Thread: The Problem with Israel

Ben:

It's all true that the modern day entity called Palestine is a modern day creation. But nations are formed around people who share a cultural and historical identity. So it was with the Israelis; so it is with the Palestinians. IMHO, these questions have no place in discussing peace inasmuch as their intractability infects and prolongs the peace process.

Originally Posted by Doktor

I would say both lose big time. Imagine the economical growth independent Palestinian state will produce.

I wouldn't argue against you on this point. But I wonder if prolonging a settlement does not work more to Israel's disadvantage inasmuch as the cost to Israel to protect its border with 'Palestine' is far greater that the cost of challenging it. Also, as much as Israel may be in the right, the impasse increasingly becomes Israel's fault in the eyes of world opinion. The deterioration of relations with Turkey and now Egypt are the result.

Being first neighbor, having resources and knowledge, Israel should be the biggest benefitor from that growth, short, mid and long term-wise.

In principle you are absolutely right. But in reality the issue is complicated by security fears.

Originally Posted by Mihais

Now,my point is this entire naming stuff is a convention,not a reality.Let's get back to something substantial.

Right on. Frankly, Black Ghost's call for Israel to do the just thing toward the Palestinians is a red herring. And I am sorry to see Ben have to struggle to maintain context. Yeah, let's talk about possible solutions and the effect of prolonging the impasse.

Frankly, The Israelis are losing the war of public opinion, and losing it rather badly.

All it takes are a few like minded idiots to lob some rockets or blow themselves up in a crowded places but the Israelis can't respond in kind so they react the only was a nation can, and that is by overwhelming military force or creating buffers. Something the koombaya crowds of the world consider "excessive".

There will never be true peace in that area as long as the Muslims glorify things like "jihad".

Leaving Israel aside, who really believes the Middle East will be prosperous and violence free once the Jews dissapear from the area?

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I wouldn't argue against you on this point. But I wonder if prolonging a settlement does not work more to Israel's disadvantage inasmuch as the cost to Israel to protect its border with 'Palestine' is far greater that the cost of challenging it. Also, as much as Israel may be in the right, the impasse increasingly becomes Israel's fault in the eyes of world opinion. The deterioration of relations with Turkey and now Egypt are the result.

Israel loses PR war at the moment as she is not the underdog there, add Turkey, Egypt, Syria or even Jordan to the equation and things will change.
You are right, the way it is at the moment Israel loses public support everywhere, even USA (I guess), and that can/will lead to decreased support for their defensive forces, therefor their security. But in the big scheme, it is the Palestinians who lose generations and I think Israel can cope this way like forever, or at least until USA provides political backup.

In principle you are absolutely right. But in reality the issue is complicated by security fears.

What better way to increase security then to make it unworthy to threaten it? Also kepp the population thinking about work and they wont have time to think about Israel, USA, USSR, Japan...

First, sorry, concede the point on ultra orthodox as a majority element in the settlements.

How about when Israel decided to give a lot and stop taking, like Gaza in 2005? It's amazing how every single left-wing, blame Israel preacher on the internet forgets the 2005 Unilateral Israel Disengagement plan. That's right. Without being asked, without trying to score points, despite massive disapproval both within Israel and without, Ariel Sharon, one of the most hawkish PM's we've had decided to uproot all Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and return the land to the Palestinians. Within a short period of time the Palestinians destroyed every single piece of infrastructure Israel left them and the highly fertile land lies fallow. Way to go, Gazans!!!!

Well at least until the flotilla incident things like tractor parts, green house supplies, pesticides etc were banned and when Israel left they took most of the water with them. However, Israel didn't just leave, but dismantled everything first. Given the housing shortage there that was nothing but spite.

And in every army there are also those that are a lot more stringent. Remember that left wing TC I told you about that was one of my best commanders in the army? You know why he joined a combat unit? Because he wanted to make sure that his soldiers treated the Palestinians they came in contact with properly. I've been on dozens of arrests, roadblocks, random pullovers and searches with him and not once has the situation gotten out of hand, because we retained a humane image in our mind when we performed our missions.

you know how many LWers it would take to counter just one of the bad RWers?

n hour and included 2 computer crashes (thank god I save), so I'm sure you'll understand if I don't necessarily reply to another of your posts tonight[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Doktor

. But in the big scheme, it is the Palestinians who lose generations and I think Israel can cope this way like forever, or at least until USA provides political backup.

On the other hand, economic growth tends to moderate militant behavior. It won't do to risk economic gains by poking your more powerful neighbor in the eye. Perhaps Israel could tap into Palestine's push for economic growth to achieve its own security goals. Let them build up their economy, and when they have more to lose than now, negotiate.

What better way to increase security then to make it unworthy to threaten it? Also kepp the population thinking about work and they wont have time to think about Israel, USA, USSR, Japan...

More or less that's what I'm saying. Rogue militants will still be a problem. The Pal authority will have to find a way to deal with them and Hamas-Gaza.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

On the other hand, economic growth tends to moderate militant behavior. It won't do to risk economic gains by poking your more powerful neighbor in the eye. Perhaps Israel could tap into Palestine's push for economic growth to achieve its own security goals. Let them build up their economy, and when they have more to lose than now, negotiate.

Agree.

More or less that's what I'm saying. Rogue militants will still be a problem. The Pal authority will have to find a way to deal with them and Hamas-Gaza.

Oh, don't worry about them, Pals will sort them out once they stake are higher.

Originally Posted by Doktor

Oh, don't worry about them, Pals will sort them out once they stake are higher.

I've been saying for years the best defense against nutjobs is to give the won't be so nutty if employed ones jobs. The real nutters can't be helped but i doubt there are more of them among the pals than the Israelies. The rest of the militants are desperate unemployed young men raised in a culture of war. To end the war, increase employment. It goves them hope andtakes up their free time to sit around listening to the real nutters, nursing greviances and plotting.

Originally Posted by gunnut

On the contrary, it's typical for a 20 year old to know everything about this world throughout history and forms the correct opinion plus a solution to all the problems humanity has ever faced.

Then he runs into the real world...

I'll up ya there smartarse :p
"Why are little children so intelligent and grown men so stupid? - It must be education which does it!"

- I think it was Alexander Dumas Fils...

I'll see your Dumas and raise you Twain:

When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.

Alternate version: When I was sixteen, my father was the most ignorant man in the world. By the time I reached 21, I was surprised at how much he had learned in five years.

Originally Posted by bigross86

Would it surprise you if I answered "yes" to each and every one of those?

But before you start rejoicing in celebration, I wonder if you could answer a few questions for me, since that will lead directly to your points 3 & 4.

This is a wonderful piece of work originally found on Youtube and written by Yashiko Sagamori:



If you can answer those questions, then maybe you can claim that the Palestinians are a "people" that deserve a state of their own. But before you bother trying to make that claim, allow me to save you some time and effort by reading these quotes:



As you can very well see, that in direct contrast to the Jews of today and the Israelites of yore which can draw a direct lineage and connection to each other, the Palestinians are in essence a figment of the imagination! If I try a little harder I can probably find even more quotes from "Palestinian" and Arab leaders about the true nature and reality of the Palestinians.

So tell me,

1) Do you accept that a figment of the imagination has a right to self-determination?

2) Do you accept that a figment of the imagination should have territorial integrity and not be violated?

3) Do you still believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or Zeus and his Pantheon of deities?

BR,

Is this how Israel plans to win that PR war you keep talking about? Because once you start trying to make actual people & actual problems dissappear in a puff of sophistry or historical gameplaying you have either conceded that you have lost or that you have no interest in resolving the problem. If these sort of fairy stories are what passes for intelligent discussion in Israel then I fear the size & depth of the hole may be too big to get out of. It reminds me of nothing so much as increasing detchment from reality that marked the final decades of minority rule in Sth Africa - a spiral of delusion. These attempts to strip palestinians of their identity every bit as offensive as anti-semitic attempts to do the same to Jews. They have every bit as much legitimacy as you.

1) I'm sorry, we're going to have to disagree there. They do not have every bit as much legitimacy as we do, because they've been around for 40+ years clamoring for something that didn't exist and that they didn't even want until they lost, while we've been around for 2,000 years and have had the yearning to return to Israel and Jerusalem ever since our exile in 70 CE. Historically, not religiously, the Israelites and Jews have had the desire to return to Israel, our ancient homeland.

2) I'm not denying the Palestinians' existence, the entire above post was to show Ghost that there's a lot more to the picture than he's aware of and that things aren't as cut and clear as he thinks they are.

What I find interesting is something you've not even bothered to refute, every single quote I posted above was by an Arab or Palestinian leader claiming that there's no such thing as a Palestinian. So why should you then go and claim there is if even they admit Palestinians are a falsehood? That in itself is one of the main stumbling blocks to peace, trying to deal with an entity that is not sure of itself, can't even speak for it's own people and makes outrageous demands which they know won't be agreed to, so they can then blame the other side for negotiations failing.

3) I've said it before, I'll say it again: No one wants peace more than I do, and I'm even willing to make concessions in order to reach that peace. Do you think I enjoy living with the knowledge that by getting on this bus there's a chance I've signed my own death sentence? Do you think I enjoy putting my life on the line in reserve duty for the next 20 or so years and will have my children put theirs on the line when I've finished? Do you think I enjoy having taken human lives and knowing that I might have to do it again, and even more, won't even hesitate before pulling the trigger? I sure hope you don't find me that bloodthirsty that you would answer "yes".

You'll find that just for the above reasons Israel is more willing to make peace with the Palestinians. We sanctify life, the Palestinians revel in death. "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." - Golda Meir, 1957. Or alternatively, "And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war." - Isaiah 2:4.

I made the argument with Zraver quite a while back that (in the last decade, at least) Israel has always been the one to make the concrete peace offers, steps towards peace and painful concessions. The Palestinians have done none of the above and have even refused to sit and negotiate when their unprecedented demand for a settlement freeze as a PRE-condition to negotiation was met. Instead, they chose to sit and wait and do nothing until the freeze was ending and blame the Israelis for acting in bad faith. The Palestinians have shown time and again, by actions and by inaction that they have no real desire for peace. Say what you want about Israel, at least we go through the motions. The Palestinians can't even be bothered to put up with that charade.

Remember Abbas' speech before the UN a month ago? He mourned the occupation that's been going on for 63 years. That would be from 1948 when Israel was founded, not 1967 when the Palestinians suddenly appeared on the world stage. How can you expect anyone to negotiate with an entity that refuses to acknowledge their existence? Right there is the trap into which you've fallen. When an Israeli tries to claim that Palestinians don't exist and are a modern invention and then supports if with quotes from Palestinians leaders, you have a problem with that. When the entire Palestinian nation refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel, a state that's been around at least 1.5 times longer than the Palestinian claim for statehood has and is possessed of a yearning for the land arguably hundreds of times longer than the Palestinians yearning, you have no problem with that.

That sounds slightly hypocritical to me, but by now I've learned to expect nothing less from Palestinians and their sympathizers. I have a yearning and a longing, for the day when there will be one Palestinian willing to talk honestly, play it straightforward and is given the authority to negotiate. Then we might finally have peace

Originally Posted by bigross86

I'll see your Dumas and raise you Twain:

Hahaha - yeah. Who hasn't eaten humble pie with that one?