The Problem with Israel

**Double Edge** · 29 Oct 11,, 21:13

JAD, back in 2007, in the Iran thread you had one and it turned out pretty accurate

Its looking like status quo to me, will have to look for some more articles on this one.

**zraver** · 29 Oct 11,, 21:59

Originally Posted by bigross86

The state like I said above is a safe haven and refuge for all Jews. It is a state of Jews, by Jews, for Jews. That doesn't exclude others from emigrating to Israel, however, which is something all of you have overlooked so far

No we are well aware of Israeli policy encouraging non-jews to emigrate, its the immigration policy that is important. Only Jews get a free pass. Doesn't matter where in the world the jew is they can come to Israel. But an Arab who still has deed to his land, who got caught out of his home in 48- who can proved he lived there on land his faily had worked for generations cannot come home... even if he is genetically more Jewish than the immigrant who took his home.

I answered both of these already in my reply to Dok. The Israeli Arabs lose no rights, they've been living in the Jewish State of Israel for 63 years now. Things will not magically turn ass over end once the high and mighty Palestinians deign to do us the honor of recognizing a Jewish State of Israel.

But they will never have full rights either... Tuba-Zangaryia is a case in point. This little arab village is Israel's oldest ally, has stood beside the Jews and the Jewish state since the 1930's. Yet recently Israeli rightwingers torched the mosque... To them Israel is for Jews alone.... Ben you seem to be taking this line... willing to accord non-Jews no better than second class status. I'm going to remind you again of where that leads in history... you as a Jew of all people should know better.

Israel is the Jewish homeland. It is our immigration policy and as such an internal matter.

As a matter of international law no it is not, it is an external matter.

All Jews are welcome here. So are other people, but they need to fit certain criteria.

Be thee not Arab seems to be the first commandment...

Once again, I repeat the question: Why do the Palestinians feel they have the right to interfere in internal Israeli policies, specifically our immigration policy or the title of our state? India's official title is the "Republic of India". Let's say I found a nation tomorrow that is recognized by the UN and joins the list of nations. If I recognize the "People's Republic of India" or the "Democratic Republic of India", who have I recognized? Certainly not the India that you and I know...

Maybe becuase Israel taught them how to meddle? I mean what did Israel do after Hamas won an election- israel demanded that the election be thrown out...

**bonehead** · 29 Oct 11,, 22:29

Originally Posted by zraver

No we are well aware of Israeli policy encouraging non-jews to emigrate, its the immigration policy that is important. Only Jews get a free pass. Doesn't matter where in the world the jew is they can come to Israel. But an Arab who still has deed to his land, who got caught out of his home in 48- who can proved he lived there on land his faily had worked for generations cannot come home... even if he is genetically more Jewish than the immigrant who took his home.

But they will never have full rights either... Tuba-Zangaryia is a case in point. This little arab village is Israel's oldest ally, has stood beside the Jews and the Jewish state since the 1930's. Yet recently Israeli rightwingers torched the mosque... To them Israel is for Jews alone.... Ben you seem to be taking this line... willing to accord non-Jews no better than second class status. I'm going to remind you again of where that leads in history... you as a Jew of all people should know better.

Yeah. Lets find someone who's stated sole mission in life is to destroy Israel and give them free reign in the country. There is no doubt the status of Arabs in Israel would improve if they would bring peace instead of bombs.

**Mihais** · 29 Oct 11,, 22:29

Originally Posted by zraver

willing to accord non-Jews no better than second class status. I'm going to remind you again of where that leads in history... you as a Jew of all people should know better.

You can remind.It leads to normalcy,from a historical pov. Some win and keep what they have,some lose and do not.Rights,historical legitimacy etc.. be damned as irelevant.The Jews now ride the horse.They've been the horse.And no,being a poor bastard doesn't teach one empathy,but it does teach one to be ruthless enough to prevent him returning to that status.

No matter how you turn it,the relations between Arabs and Jews are ruined for hundreds of years.That's of course a speculation on my part,but I don't think is so far fetched.Who's guilty,what could have been done to prevent it,why it came to this,is not important anymore.Here they are.
There is no justice in war.And these 2 are at war,a cold one with moments when it sparks.This is how the Arab street feels and this is how the Israeli establishment acts.

So no,I don't think peace will come there in my lifetime.

**zraver** · 29 Oct 11,, 23:44

Originally Posted by bonehead

Yeah. Lets find someone who's stated sole mission in life is to destroy Israel and give them free reign in the country. There is no doubt the status of Arabs in Israel would improve if they would bring peace instead of bombs.

I doubt the status would improve since israeli Arabs are what 1% of the terrorists if that... As I pointed out one Arab villiage- the Jews oldest ally recently got attacked by Jews.

As for Hamas, they are a creation of the situation... They are a vile ruthless responce to a vile ruthless situation. Lets not forget why Hamas enjoys such popularity... they provide social services that Israel and the PA do not. Inside of Gaza they act more like a government of the people than anyone else.

**bigross86** · 29 Oct 11,, 23:55

Originally Posted by zraver

But they will never have full rights either... Tuba-Zangaryia is a case in point. This little arab village is Israel's oldest ally, has stood beside the Jews and the Jewish state since the 1930's. Yet recently Israeli rightwingers torched the mosque... To them Israel is for Jews alone.... Ben you seem to be taking this line... willing to accord non-Jews no better than second class status. I'm going to remind you again of where that leads in history... you as a Jew of all people should know better.

We've argued all the other points before, there's no reason to repeat them yet again,so I'll respond to the couple new points:

Since when do a couple nutjobs that are already being hunted by the police reflect the views of an entire nation and government? Using your logic, a couple rightwingers burning the mosque as an excuse to blame the government means that every single case of violence against an Arab post 9/11 is a reflection of the US policy to eradicate the entire Arab people and Muslim faith. Don't you think you're stretching it a bit?

As a matter of international law no it is not, it is an external matter.

Be thee not Arab seems to be the first commandment.

With regards to second class citizens, the Israeli Arabs have every single right an Israeli Jew has, except the Israeli Arab doesn't have to serve in the army. And this while Israeli Arabs frequently act as a fifth column within Israel, having aided and abetted terrorists from the PLO and Hamas in the past.

Using an Australian 457 Visa, you are only allowed to emigrate if you have a skill the state needs and have the qualifications and knowledge of English needed. That separates people into haves and have-nots, those with qualifications and knowledge of English and those without. Australians are racist bastards!!! What concern is it of Australia if the people wanting to emigrate to Australia don't speak the language most commonly spoken in Australia, de facto the official language?! It's an international matter and I demand that Australia be taken in front of the ICoJ.

People moving to the US with a Green Card lottery need to have enough money to support themselves, or else they need to get someone to fill out an Affidavit of Support in their name. The USCIS has no problem splitting people into haves and have nots, those that fit the criteria and those that don't. Those racist assholes!!! How dare they?! Why should the US care of people wanting to come and live in the US have enough money to ensure that the US isn't importing people that will be a burden upon the US?! It's an international matter and I demand the entire world enact an economical and educational boycott on the US until they change their racist ways.

If Israel is for Jews alone, how were my sister's neighbors in Jerusalem, Chris and Shelly, a devout Christian couple from Texas? How is is that at least half the people living in my dorm building in the middle of one of the highest class neighborhoods in Tel Aviv are Arabs? How is it that there is a pro-Palestinian political advocacy group ON CAMPUS? How is it that Israel is one of the only countries in the region accepting refugees from Darfur? Walk down the street in Southern Tel Aviv, tell me how many white people you see waking the streets. I'll give you a hint: Not many. How is it that wherever you look on campus in the LARGEST UNIVERSITY IN ISRAEL you see Arabs as students and white people as maintenance staff? According to your theory it should be the other way around, no? Well, how is this all possible?!?!

I'll tell you how: You're talking nonsense, and it's out of respect for you that I don't say that you're full of shit. Whatever argument you might think you have falls dead in the water as soon as you bother to actually take a look at life in Israel. In essence, when you claim that Israeli Arabs don't have the same rights as Jews, you're claiming Apartheid against Israel's own citizens. Even though I've done it before, I'll do it again to show you how stupid that analogy is, just look at the chart I'm attaching.

Once you've finished reading the chart which lays down in quite simple fashion all the evidence needed to shoot your Apartheid claim out of the water, I expect you to retract your comment and claim. I won't demand an apology, it's up to you to decide whether you want to be man enough to admit that you were wrong or not.

**InExile** · 30 Oct 11,, 00:11

Once you've finished reading the chart which lays down in quite simple fashion all the evidence needed to shoot your Apartheid claim out of the water, I expect you to retract your comment and claim. I won't demand an apology, it's up to you to decide whether you want to be man enough to admit that you were wrong or not.

But the accusation of Apartheid is not made against Israel proper; the Arab Israelis have full rights.

The occupation of the West Bank; where a minority of settlers live among a larger Palestinian population; seems similar in many ways to the Apartheid system in South Africa; though not exactly the same.

So that chart is quite irrelevant.

**bigross86** · 30 Oct 11,, 00:18

Read Zraver's claim. We're not talking about the West Bank, he specifically has claimed that Israeli Arabs have less rights than Israeli Jews.

But they will never have full rights either... Tuba-Zangaryia is a case in point. This little arab village is Israel's oldest ally, has stood beside the Jews and the Jewish state since the 1930's. Yet recently Israeli rightwingers torched the mosque... To them Israel is for Jews alone.... Ben you seem to be taking this line... willing to accord non-Jews no better than second class status. I'm going to remind you again of where that leads in history... you as a Jew of all people should know better.

Be thee not Arab seems to be the first commandment...

He did not make even one mention of Palestinians or the West Bank. The focus here is solely on Israeli Arabs. Hell, according to Z the claim also includes Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, the Baha'i and Pastafarians. After all, they are all non-Jews... I'll admit that Israel needs to change some of its policies in the West Bank, but that's a different subject.

By the way, I'm not even pointing out the implicit insult in Zraver's post, that I'm a racist against Israeli Arabs. I've admitted before that I'm prejudiced against Palestinians, never against Israeli Arabs

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 00:34

Originally Posted by bigross86

We've argued all the other points before, there's no reason to repeat them yet again,so I'll respond to the couple new points:

Since when do a couple nutjobs that are already being hunted by the police reflect the views of an entire nation and government? Using your logic, a couple rightwingers burning the mosque as an excuse to blame the government means that every single case of violence against an Arab post 9/11 is a reflection of the US policy to eradicate the entire Arab people and Muslim faith. Don't you think you're stretching it a bit?

Not really, since Israel seems quite willing to punish entire populations for the acts of a few... don't like that standard don't use it.

With regards to second class citizens, the Israeli Arabs have every single right an Israeli Jew has, except the Israeli Arab doesn't have to serve in the army. And this while Israeli Arabs frequently act as a fifth column within Israel, having aided and abetted terrorists from the PLO and Hamas in the past.

You know that standard thing... here is a good example of it. A large number of Jews have aided and abetted terrorists as well.... be that as it may they do not enjoy every single right a Jew does.

Using an Australian 457 Visa, you are only allowed to emigrate if you have a skill the state needs and have the qualifications and knowledge of English needed. That separates people into haves and have-nots, those with qualifications and knowledge of English and those without. Australians are racist bastards!!!

I don't see any racial requirement above, but I see it in israel's [policy...

What concern is it of Australia if the people wanting to emigrate to Australia don't speak the language most commonly spoken in Australia, de facto the official language?! It's an international matter and I demand that Australia be taken in front of the ICoJ.

You figure people emigrating from Aus would speak English, but immigrating to they might not. The problem is Israel doesn't care about skills or toungue but race and religion.

People moving to the US with a Green Card lottery need to have enough money to support themselves, or else they need to get someone to fill out an The USCIS has no problem splitting people into haves and have nots, those that fit the criteria and those that don't. Those racist assholes!!! How dare they?! Why should the US care of people wanting to come and live in the US have enough money to ensure that the US isn't importing people that will be a burden upon the US?! It's an international matter and I demand the entire world enact an economical and educational boycott on the US until they change their racist ways.

Not racist- banning Palestinian immigration is...

If Israel is for Jews alone, how were my sister's neighbors in Jerusalem, Chris and Shelly, a devout Christian couple from Texas? How is is that at least half the people living in my dorm building in the middle of one of the in Tel Aviv are Arabs? How is it that there is a pro-Palestinian political advocacy group ON CAMPUS? How is it that Israel is one of the only countries in the region accepting refugees from Darfur? Walk down the street in Southern Tel Aviv, tell me how many white people you see waking the streets. I'll give you a hint: Not many. How is it that wherever you look on campus in the LARGEST UNIVERSITY IN ISRAEL you see Arabs as students and white people as maintenance staff? According to your theory it should be the other way around, no? Well, how is this all possible?!?!

Your cherry picking, lets look at overall representation in government, poverty rates, rates of employment etc...

I'll tell you how: You're talking nonsense, and it's out of respect for you that I don't say that you're full of shit. Whatever argument you might think you have falls dead in the water as soon as you bother to actually take a look at life in Israel. In essence, when you claim that Israeli Arabs don't have the same rights as Jews, you're claiming Apartheid against Israel's own citizens. Even though I've done it before, I'll do it again to show you how stupid that analogy is, just look at the chart I'm attaching.

Once you've finished reading the chart which lays down in quite simple fashion all the evidence needed to shoot your Apartheid claim out of the water, I expect you to retract your comment and claim. I won't demand an apology, it's up to you to decide whether you want to be man enough to admit that you were wrong or not.

As usual your tryign to conflate Israeli discrimination in Israel and Israeli apartheid policy in the West Bank and East Jerusalem usign one to cover the other. Israeli Arabs are second class citizens becuase they do not enjoy the ALL same rights as Jews. However Israeli policies in the occupied territories are a different matter. Jews and Arabs have different legal systems, different access to services, different water allotments, different rights to political speech, different rights of movement.... And the group with the most rights is the minority.

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 00:36

Originally Posted by bigross86

Read Zraver's claim. We're not talking about the West Bank, he specifically has claimed that Israeli Arabs have less rights than Israeli Jews.

And they do.. You as a Jew can marry who you want, and they get to move to Israel to be with you. Israeli-Arabs do not have that right- they often prefer to marry inside of extended family/clan but the majority of those mates are in the occupied territories or other Arab countries and cannot move to Israel.

He did not make even one mention of Palestinians or the West Bank. The focus here is solely on Israeli Arabs. Hell, according to Z the claim also includes Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, the Baha'i and Pastafarians. After all, they are all non-Jews... I'll admit that Israel needs to change some of its policies in the West Bank, but that's a different subject.

Correct, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are different issues. And those other fathers are not really material to the discussion. Christians might be, as they do face discrimination in Israel, but its minor and more often tied to race than creed.

By the way, I'm not even pointing out the implicit insult in Zraver's post, that I'm a racist against Israeli Arabs. I've admitted before that I'm prejudiced against Palestinians, never against Israeli Arabs

Ben, you've been outspoken in your support of the hard right in Israel.

**Doktor** · 30 Oct 11,, 00:45

What's the legal status of those living in Gaza and West Bank? I mean non-Jews o/c.

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 00:57

Originally Posted by Doktor

What's the legal status of those living in Gaza and West Bank? I mean non-Jews o/c.

The most honest answer would be they don't have one. Under the 4th Geneva Conventions they do, but Israel routinely ignores this and claims the West Bank is part of Israel and that Gaza is not occupied. However, if the West Bank is part of Israel, then the denial of citizenship combined with the unfair treatment amounts to apartheid. But of course when it comes to refuting apartheid, the West Bank suddenly becomes not- part of Israel. Its a dishonest circular argument used to justify the illegal occupation.

**Doktor** · 30 Oct 11,, 01:33

Originally Posted by zraver

The most honest answer would be they don't have one. Under the 4th Geneva Conventions they do, but Israel routinely ignores this and claims the West Bank is part of Israel and that Gaza is not occupied. However, if the West Bank is part of Israel, then the denial of citizenship combined with the unfair treatment amounts to apartheid. But of course when it comes to refuting apartheid, the West Bank suddenly becomes not- part of Israel. Its a dishonest circular argument used to justify the illegal occupation.

It is rather weird situation to me. Maybe Ben can explain the logic behind that. After he tells me where Israel is declared as a Jewish State of

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 03:52

Originally Posted by Doktor

It is rather weird situation to me. Maybe Ben can explain the logic behind that. After he tells me where Israel is declared as a Jewish State of

From the day of its birth, "WE HEREBY DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), and until the setting up of the duly elected bodies of the State in accordance with a Constitution, to be drawn up by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the first day of October, 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall constitute the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel".

Thats from the declaration declaring the State of Israel.

Ben just likes to forget the next paragraph which says, "THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews and for the Ingathering of the Exiles from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace as invisaged by the prophets of Israel; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

Ya those three parts in bold can only be described as a fail... However, to protect itself legally from violating those principles the Knesset has declared that the declaration is not law nor is it a legally binding document except as a legal instrument creating the state of Israel. But I don't bring that up because the American Declaration of Independence enjoys similar status. I assume most nations with such documents have passed similar laws since its really easy to speak highly, and harder to live highly.

As for the logic behind it, its political games to try and duck responsibility. Israel finds itself in a pickle- if it pulls out then the political war inside Israel will be huge. If it doesn't the war with the Palestinians never really ends. But things are coming to a head. With the end of the Cold War and the passing of the WWII public opinion in Europe and the US is turning on Israel. Both are still ready to let Israel defend herself. But really, what enemies does she have? The Syrian military is a joke, using equipment that was for the most part a generation older than Israel's kit in 1990...

Jordan and Egypt are at peace and Lebanon is fractured. That leaves PoG and Hamas... not exactly invading hordes... Israel had a small reserve of goodwill but she blew it in senseless moves like using WP on apartment complexes, attacking apartment complexes in Tyre, the list of blockade items designed to inflict suffering on the population, failure to prosecute settler attacks, expansion of the settlements, new settlements (called out posts), Annexing East Jerusalem, home destruction... Hell even the pull out of Gaza was botched- those home should have been left intact not dismantled. Then there is the building water crisis...