The Problem with Israel

**Dusty1000** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:08

Originally Posted by Doktor

I am referring to the refuges, not to those who are occupied.

There are several refugee camps in the West Bank, so the people living there also live under the apartheid like system.

In any case, I would think that living what might be considered to be a ''normal'' life under such an apartheid-like system, would be preferable to living in a refugee camp, whether the camp might be in the West Bank, Gaza, or one of the neighbouring countries.

**Doktor** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:11

Again, iyv, why are these people in refugee camps living under apartheid like system and the others non-Jews can vote, have citizenship, etc, etc..?

**Dusty1000** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:16

Originally Posted by Doktor

Again, iyv, why are these people in refugee camps living under apartheid like system and the others non-Jews can vote, have citizenship, etc, etc..?

Are you talking about voting in Israeli elections, or Palestinian elections?

What does ''iyv'' mean?

**Doktor** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:21

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

Are you talking about voting in Israeli elections, or Palestinian elections?

What does ''iyv'' mean?

Israeli for the Knesset.

iyv = In Your View.

**Dusty1000** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:24

Originally Posted by Doktor

Israeli for the Knesset.

Those who can vote are Israeli citizens. Those who cannot vote, are not.

iyv = In Your View.

Thank you. I like to think I learn something new every day.

**Doktor** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:28

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

Those who can vote are Israeli citizens. Those who cannot vote, are not.

This is essentially what I am asking from the beginning. There are Non-Jews who can vote and do everything like the Jews, and there are Non-Jews who can't. Why is that in your view. And I am not talking about occupied territories, but within 1947 borders of Israel.

Thank you. I like to think I learn something new every day.

**Dusty1000** · 16 Nov 11,, 13:58

Originally Posted by Doktor

This is essentially what I am asking from the beginning. There are Non-Jews who can vote and do everything like the Jews, and there are Non-Jews who can't. Why is that in your view. And I am not talking about occupied territories, but within 1947 borders of Israel.

Ah, you are referring to ''present absentees'' who are not Israeli citizens. The original present absentees in 1948 were those who fled or were expelled from their homes, but remained within Israel.

Present absentee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Doktor** · 16 Nov 11,, 14:02

Still my question remains. Why these don't have a right to vote, while the others do have that right?

**Dusty1000** · 16 Nov 11,, 15:15

Originally Posted by Doktor

Still my question remains. Why these don't have a right to vote, while the others do have that right?

Like I said, those who have the right to vote are Israeli citizens. Those who do not have the right to vote, are not Israeli citizens.

**Doktor** · 16 Nov 11,, 15:20

But you also said it is apartheid like system. Correct me if I am wrong, but in apartheid ALL blacks were treated equally and ALL whites more equally.
Now, you don't have case for racial, religious or any other profiling here, do you?

**Dusty1000** · 16 Nov 11,, 15:54

Originally Posted by Doktor

But you also said it is apartheid like system. Correct me if I am wrong, but in apartheid ALL blacks were treated equally and ALL whites more equally.
Now, you don't have case for racial, religious or any other profiling here, do you?

Now I see what you're getting at. The apartheid-like system I mentioned, exists between Israeli citizens, and Palestinians living in the West Bank.

Israel and the apartheid analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Doktor** · 16 Nov 11,, 17:02

Actually I was getting at the refugees and their right to return and to obtain citizenship, but you turned this in the other direction

So, why do you think those refugees are not allowed to get Israeli citizenship?

**zraver** · 16 Nov 11,, 17:52

Originally Posted by Doktor

So, why do you think those refugees are not allowed to get Israeli citizenship?

The politicis of demographics, Israel is a religious state before its democratic trappings. Letting those designated as refugesss return and claim the land and property they lost in 48 would forever end the Jewish state, although it would probably lead to the Middle East's first real democracy...

**YellowFever** · 16 Nov 11,, 18:00

I have come to the realization that the REAL problem with Israel is that there are so many crap about the Jew/Pal written online that an honest, constructive debate about the issue is just about impossible as the debators can't even agree upon the basic facts.

This is really turning into a "you started it", "no, you started it" kinda debate.....

**Parihaka** · 16 Nov 11,, 18:04

Originally Posted by zraver

Funny, i'm not at odds with Morris: the Birth of the Palestinian Refugee problem Revisited. Cambridge. 2004 pp239.http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/new...reply&p=844600

Although I find it far beneath your normal level of debate that you try and sedgeway from how a massacre of Arabs by Jews that galvanized Arab public opinion forcing them to intervene into a refrence to the Holocuast and by implication that the Palestinians were/are nazis. Germany invaded other nations and went looking for Jews. The Palestinians haven't invaded anyone, they have not passed and enforced laws very much akin to the Nuremburg laws on an Aboriginial population, they haven't forced whole populations to live in ghettos, they haven't engaged in mass population expulsions...

I also find it saddening that you continue to ignore Jewish plans- admitted to by Jewish leaders to engage in terrorism and genocide to get what they wanted. jewish plans to ethnically cleanse palestine can be traced to at least 1920 and we have similar statements from Israeli politicians as recent as the 90's.

You seem to be mistaking me for some other member, attributing beliefs to me that I haven't stated. What I am taking issue with is Dusty and your rewriting of history, specifically that

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

The problem that exists today with the Israelis and Palestinians, exists not because the Palestinians and Arab states did not accept the partition plan, but because Israel did not accept it.

As I have already pointed out, this is demonstrably false and the above rant merely indicative of your anti-Israeli stance, whereby anyone who disagrees with all or any detail of your claims is thereby attributed with all of the both real and imagined evils of your view of Israel. What's next? I kill babies?