Pakistan’s quest for national identity

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 08 Sep 05,, 16:46

Originally Posted by lemontree

There is a thread that I had started last year to counter a few trolls. Go through the link below, it would be hard for the average West Pakistani to believe that their army had actually been so brutal.
Pakistani Genocide

See the article and photos in the above posted thread.

In the above thread you will see a newspaper photo of a PA soldier checking for circumcision.

HK,
There is a world of a difference in what happened in East Pakistan and the much fabricated 'atrocities' in Kashmir. You will never find the mass graves and bodies in Kashmir that were common in Bangladesh in 1971.

Talking to people on Bangladesh, 1971 gets very very circular after a bit. It boils down to this. There is no evidence of mass genoicide or mass rapings, though I have no doubt some war crimes were committed, since they happen in any war, especially if discipline breaks down in the ranks or you have some undisciplined soldiers. This is not at all uncommon. You will find every single war has had breaks of the Geneva Conventions. It's as much to do with training a soldier to kill and manipulate their minds if need be so that they're filled with hatred for their enemy that will cause some to act out like that.

Having said all that. One picture of a West Pakistani Army soldier checking some guys dik for circumcision is hardly evidence of mass selective targeting of Hindus, is it?

That soldier looks pretty Bengali to me, and it's you guys who say the West Pakistani are tall and fair, the Bengalis are short and dark, your words, not mine.

Yes, yes, you've also shown a picture of small slaughtered people. That would not be difficult to find even in todays South Asia, even in Kashmir.

Oh, and then there's pictures of dead bodies who people claim they're all Hindu, as if that's a creditable source. Dont suppose the person who sold the pictures thought he could get more money by trumpeting forth a Hindu genocide? How did he know they were Hindu?

Yes yes, then there's RJ Rummel's "calculation". Hardly based on fact, just newspaper reports, majority of then Indian and Bengali.

Then there's all the reporters like Aubrey Menon, the Indian-Irishman, or Simon Dring, the reporter who got a nice job owning his own Bangladeshi TV channel, financed by the Awami League; he's the one who reported all the mass killings of Bangladeshis.

These can hardly be called creditable witnesses. I know that war crimes happened, but noone presents any evidence for the scale of war crimes you claim occurred. It's all just empty words until you find some solid proof.

The most scientific of all proofs has come from a Bengali, herself. Professor Sarmila Bose, from George Washington State University, USA, has done research on the 1971 War. Her reputation is impeccable, and she's made a highly reputable and creditable name for herself in the USA. I would say that her research is worth a thousand of those by Rummel, or Dring or Menon or any Bangladeshi or Indian reporter, who obviously had a vested interest in making the events of 1971 look as gruesome as possible. Here is some snippets of her report. Incidentally, she has been to the sites in Bangladesh where such events are supposedly to have taken place, interviewed as many relevant people concerned as possible. A copy of her paper can be found here

http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

4.. Contradictory evidence on targeting of Hindus

To the West Pakistani authorities as well as many Bengali Muslims,
Bengali Hindus were a suspect population on the basis of their religious
affinity to India. In a civil war in which the secessionists were allied
with India, the Hindus of East Pakistan were in a very vulnerable
position.[33]

However, the case studies reveal contradictory evidence on the
targeting of Hindus. The attack on old Dhaka during 'Operation
Searchlight' appears to have been on the basis of religion. While Hindu
professors were accused of fomenting trouble at Dhaka University, and
Professor Guhathakurta (a Hindu) was asked his religion before being shot,
the other faculty member killed with him was Professor Maniruzzaman (a
Muslim). In fact, as three relatives were killed with Professor
Maniruzzaman, four Muslims and one Hindu were killed at that particular
building that night.

The villagers of Khulna who were fleeing to India via Chuknagar in May
say they were doing so due to harassment - but by local Bengali Muslims,
not the West Pakistani military. Local Bengali Muslims also appear to have
gained the most materially by the distress sales of the Hindu refugees, as
also from the loot from the dead at Chuknagar.

One male Hindu refugee, Nitai Gayen, who survived the shooting at
Chuknagar, offered this as explanation of why he was targeted: "I don't
think they targeted us (male refugees) because we were Hindus. I think
they targeted us because they considered us the 'enemy'. We were going to
India. Some of us would return, and we would not return empty-handed."[34]
In the end, in spite of the vulnerability of the Hindu population, the
conflict involving West Pakistanis, Biharis, loyalist Bengalis and
pro-liberation Bengalis remained predominantly a war of Muslims against
other Muslims.
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

8.. No rape of women by Pakistan army found in any of the cases of
conflict

In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan army in the
case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women. While
this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this study,
it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was made along
with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or in some cases
even in written form in the Bengali literature. However, when Bengali
eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were
interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also
testified that no rape had taken place.
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

Does the message behind quote remind you of any Indians on here?

There is also the cultivation of an unhealthy 'victim culture' by some
of the pro-liberationists - hence the people of Chuknagar complain at
being left out of the official history books and vie to establish their
village as the site of the "biggest mass killing" in the country, and
people are instigated at the national level to engage in a ghoulish
competition with six million Jews in order to gain international
attention. All of these tendencies hamper the systematic study of the
conflict of 1971 and hinder a true understanding of a cataclysmic
restructuring in modern South Asian history.

Further research

The military action under 'Operation Searchlight', undertaken on 25-26
March, the raid on Dhaka University by the newly arrived governor General Tikka Khan, was condemned by Lt. Gen. A. A. K. Niazi.

In another evidence of a difference of opinion within the army about the execution of this operation, Nazrul Islam, then a student at the Art College, has written about how a group of soldiers shot him and two others in their hostel next to the EPR camp on 26 March, only to be followed by a second group of
soldiers who expressed shock that they had been shot, gave them water and
encouraged the two of them still alive to seek help and live.[13]

"One thing is clear - the atrocities did not just go one
way, though Bengali Muslims and Hindus were certainly the main
victims."[32] Many of the Bengali Muslim and Hindu victims are also found
to have suffered at the hands of other Bengalis. (Sisson & Rose)

Based on in-depth case studies of several specific incidents of
violence in 1971, this paper presents a systematic analysis of the context
and nature of violence in that conflict. The analysis uses data collected
during 2003-2005 in Pakistan and Bangladesh from site visits, interviews
with survivors, eye-witnesses and participants, and related material such
as images and memoirs (many in the Bengali language). The case studies are
from different districts, different moments of the time-line of the
conflict, and involve different groups of perpetrators and victims. They
are drawn from my ongoing project '1971: Images, Memory, Reconciliation',
and provide the basis for an analytical approach that challenges both the
silence and the unsubstantiated rhetoric that have obscured the study of
the conflict of 1971 to date.

"It speaks volumes for the discipline of the West Pakistan army," wrote
Mascarenhas, "that its officers were able to keep the soldiers in check
during what was to them a nightmare of 25 days."
[9] Shil in Haider, ed. (1996).
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 08 Sep 05,, 16:54

The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.

During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.

They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country’s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.

Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.

Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic, told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.

Based on her extensive interviews with eyewitnesses, the study also determines the pattern of conflict as three-layered: West Pakistan versus East Pakistan, East Pakistanis (pro-Independence) versus East Pakistanis (pro-Union) and the fateful war between India and Pakistan.

Prof Bose noted that no neutral study of the conflict has been done and reports that are passed on as part of history are narratives that strengthen one point of view by rubbishing the other. The Bangladeshi narratives, for instance, focus on the rape issue and use that not only to demonize the Pakistan army but also exploit it as a symbol of why it was important to break away from (West) Pakistan.
http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/07/nat3.htm

The state department conference referred to can be seen on this URL
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm

There were many interfactional battles between Bengalis and non-Bengalis to account for. The Rahman Report makes it clear 26,000 people died, that's not unreasonable when you consider that 100,000 have been killed in the Iraw War in 1 year using the latest smart technology.

And the comparison with Kashmir is very very genuine. There have been over 60,000 Kashmitis killed by the Indian Army over the last 15 years. The figures, the mental scarring associated with them are just ignored by the shameless Indians on here who just ignore an ongoing brutality of a people who want independence, just like the Bangladeshis in 1971 - Perhaps that's why plebiscite is never held. The outcome will lend more credence to the Kashmiri insurgency if it was officially declared that they support independence (which even your poor MORI poll, conducted by Prakhash, the New Delhi Based research guru, suggests).

**Ray** · 08 Sep 05,, 17:18

Hongkong,

That soldier looks pretty Bengali to me, and it's you guys who say the West Pakistani are tall and fair, the Bengalis are short and dark, your words, not mine.

If that is not a check for religious affiliation, I presume then that that soldier is a passive homosexual in the Pakistani Army.

All Bengalis are not short and dark. Maybe in East Pakistan you found it so. I would not like to go into the reason in case it is a common place observation.

Sharmila Bose likes to be in the limelight. What is the best way to do it? Controversy and debunking issues with not a shard of analytical evidence.

Allegations! The trauma of losing East Pakistan was immense. It debunked the two nation theory, apart from shocking the Pakistanis of the West that the "dark, short, meek Bengalis" could do such a monsterous thing and helped the arch rival India in defeating the valiant Pakistani Armed Forces hands down in such a short span of time! This was more so insulting since it debunked the oft tomtomed slogan - One Moslem soldier is equal to 10 Hindus!

Therefore, it was better to leave things as allegations as also let those who were criminal in their action be freee. Only those who leaft Pakistan in disgrace being at the helm of affairs were kicked around and debased! Niazi, Rao Farman Ali etc.

BTW the Hamdoor Commission was most reluctantly set up. Therefore, the intent of not finding skeletons in the cupboard was evident and to somehow whitewash the issue.

Also to note is that the survial of all govts in Pakistan depends on the Pakistani Army unlike in India. This is an universal fact and much has been written on the same not only in the international media but extensively in the Pakistani media and msot of the time tongue in cheek! Therefore, can anyone condemn the Army and still survive?

Even today's scenario in Pakistan indicates that the Army is calling the shots and Shaukat Aziz is just a facade to indicate Musharraf and the Army is not calling the shots!

History is made and written by men with a purpose. That is why the facts thrown up is never conclusive! Too many angles, too many things to hide under the carpet and things like that.

In India, the Surrender Ceremony is replete with photographs and paintings. I am sure none would be found in Pakistan! History thus after sometimes will have different connotiations and interpretations.

Like, to some Musharraf is doing a fabulous job. To the JEI,he is a quisling!
If JEI ever comes to power, then Musharaf's name would be mud! Would that be a fair commentary on the historical events?

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 08 Sep 05,, 17:58

Originally Posted by Ray

Hongkong,

If that is not a check for religious affiliation, I presume then that that soldier is a passive homosexual in the Pakistani Army.

All Bengalis are not short and dark. Maybe in East Pakistan you found it so. I would not like to go into the reason in case it is a common place observation.

Sharmila Bose likes to be in the limelight. What is the best way to do it? Controversy and debunking issues with not a shard of analytical evidence.

Allegations! The trauma of losing East Pakistan was immense. It debunked the two nation theory, apart from shocking the Pakistanis of the West that the "dark, short, meek Bengalis" could do such a monsterous thing and helped the arch rival India in defeating the valiant Pakistani Armed Forces hands down in such a short span of time! This was more so insulting since it debunked the oft tomtomed slogan - One Moslem soldier is equal to 10 Hindus!

Therefore, it was better to leave things as allegations as also let those who were criminal in their action be freee. Only those who leaft Pakistan in disgrace being at the helm of affairs were kicked around and debased! Niazi, Rao Farman Ali etc.

BTW the Hamdoor Commission was most reluctantly set up. Therefore, the intent of not finding skeletons in the cupboard was evident and to somehow whitewash the issue.

Also to note is that the survial of all govts in Pakistan depends on the Pakistani Army unlike in India. This is an universal fact and much has been written on the same not only in the international media but extensively in the Pakistani media and msot of the time tongue in cheek! Therefore, can anyone condemn the Army and still survive?

Even today's scenario in Pakistan indicates that the Army is calling the shots and Shaukat Aziz is just a facade to indicate Musharraf and the Army is not calling the shots!

History is made and written by men with a purpose. That is why the facts thrown up is never conclusive! Too many angles, too many things to hide under the carpet and things like that.

In India, the Surrender Ceremony is replete with photographs and paintings. I am sure none would be found in Pakistan! History thus after sometimes will have different connotiations and interpretations.

Like, to some Musharraf is doing a fabulous job. To the JEI,he is a quisling!
If JEI ever comes to power, then Musharaf's name would be mud! Would that be a fair commentary on the historical events?

Your wrong on a lot of this. I'll just make some quick points now.

1) Showing a picture of a corpse does not prove a genocice by Pakistan Army. It shows that someone (could have been Bengalis or non Bengali Biharis) murdered them.

2) I would have a hard time believing that all the Pakistani soldiers went round checking people's diks. Even in Prof Bose's report it states that they asked the professor at the university what was his religion. They didnt look at his dik to detemermine it.

3)Your obvious state of arousal at the fall of Pakistani soldiers in such a short span of time, is negating the fact that the West Pakistan Army was at half strength, since its East Pakistan division deserted, the supplies of heavy equipment were unable to get through to the West Pakistani soldiers in East Pakistan and had to be sailed round the tip of India, which took months, and finally that the West Pakstani forces were facing the Bengali civilians, half of the Pakistan Army which deserted, and the whole of the Indian Army compounded by the fact they were operating on unfamiliar terrain which the East Pakistanis knew well. Yes, what a grand victory. There's no victory in a hollow victory unless you're short on victories.

4) Sarmilla Bose needs no attention. She is the grand daughter of Subhash Chandra Bose, the Bengali freedom fighter, who is widely credited as a hero to many Indians and Bengalis alike for his role in the removal of the British from India. There's recently been made a Bollywood film about him. Bose-The forgotten hero. Do you honestly think, she needs attention?

PS Hamdoor commission is just the Pakistan version of events. I'm not subscribing to them either. I would put more credence and creditability in the research by Professor Bose than in all the COMBINED reports on this liar's paradise of a war.

**Jay** · 08 Sep 05,, 20:27

Originally Posted by Aryan

They were just allegations, and no court or trial looked into him. The man is dead...let him lie in peace.

The first para was the commision report and the second one is allegations. Indeed PA after the report defended their actions saying that it all happnes during war as Bengalis were killing West Pakistani soldiers. Go through the same link, there are tonnes of info there.

HK,
You still kepp on harping about your point. Check Hamoodor Rahman's report, which says that West Pakistan soldiers were involved in killing, maiming and RAPING Bengalis incld then CO Gen.Niazi.

**Ray** · 08 Sep 05,, 20:27

Originally Posted by Hongkongfuey

1) Showing a picture of a corpse does not prove a genocice by Pakistan Army. It shows that someone (could have been Bengalis or non Bengali Biharis) murdered them.

Valid.

It could be died because of lack of food too because it was stoolen by the Pakistani Army!

But it should have been refuted then.

As the Punjabis love to say _ Time, tide wait none (they tend to drop the articles!

)

2) I would have a hard time believing that all the Pakistani soldiers went round checking people's diks. Even in Prof Bose's report it states that they asked the professor at the university what was his religion. They didnt look at his dik to detemermine it.

It was done during the Partition!

Old habit die hard.

But then since you claim Arab descent, you maybe right in your instincts. It could be for other reasons too

Bose loves to be in the limelight as Rushdie.

So am I to understand that what Rushdie wrote about Prophet Mohamed and his religion is true? Fine.

That way the faithfreedom forum would become the most truthful forum in the world!

3)Your obvious state of arousal at the fall of Pakistani soldiers in such a short span of time, is negating the fact that the West Pakistan Army was at half strength, since its East Pakistan division deserted, the supplies of heavy equipment were unable to get through to the West Pakistani soldiers in East Pakistan and had to be sailed round the tip of India, which took months, and finally that the West Pakstani forces were facing the Bengali civilians, half of the Pakistan Army which deserted, and the whole of the Indian Army compounded by the fact they were operating on unfamiliar terrain which the East Pakistanis knew well. Yes, what a grand victory. There's no victory in a hollow victory unless you're short on victories.

Chum, you understand little of strategy or tactics or of the military. Half strength? Could you elaborate? What in your opinion is full strength?

When one plans the defence of one's country, all contingencies are catered for. One does not crank in excuses in the defence policy and excuses do not become the bottom line and bedrock of a country's defence policy and organisation.

If after so many month of insurrection in East Pakistan before India acted, the Pakistani Army could not understand what will befall them, then it shows total ineptness, lack of professionalsim, poor training and a horrendous failure of civil and military intelligence and the lack of higher direction of war.

With such a callous attitude to defence of a country, what did you expect? Victory? It justifies the demeaning defeat and the historical capture of 90,000+ Prisoners of War by the Indian Army!

If the Bengalis deserted, it proves that there were good reasons to do so. Like rape and pillage, right? Did your friend Sharmila cater for this issue? No soldier just upstakes and changes side for the heck of it and that too when one does not know the final outcome and from where his next pay cheque shall come!

(4) Sarmilla Bose needs no attention. She is the grand daughter of Subhash Chandra Bose, the Bengali freedom fighter, who is widely credited as a hero to many Indians and Bengalis alike for his role in the removal of the British from India. There's recently been made a Bollywood film about him. Bose-The forgotten hero. Do you honestly think, she needs attention?

I am not aware as to whose granddaughter she is. But I will take it that you know.

Rajiv Gandhi is the grandson of Nehru. So, does it make him an intellect and a sage? He was unknown till he was pushed into politics! Are you sugggesting that greatness is hereditory? That would be the typical village idiot mentality!

How many of Jinnah's reltaives can you mention as great? How many know if Gandhi has how many grandsons? I don't know and it is not an earthshaking information for me either.

So, in other words, it means you have to work to achieve greatness.

I will concede that being from a famous family helps and what can be better than being controversial!! Use your family name and show how 'independent' a thought you have without the baggage of parochialism! The bolder your staement, the bolder is the headline in areas where it is muisc to the ear. Truth is not material! It can always be left to the spin of the media to interpret it right.

Like what I love to quote about spinning by the media and others:

Chhoro, mat maro.

and

Chhoro mat, maro!

Just the questrion of the comma!

If you were to make statment, who'd care? But if you were Jinnah's grandson, it would make a difference but it would not mean that you are a sage or that you are telling the truth. Or would it? Of course the gullible would be wrapped up hook, line and sinker and you would become a hero to them!

PS Hamdoor commission is just the Pakistan version of events. I'm not subscribing to them either. I would put more credence and creditability in the research by Professor Bose than in all the COMBINED reports on this liar's paradise of a war.

[/QUOTE]

Ah good old Bose's being credible!

Then may I put credibilty on Rushdie about the Prohet Mohamed as the sole truth and Allah's own words and reject the Koranic intepretation as a fictional pulp?

If that is OK, then so be it. Amen or should I say Amin?

I leave it to you!

**Ray** · 08 Sep 05,, 20:32

That soldier looks pretty Bengali to me, and it's you guys who say the West Pakistani are tall and fair, the Bengalis are short and dark, your words, not mine.

I would have a hard time believing that all the Pakistani soldiers went round checking people's diks.

Hongkong,

Two quotes from you!

and one quote from me:

It was done during the Partition!

Old habit die hard.

But then since you claim Arab descent, you maybe right in your instincts. It could be for other reasons too

Looks Pretty Bengali to you?

Wonder if that is the reason for checking penises!

But then as I said, you are the expert.

**Jay** · 08 Sep 05,, 20:37

Chum, you understand little of strategy or tactics or of the military. Half strength? Could you elaborate? What in your opinion is full strength?

LMAO

Sir, thats the last thing I'm expect Hongkong to reply. And I bet you would really love his reponse.

Have fun!!

**Ray** · 08 Sep 05,, 20:44

Jay,

He may have some good response.

However, I will let it first be seen by Lemontree.

Even the Colonel might chip in, who knows?

Actually Hongkong educated me. I did not know that Sharmila Bose is Subash Bose's grandchild. All I know is that she is widely quoted in the Pakistani media. I thought she was another Arundhuti Ray.

These half and half mixed parentage) Bengalis!

Rather mixed up both!

Even so, I will check it out.

**lemontree** · 09 Sep 05,, 07:40

I have already replied to HKF's post (that he double posted) in the thread below...
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...210#post134210

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 09 Sep 05,, 08:16

Originally Posted by Ray

Originally Posted by Hongkongfuey

1) Showing a picture of a corpse does not prove a genocice by Pakistan Army. It shows that someone (could have been Bengalis or non Bengali Biharis) murdered them.

Valid.

It could be died because of lack of food too because it was stoolen by the Pakistani Army!

But it should have been refuted then.

As the Punjabis love to say _ Time, tide wait none (they tend to drop the articles!

)

Refute what? A picture of a corpse? It was a war!! People die. That's just idiotic.

Originally Posted by Ray

2) I would have a hard time believing that all the Pakistani soldiers went round checking people's diks. Even in Prof Bose's report it states that they asked the professor at the university what was his religion. They didnt look at his dik to detemermine it.

It was done during the Partition!

Old habit die hard.

But then since you claim Arab descent, you maybe right in your instincts. It could be for other reasons too

Bose loves to be in the limelight as Rushdie.

So am I to understand that what Rushdie wrote about Prophet Mohamed and his religion is true? Fine.

That way the faithfreedom forum would become the most truthful forum in the world!

Pakistan didnt have an army at Partition, genius.

A very lame comparison. First, you need proof that the Shamila Bose you are talking of who blasphemed and upset you is the same Professor Shamila Bose who carries out serious research in America. Secondly, try and understand this, comments on Gods/Prophets = Opinion, Research (on the 1971 war) = Systematic analysis based on fact, not personal opinion. Read her report. It clearly has a lot of interviews with Hindus themselves, even though it was a Muslim vs Muslim war. There is no other creditable independent research done on the Bangladesh War.

Originally Posted by Ray

3)Your obvious state of arousal at the fall of Pakistani soldiers in such a short span of time, is negating the fact that the West Pakistan Army was at half strength, since its East Pakistan division deserted, the supplies of heavy equipment were unable to get through to the West Pakistani soldiers in East Pakistan and had to be sailed round the tip of India, which took months, and finally that the West Pakstani forces were facing the Bengali civilians, half of the Pakistan Army which deserted, and the whole of the Indian Army compounded by the fact they were operating on unfamiliar terrain which the East Pakistanis knew well. Yes, what a grand victory. There's no victory in a hollow victory unless you're short on victories.

Chum, you understand little of strategy or tactics or of the military. Half strength? Could you elaborate? What in your opinion is full strength?

When one plans the defence of one's country, all contingencies are catered for. One does not crank in excuses in the defence policy and excuses do not become the bottom line and bedrock of a country's defence policy and organisation.

If after so many month of insurrection in East Pakistan before India acted, the Pakistani Army could not understand what will befall them, then it shows total ineptness, lack of professionalsim, poor training and a horrendous failure of civil and military intelligence and the lack of higher direction of war.

With such a callous attitude to defence of a country, what did you expect? Victory? It justifies the demeaning defeat and the historical capture of 90,000+ Prisoners of War by the Indian Army!

If the Bengalis deserted, it proves that there were good reasons to do so. Like rape and pillage, right? Did your friend Sharmila cater for this issue? No soldier just upstakes and changes side for the heck of it and that too when one does not know the final outcome and from where his next pay cheque shall come!

Using bold type wont make your writing any less idiotic

Lets look at some facts about East Bengal fighting.

Approx. 70,000 men of the line regiments of Pakistan Army were deployed
The distance from 'home' was almost 1,200 by air all of it over Indian airspace
The actual distance as far as logistics went was over 2,200 miles by a V shape route - This was by sea sailing from Karachi past Indian territorial waters to Sri Lanka and then sailing north again past Indian territorial waters to Chitagong. The tenous nature of this supply route sailing in hostile waters with the threat poised from the bigger Indian navy and possible interdiction is self evident.
Pakistan's ability to project forces and sustain them at distances is even limited today never mind 35 years ago. We don't have the massive airlift capability of USAF
The operational area was tropical, lowlands, marshy, criss crossed by rivers. Bengal is essentialy a delta region and ideal for irregular warfare
The population of East Bengal was more then West Pakistan - Near the 70 million mark
Pakistan Army was reduced to half its manpower in 1971, when the East Pakistani part of it deserted and melted into the Mukti-Bahini.

These are facts and you can verify them if you want - Bar slight adjustment in figures they reflect the reality - A reality that was a nightmare for any officer in command of Pakistan forces esp. when Indian joined in the fray.

Just as a comparison Iraq has a population of 34 million yet 150,000 men of the army of a super power are stuck and having problem just controlling the insurgency. The environment in Iraq suits regular forces, desert - Where everything can be seen and there is not much undergrowth to give cover to insurgents.

I can only imagine the problems they would have in a tropical delta region esp. if the population was double of Iraq ( 70 million ) with a hostile neighbour helping out the insurgents. The US had tasted this type of fighting in a region not to dissimilar .. Vietnam and we all know what happened there.

To put things in perspective what would happen if 70,000 Indians were fighting a country of 70 millon people in say Vietnam or Azerbaijan. Both are about the same distance East Bengal was from Pakistan. Now lets assume there are 70,000 Indians in Vietnam who on top of fighting the insurgents get attacked by China .. What would happen? Bear in mind China would have strategic advantage in being next door to Vietnam. How long would Indian last, 1,200 miles away from home, being shot from behind, sides by local insurgents and from front by regular Chinese Army?

Even the US Army would have lost. It was a hopeless situation the moment India attacked. Gen. Niazi had two options to fight on for a few more weeks and then give up or to think of the lives of his men and surrender. After all exactly what would be the plan be? To fight and then swim back home?

Pakistan Army was reduced to half its manpower in 1971, when the East Pakistani part of it deserted and melted into the Mukti-Bahini. You are suggesting they had 9 months to replace all these soldiers. You cannot double the size of your Army by properly training up civilians in 9 months of conflict when most of your Army is on a war footing, yet that is what you are suggesting. Supplies are limited, including instructors.

I dont believe you can appreciate the reality of the situation and how quickly it all happened, neither can you appreciate the logistics of it all or the cost. Combined with the fact that the leadership at the time was incredibly short-sighted. They did after all hold free and democratic elections and let a pro-independence party run for a state that had a bigger population than their own (regardless of the coming of the 6-point plan that was later proposed). You also cannot seem to fathom that half the Pakistani Army in 1971 was Bengali. These were soldiers trained on an equal footing to the West Pakistani Army, with better knowledge of the ground than the West PA. And your other point about the East Pakistani Army deserting the West Pakistani Army is just dim to say the least because the whole war was about the liberation of the country of East Pakistan. That is why they deserted!!

Originally Posted by Ray

(4) Sarmilla Bose needs no attention. She is the grand daughter of Subhash Chandra Bose, the Bengali freedom fighter, who is widely credited as a hero to many Indians and Bengalis alike for his role in the removal of the British from India. There's recently been made a Bollywood film about him. Bose-The forgotten hero. Do you honestly think, she needs attention
I am not aware as to whose granddaughter she is. But I will take it that you know.

Rajiv Gandhi is the grandson of Nehru. So, does it make him an intellect and a sage? He was unknown till he was pushed into politics! Are you sugggesting that greatness is hereditory? That would be the typical village idiot mentality!

How many of Jinnah's reltaives can you mention as great? How many know if Gandhi has how many grandsons? I don't know and it is not an earthshaking information for me either.

So, in other words, it means you have to work to achieve greatness.

I will concede that being from a famous family helps and what can be better than being controversial!! Use your family name and show how 'independent' a thought you have without the baggage of parochialism! The bolder your staement, the bolder is the headline in areas where it is muisc to the ear. Truth is not material! It can always be left to the spin of the media to interpret it right.

Like what I love to quote about spinning by the media and others:

Chhoro, mat maro.

and

Chhoro mat, maro!

Just the questrion of the comma!

If you were to make statment, who'd care? But if you were Jinnah's grandson, it would make a difference but it would not mean that you are a sage or that you are telling the truth. Or would it? Of course the gullible would be wrapped up hook, line and sinker and you would become a hero to them!

Being from a famous family helps achieve greatness, and being a professor at a good university helps you to produce an accurate and systematic analysis of the war.

Your point is off at a tangent though. I never said that she is correct because she is related to a famous icon. That was my counter to you claiming she just wanted attention - She doesnt need it. She's already in a Bollywood movie. What i said was that she is a professor, she's a Bengali, and she's done a systematic analysis of the war in Bangladesh and could not fine one single bit of evidence of raping, let alone mass rapings by Pakistani soldiers.

Originally Posted by Ray

PS Hamdoor commission is just the Pakistan version of events. I'm not subscribing to them either. I would put more credence and creditability in the research by Professor Bose than in all the COMBINED reports on this liar's paradise of a war.

Ah good old Bose's being credible!

Then may I put credibilty on Rushdie about the Prohet Mohamed as the sole truth and Allah's own words and reject the Koranic intepretation as a fictional pulp?

If that is OK, then so be it. Amen or should I say Amin?

I leave it to you!

This has been answered before. Let me surmize for you for the second time. Comments on Gods/Prophets = Opinion, Research = Systematic analysis based on fact, not personal opinion

**lemontree** · 09 Sep 05,, 10:26

Refute what? A picture of a corpse? It was a war!! People die. That's just idiotic.

The war started in Nov 1971. These photos are of the months between March and November 1971.

Originally Posted by Hongkongfuey
2) I would have a hard time believing that all the Pakistani soldiers went round checking people's diks. Even in Prof Bose's report it states that they asked the professor at the university what was his religion. They didnt look at his dik to detemermine it.

It was done during the Partition!

By that Brig.Ray sir, mean't that both Indians and Pakistanis used this method to check a captured persons religion.

Pakistan didnt have an army at Partition, genius.

That is an ignorant comment. The muslim units that were transfered to Pakistan consituted the Pakistani Army. 7th Bn of the 10 Baloch Regt. gave the guard of honour to Jinnah in August 1947, and the same unit unfurled the Pakistani flag on 14th August 1947. This was a Pakistani Army unit and not Indian or British.
See for yourself, below....
http://orbat.com/site/history/open1/...alochregt.html

The Battalion had the distinction of providing the first guard of honor to the Quaid-I-Azam as he stepped on the soil of Pakistan. Major Shukat Ali commanded the guard of honor. On 14th August the Subedar Major [the battalion’s senior warrant officer] unfurled the first flag at the Governor General’s residence. The flag was later presented to 7/10 Baloch by Quaid-I-Azam.

**lemontree** · 09 Sep 05,, 11:01

Hongkongfeuy,

Lets look at some facts about East Bengal fighting.

Approx. 70,000 men of the line regiments of Pakistan Army were deployed

The correct orbat of the Pakistani Army in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) is as under:-

Eastern Command 5 divisions (2 Ad Hoc, only 5 new bns arrived); 14 brigades (4 Ad Hoc)
- 4 Army Aviation Squadron [LTC L.A. Bukhari]
6 Mi-8, 6 Alouette 3; escaped to Burma
- 6 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment
- Three signals battalions
One or two may have belonged to divisions

9 Division [MG M.H. Ansari] (Jessore)
Sent from Mardan May 1971
- 49 Field Regiment
- 55 Field Regiment
- 211 (I) Mortar Battery

57 Brigade [Brig. Mazoor Ahmad] (Jhenida)
- 18 Punjab
- 20 Baluch
- 50 Baluch
- ?/29 Cavalry

107 Brigade [Brig. Malik Hayat Khan] (Khulna)
- 6 Punjab
- 12 Punjab
- 15 Frontier Force
- 21 Punjab (R & S) (two companies)
- 22 Frontier Force
- 38 Frontier Force

- 55 Field Regiment
15 guns only

- 7 Engineer Company
From 10 Engineer Battalion

- Two M24 Chaffee tanks

14 Division [MG Qazi Abdul Majid] (Dacca)
Permenently stationed Eastern Command
- 22 Baluch
- ? Tochi Scouts

17 Brigade (Comilla)

27 Brigade [Brig. Saadullah]

202 Brigade [Brig. Brig. Salimullah] (Sylhet)
Ad hoc brigade; battalions assigned from other brigades
- 11 Frontier Force
- 30 Frontier Force
- 31 Punjab

313 Brigade [Brig. Rana]

16 Division [MG Nazar Hussain Shah]
Sent from West May 1971

23 Brigade [Brig. Saeed Akhtar Ansari]
Dinajpur-Rangpur

107 Brigade [Brig. Naeem]
3 battalions

205 Brigade [Brig. Tajjamal Hussain Malik]
Hilli; also Field Regt; Mortar Battery; Tank Sqdn; Elements R&S Bn
- 4 Frontier Force
- 13 Frontier Force

36 Division [MG Jamshed]
Ad hoc
93 Brigade [Brig. Qadir Niazi] (Mymensingh)
- 31 Baluch (These guys were captured by my battalion.)
- 33 Punjab

39 Division [MG Rahim Khan]
Ad Hoc

53 Brigade [Brig. Aslam Niazi] (Comilla/Chittagong)

117 Brigade [Brig. M.H. Atif]

314 Brigade [COL Fazal Hamid]
Ad hoc

91 (I) Brigade [Brig. Aata Malik]

The above constitute 1 corps worth of troops approx 35000-45000 troops (rest were paramilitary/razakars/police). None of the above units mentioned above are East Bengal Regiment units. These were 9 battalions that revolted after the killing of civilians started on 25th March 1971. 9 battalions are about 7000-9000 troops (infantry). So your statement of.... "Pakistan Army was reduced to half its manpower in 1971, when the East Pakistani part of it deserted and melted into the Mukti-Bahini.".....does not hold water.

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 09 Sep 05,, 11:02

Yes, 7/10 Baloch regiment was huge, yep, i guess they must have been able to use this method of identification a lot compared to the India Army

**lemontree** · 09 Sep 05,, 11:17

Not really. A lot of Indian units were similarly numbered. The number 10 in "10 Baloch" means that it was the 10th regiment in the seniority of regiments (as per date of raising).