one might even say our society has become far too relaxed and tolerant of academic failure. Standards should be kept high and the competitive spirit should be drilled into kids head. We do really need to return to the 'old school' style.

**Shek** · 07 Oct 05,, 15:31

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Their Kids to School?

Written By: Alan Bonsteel, M.D.
Published In: School Reform News
Publication Date: November 1, 2004
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Public school teachers in urban areas are far more likely than city residents in general to send their children to private schools, according to a new analysis of 2000 Census data by researchers led by Denis P. Doyle, who previously analyzed 1980 and 1990 Census data.

While just 12.2 percent of U.S. families send their children to private schools, that figure rises to 17.5 percent among urban families in general and to 21.5 percent among urban public school teachers, almost twice the national average.

The difference in the choices made by public school teachers and the general public were especially striking in America's largest cities, where public schools are often the most troubled. For example, in the New York City area, 32.5 percent of public school teachers send their children to private schools, compared to 22.7 percent of the general public. In Chicago, 38.7 percent of public school teachers, versus 22.6 percent of the general public, send their children to private schools. In Los Angeles, private schools are chosen by 24.5 percent of public school teachers and 15.7 percent of the public.

Also noteworthy are the differences in cities where school choice programs have seen their greatest successes. In Milwaukee, for instance, home of the nation's oldest publicly funded voucher program, 29.4 percent of public school teachers send their children to private schools, versus 23.4 percent of the general public.

In Washington, DC, home of the nation's newest publicly funded voucher program, 26.8 percent of public school teachers send their children to private schools, versus 19.8 percent of the public. One of the revelations that helped pass the DC voucher legislation was the disclosure in the news media that the politicians opposing school choice in that city did not enroll their own children in District of Columbia public schools.

"We can assume that no one knows the condition and quality of public schools better than teachers who work in them every day," note the authors of the new study. "If these teachers are more likely than the general public--which may not have nearly as much information or expertise in these matters--to send their own daughters and sons to the public schools in which they teach, it is a strong vote of confidence in those schools."

However, if public school teachers choose not to send their own children to the public schools in which they teach, "then we might reasonably conclude that those in the best position to know are signaling a strong 'sell' about public education in their communities," contend the researchers in the September 2004 study,"Where Do Public School Teachers Send Their Kids to School?" issued by the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation.

In San Francisco, outspoken school choice opponent Jill Wynns, a school board commissioner, dismissed any effort to draw conclusions about the quality of public schools from the data. Wynns suggested many public school educators might choose a private school because of religious beliefs.

Wynns acknowledged her oldest son attended a private school. She denied any conflict between her public stance and her own actions, saying her son had been recruited to attend a private school through a summer program, with the small school having advantages for him.

"It was a choice I let him make; he created the opportunity," she told the San Francisco Examiner.

The Fordham study makes clear that--in the absence of publicly funded school choice--the ability to take advantage of such an "opportunity" is a function of income. For example, only 10.3 percent of families with incomes less than $42,000 choose a private school for their children, compared to 35.6 percent of families with incomes exceeding $84,000.

"We support a teacher's right to choose a private school," school choice advocate Howard Fuller told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "We simply ask them to support the same freedom for low-income families."

The authors note there has been little change in the data on this subject over the past 20 years. Doyle, the study's lead author, is cofounder of SchoolNet, Inc., a Web-based school improvement company. His coauthors are economist Brian Diepold and SchoolNet academic specialist David DeSchryver, who is also managing editor of The Doyle Report.

Financial support for the study was provided by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute; the American Education Reform Council, formerly based in Milwaukee and now part of the Arizona-based Alliance for School Choice; and California Parents for Educational Choice.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15818

An interesting article; however, while this demonstrates correlation, it doesn't provide any statistical data on casuality, and the background report revealed that this was solely a correlation study based on census data. Are there any followup articles that explore causality?

**BenRoethig** · 07 Oct 05,, 17:34

Originally Posted by Bulgaroctonus

Here, Leader, I seem to agree with you. Our educational system, one might even say our society has become far too relaxed and tolerant of academic failure. Standards should be kept high and the competitive spirit should be drilled into kids head. We do really need to return to the 'old school' style.

That's because our education system has become very politically correct. I personally believe we should have two distinct tracks when they enter high school: technical and college prep. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but a lot of kids don't have the god given talent to be anything but a mechanic or construction worker.

**dalem** · 07 Oct 05,, 19:27

Originally Posted by BenRoethig

That's because our education system has become very politically correct. I personally believe we should have two distinct tracks when they enter high school: technical and college prep. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but a lot of kids don't have the god given talent to be anything but a mechanic or construction worker.

My eldest nephew found himself in this conundrum. My family is a pretty uppity family education-wise, we all read voraciously, have tons of books, all went to college, blah blah blah. My oldest sister's first kid hates reading. Always has. Very bright but always got into lots of trouble, etc. He didn't really want to go to college and probably felt the pressure to do so.

He liked cooking though and is now a 6 month internship away from graduating from some good cookign school in CT.

Bottom line is that he is/was a poster child for the kind of early vocational/apprenticeship type of track you describe. College is not for everyone.

-dale