The Untouchables

**~~Lord General~~** · 04 Aug 05, 20:15

Dalit is a caste. Interesting. I googled and this is what I found (only clicked one link): http://www.the-south-asian.com/May20...y_bhardwaj.htm

'Kitte Mil Ve Mahi' ('Where the Twain Shall Meet'), a recently released documentary by Ajay Bhardwaj, a Delhi-based Punjabi film-maker, highlights the fascinating, although little-known, phenomenon of the association of large number of Punjabi Dalits with the shrines and religious traditions of the Sufis.

Punjab, 'the land of the five rivers', is also the land of the Sufis or Muslim mystics. Scores of Sufi shrines or dargahs dot the Punjabi countryside. In 1947, Punjab was partitioned amidst widespread bloodshed, and today there are few Muslims left in the Indian Punjab. Yet, the Sufi shrines in the Indian part of Punjab continue to thrive, particularly among so-called 'low' caste Dalits. Despite being almost entirely non-Muslims, these Dalit devotees are attracted by the egalitarian teachings of the Sufis, whose message of ethical monotheism attracted large numbers of oppressed 'low' castes in search of liberation from the shackles of the caste system sanctified by the Brahmanical religion. (Yoginder Sikand)

AND THEN

DIRECTOR'S NOTE

This documentary is largely located in the Doaba region of Punjab, a cradle of the revolutionary Gadar movement and the Ad Dharmi movement of Dalits. It attempts to portray a cultural/ spiritual universe of Punjab that is little known to the world outside. It may be so, because our understanding of Punjab has largely been conditioned by three benchmarks, the partition, the green revolution and the terrorism in the 80s. We are therefore, oblivious to many other realities that have unfolded and flourished simultaneously. By no yardstick can these realities be seen as some marginal phenomena because they shape the everyday life of lakhs of people in Punjab. Yet, from textbooks to television, they are conspicuous by their absence. What are the implications of this absence, this 'invisibleness' to us as a people, as a society. And what are its implications for those who are living these realities. This documentary, I hope, may lead us to contemplate on questions such as these and many more.

This film contends the dominant perceptions of the economic and spiritual heritage of Punjab. It does so through a people’s narrative on the preservation and regeneration of its ‘little’ traditions, which often appear seamlessly cultural and political.

Travel to the heart of Punjab. Enter a world of Sufi shrines worshipped and looked after by Dalits. Listen to B.S. Balli Qawwal Paslewale, the first generation Dalit Qawwals born out of this tradition. Join a fascinating dialogue with Lal Singh Dil—a radical poet, a Dalit, converted to Islam. Meet the last living legend of the Gadar movement, Baba Bhagat Singh Bilga, who contests the subversion of a common past, while affirming a new consciousness among Dalits, within and beyond Punjab.

The interplay between the constituents of this mosaic brings to light the triple marginalisation of Dalits--- amidst the agricultural boom that is the modern Punjab, in the contesting ground of its ‘major’ religions, and in the intellectual construction of their 'syncretism'.

AJAY BHARDWAJ

**~~Lord General~~** · 04 Aug 05, 20:20

Hey Punjab Ki Fauj, it is widely debated that A: the Jatt caste was created when Guru Gobind Singh Ji formed the 'Panj Pyaaray', hence introducing the Khalsa and all members became Jatt. B: Jatts existed long before Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, and one of the 'Panj Pyaaray' was also a Jatt.

Can you clarify this for me please? And also, I don't know if it is a spelling mistake by some people, but what is the difference between a Jatt - Jutt or Jat? I've read "Jutt and Jat" in various articles in the past, but I know the true spelling for a Punjabi Jatt is J A T T.

**Ray** · 04 Aug 05, 20:41

There are the Majbis, Ramgarias, Bhappas and the Jats amongst the Sikhs, though technically they are not supposed to have a caste system.

**Ray** · 04 Aug 05, 20:51

Originally Posted by Punjab Ki Fauj

I dont know about the Sindhis or the Muhajirs but Punjabi Muslims are largely converted from Rajput and Jatt castes/tribes. Neither of those two groups have been considered as 'untouchables' or 'Dalits'. Rajputs are high castes among Hindus. Virtually all of the Rajput tribes of the Punjab plains became Muslims. It was the small remainder of Rajputs in the Punjab Hills that are still largely Hindus.

Other 'high caste' Punjabis like the Khatris also became Muslims in significant number.

There are of course Chamars and other so-called 'low castes' of Punjabi society that became Muslim but if you think this was all done by the whip you are blissfully unaware of the spread of Sufism in Punjab long before the Mughal empire.

Of course, of course.

Thank heavens that you are not claiming that you all are but descendant of God himself or Allah, if you wish! The Highest of the Highs!

**Neo** · 04 Aug 05, 20:57

This is a very interesting thread...I'm bit embarassed to confess that my knowledge of the casts system is next to nothing

Majority of Pakistanis is Punjabi, evry much linked to India but Balochi's, Sarhadi's and Sindhi's are obviously a different race...you can tell by the look to which province they belong..

**Ray** · 04 Aug 05, 20:57

Originally Posted by Neo

Ray, what's the demographic percentage of untouchables in India?
Do you think that their social situation will improve as India is now developping faster than ever?
It's all matter of changing mentality, isn't it?

Neo,

Today because of reservations or affirmative action as they say in the US, the "higher" castes are the untouchables!

It is very difficult for a non Scheduled Caste to get a govt job since there are over 70% or so reserved seats (except in the Armed forces since merit wins war and not castes) for the so called Untouchables.

So, it the caste system is in full swing in reverse gear! And nearly 60 years have gone passed since Independence and the vote bank politics continues with this charade. In fact, there is a move afoot that reservations should be also in the private sector!

**Neo** · 04 Aug 05, 21:04

Originally Posted by Ray

Neo,

Today because of reservations or affirmative action as they say in the US, the "higher" castes are the untouchables!

It is very difficult for a non Scheduled Caste to get a govt job since there are over 70% or so reserved seats (except in the Armed forces since merit wins war and not castes) for the so called Untouchables.

So, it the caste system is in full swing in reverse gear! And nearly 60 years have gone passed since Independence and the vote bank politics continues with this charade. In fact, there is a move afoot that reservations should be also in the private sector!

What about the youth in India...are they tought to be more tolerant towards lower casts

**Ray** · 04 Aug 05, 21:07

Neo,

You can't state the word Chamar or any such deregatory word or any such stuff.

You will be prosecuted under the Removal of Untouchablity Act.

**Jay** · 04 Aug 05, 21:09

Originally Posted by Neo

What about the youth in India...are they tought to be more tolerant towards lower casts

You go to any metro city, the last thing that they would ask you is your caste. Heck, most people dont care about the castes any more.

But, it is important in rural areas, if you arent a govt officer.

**Neo** · 04 Aug 05, 21:14

Originally Posted by Ray

Neo,

You can't state the word Chamar or any such deregatory word or any such stuff.

You will be prosecuted under the Removal of Untouchablity Act.

**Neo** · 04 Aug 05, 21:19

Originally Posted by Jay

You go to any metro city, the last thing that they would ask you is your caste. Heck, most people dont care about the castes any more.

But, it is important in rural areas, if you arent a govt officer.

So than it's just matter of time since 70 % of the population will be urban within next 25 years.
There is hope!
By the way...I know a few Indians here in Amsterdam, hindu's and sikhs and they're really moderate...I've even served them my home made beef biryani.
I guess Indians and pakistanis living abroad..regardless if they come from urban or rural area's, have dinstanced themselves from such old cultrual values..a good thing in my opinion.

**Ray** · 04 Aug 05, 21:23

Many Hindus and Sikhs eat beef here in India.

Forget about going abroad to eat it.

Actually, the world has changed with all the interaction.

**~~Punjab Ki Fauj~~** · 04 Aug 05, 21:23

Originally Posted by Lord General

Hey Punjab Ki Fauj, it is widely debated that A: the Jatt caste was created when Guru Gobind Singh Ji formed the 'Panj Pyaaray', hence introducing the Khalsa and all members became Jatt. B: Jatts existed long before Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, and one of the 'Panj Pyaaray' was also a Jatt.

Can you clarify this for me please? And also, I don't know if it is a spelling mistake by some people, but what is the difference between a Jatt - Jutt or Jat? I've read "Jutt and Jat" in various articles in the past, but I know the true spelling for a Punjabi Jatt is J A T T.

Jatts are a caste or you could say sub-group of Punjabis (and others) traditionally known for farming and land-owning. Jatts have nothing to do with Sikh Guru's or Sikhism. Jatts are like Rajputs and Brahmans in that they are not a group specific to any particular region. You have Jats from Sindh, Rajathan and Uttar Pradesh alongside the Jats from Punjab and Haryana. The spelling is usually 'Jat' when talking about Muslims and Hindus but when talking about Punjabi Sikhs for some reason it is common to see the word spelt as 'Jatt'.

It was during the time of Guru Gobind Singh that the Jatts of Punjab began to embrace Sikhism in large numbers and become initiated into the Khalsa as Singhs. Of course, Jatts were not the only ones to become Khalsa. People from all different backgrounds took Amrit, but the Jatts have emerged as the largest sub-group of Punjabis to have become Sikhs.

Strictly speaking, Sikhs should not identify with terms like Jatt etc but it is extremely rare to find any human being or society in the World that does not in some form or another hypocritically follow their religion. This is why in Punjab today and among even Sikh diaspora there is a segregation of communities along caste lines, especially in marriages and more disturbing at certain Gurdwaras.

Punjab and Haryana politics is also very heavily influences along caste lines with most Sikh institutions being controlled by the Jatts when previously they had been the almost exclusive domain of the Khatris, particularly those Khatri clans associated with the Sikh Guru's.

Regards,

**Ray** · 04 Aug 05, 21:27

Guru Nanak was a Khattri.

Singh is actually Singha or Sinh meaning a Lion.

Guru Gobind gave them this title so that they were fearless against the Mogul armies.

The distinct 5 characteristics - hair, bangle, comb, underwear and the mini sword were ordained to be worn by Sikhs so that in a battlefield they were distinct for recognition.

**Neo** · 04 Aug 05, 21:34

Originally Posted by Ray

Many Hindus and Sikhs eat beef here in India.

Forget about going abroad to eat it.

Actually, the world has changed with all the interaction.

But I read in some newspaper that selling beef or cow slaughtering is forbidden in India...even denied to Moslim's.

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