The Problem with Israel

**JAD_333** · 30 Oct 11,, 20:24

Originally Posted by Parihaka

I know the feeling

Being old or being old enough to see where all this is headed? I'm both. Peace talks have been going on (and off) for so long that one would be forgiven for sitting out such discussions. One also suspects that lack of progress is at least partially the fault of arguments over incompatible points of view that have little to do with the business at hand...peace & coexistence.

**Parihaka** · 30 Oct 11,, 20:51

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Being old or being old enough to see where all this is headed? I'm both. Peace talks have been going on (and off) for so long that one would be forgiven for sitting out such discussions. One also suspects that lack of progress is at least partially the fault of arguments over incompatible points of view that have little to do with the business at hand...peace & coexistence.

I'm both too. Historical rights can be argued til the cows come home and frankly I've got plenty more local issues in that vein without worrying about the niceties of Israel/Palestines history.
The issue is essentially simple. Palestinians need a place to live and they need to develop a credible government within that place. Israel needs to relinquish enough land and resources for that to happen. The rest is negotiation. Unfortunately the main players, that is the larger middle east and Europe/US aren't really at the table, instead they're using the two sides as proxies.

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 21:29

Originally Posted by bigross86

THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THE TOPIC, SCHOOL HAS STARTED AGAIN AND I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO REHASH AN ARGUMENT WE'VE HAD DOZENS OF TIMES ALREADY

run away little boy.

But we're not dealing with the "Occupied Territories", how many times do I have to repeat that until you understand? We're dealing with two distinct groups: Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, and this current discussion is regarding Israeli Arabs, not the Palestinians. I don't know how much simpler I can make it so you will understands.

Your the one who brought them up...

What numbers? Settlers are prosecuted just as severely as Palestinians. There are more Palestinians arrests because there are more Palestinians committing crimes than settlers.

We've been over this using Jewish sources, settlers are almost never prosecuted for attacks on Palestinians.

Of course age is a factor! If 10% are eligible to vote, and they vote for the people that take care of their needs and represent them faithfully, that's all they get. Why should Jews vote for someone that will take care of Arab issues and not their own issues? If the Knesset was set up like the US Congress and was based on size and population, you would have a point, but it's not, and therefore you don't.

There is no logic in your demand, might as well give every child from the second they are born the right to vote, then they will have representation based on population size. Until that point, they have representation which fits perfectly with the voting population. You can't really ask for more than that. Well, YOU can, anyway

Some highly diverse societies set aside seats based on demographics. This is done to make sure that minority voices get heard.

Did you notice how I said proportionally represents Israeli Arabs of voting age? No, I'll bet you didn't. But I'm the one that's cherry picking...

Look, they are 1/5th of the population... and growing rapidly. Yet they have about 1/10th of the political power.

You're claiming systematic violation of rights and lesser rights to a segment of the population based on race, ethnicity and religion. That is Apartheid in so many words. You accused Israel of Apartheid against the Israeli Arabs, but if it helps soothe your troubled soul, we'll go back to using the first definition. Who cares about brevity, anyway?

I did not accuse Israel of aparthied against Israeli Arabs.

Except for the fact that I stated ad nauseum that I was not referring to the "Occupied Territories". That is a different subject for a different debate, yet you can't seem to get that through your mind. Do you want me to go over the distinction between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians yet again?

You brought them up

To do nothing is to support Hamas/Fatah. If they say they don't support Hamas/Fatah and move to Israel, they are not in any particular danger, unless you're now claiming Hamas and Fatah have hit squads roving all around Israel specifically looking for these people.

Thats dishonest, the law requires them to have done something for Israel while in the occupied territories... In otherwords Palestinians, not Jews have to risk their lives to even get an entrance visa.

Moreover, you've just proved in that post why it's in Israel's best interest to make a distinction, if Hamas and Fatah are as dangerous as you make them out to be

Making a distinction between those who support, and those who merely live as most nations do is a far cry from defining anyone who does not risk themselves and their family as an enemy.

That, and most militants don't live to reach an old age. Being alive works better than being dead

If we look at the numbers of dead, compared to population- most militants do live to old age. Its more dangerous to be a civilian than a militant...

Nothing in that article points to official government policy to discriminate against Christians. The exact opposite, it shows steps the government and police have taken to defend Christian holy places.

Did I say official, or that it existed... Never mind the articles refrence to government agencies and agents...

Went over the definition of Apartheid, went over the definition of Israeli Arabs/Palestinians.

1) JNF control of the land: (Spoiler to save room)

Spoiler!

Once again, you are mistaken, you choose whether to admit it or not.

No restrictions... How about the fact that the missing persons law confiscated land from the arab owners even if that owner never left the area. Its one thing to say hey- you fled the area you can't come back. Its quite another to shove someone out and into the neighborign village then claim since the owner aint home the land now belongs to Israel and can be sold to the JNF. Which is how the JNF went from 9% to 13% of all land in Israel- buying land seized in 48, often while the real owners were effectively present but ignored.

2) Asked and answered

And it remains a case of glaring bias and second class status.

3) What veteran benefits, they don't serve in the IDF!!

Exactly, but most state benefits and state jobs are tied to military service. Its a neat trick to exclude Arabs.

4) You mean policies like the one that state that every company must have an Arab on its board of directors? I'm sorry, I'm gonna need actual examples of these so called discriminatory policies. So far every single company I've worked in (mainly in the center of the country), there have been ~15% Arab workers, and not in the maintenance staff...

OK at least 1 arab on the board of directors... How many production centers, factories, etc are located in Arab neighborhoods? How about building codes in East Jerusalem that prohibit Arab building but not Jewish...

How about the fact that I'm completely in favor of a Palestinian state and am willing to admit when Israel does something wrong? Doesn't get much more centrist than that, does it?

You've admitted Israel was wrong... when, becuase I missed it. As for completely in favor- complete meaning full nothing missing... so you favor a border based on the 1967 start lines. Because thats the only way a Palestinian state can be complete.

La la la, not discussing the Palestinians, la la la!!!

you just did

La la la, not discussing the Palestinians, la la la!!!

you just did

Oh, and by the way, Israel left the Palestinians scores of greenhouses and shit tons of arable land in Gaza. What have the Palestinians done with that? Oh yeah, I remember. Jack shit. Tore down the greenhouses and let the land lie fallow. But that's OK, you can blame Israel for that, we all know you're going to do that anyway...

TBG answered this part before I could.

**Mihais** · 30 Oct 11,, 22:04

aren't you two bored to repeat the same points and variations of the same points all over again.Really,there are more important places the Israel and Palestine.The fate of those lands and peoples ultimately does not lie there,no matter how hard it may sound.
Solve the larger Arab problem and you solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.Fail to do that and Israel becomes the least of our problems.
Btw,since when justice matters in foreign affairs?

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 22:12

Originally Posted by Mihais

aren't you two bored to repeat the same points and variations of the same points all over again.Really,there are more important places the Israel and Palestine.The fate of those lands and peoples ultimately does not lie there,no matter how hard it may sound.
Solve the larger Arab problem and you solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.Fail to do that and Israel becomes the least of our problems.

Maybe, but the Arab problem is only a problem becuase of oil and the ME is losing its place there.

Btw,since when justice matters in foreign affairs?

Since May 1945...

**Mihais** · 30 Oct 11,, 22:22

Originally Posted by zraver

Since May 1945...

That's the first time I use this abbreviation(really): ROFLMAO.
Seriously,get real.It never mattered and never will.

**bigross86** · 30 Oct 11,, 22:24

Originally Posted by zraver

run away little boy.

Whatevs, dude, whatevs...

I'm sure I'll be forgiven if I place my education as a higher priority than rehashing this argument again and again with someone who's not that great a debating partner to begin with. And I would know this, I've debated against the European debate champions and the World debate champions. You fall far short from all of them.

I see no need to risk the infraction I'll get from responding to you in your own vein and style.

**bigross86** · 30 Oct 11,, 22:27

Originally Posted by Mihais

aren't you two bored to repeat the same points and variations of the same points all over again.Really,there are more important places the Israel and Palestine.The fate of those lands and peoples ultimately does not lie there,no matter how hard it may sound.
Solve the larger Arab problem and you solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.Fail to do that and Israel becomes the least of our problems.
Btw,since when justice matters in foreign affairs?

I am, that's why this "little boy" is being the bigger man and leaving this debate. I've got plans for the future, and they don't include debating with someone who can't keep track of his own arguments, let alone his opposition's and has the debating skills of a child on the kindergarden playground. Whoever wants is free to play in Zraver's sandbox as long as they agree with him. I can't guarantee what will happen once you disagree with him.

At least he's not a Mod anymore and can't ban me for disagreeing with him in a debate. True story!

**zraver** · 30 Oct 11,, 23:13

Originally Posted by bigross86

I am, that's why this "little boy" is being the bigger man and leaving this debate. I've got plans for the future, and they don't include debating with someone who can't keep track of his own arguments, let alone his opposition's and has the debating skills of a child on the kindergarden playground. Whoever wants is free to play in Zraver's sandbox as long as they agree with him. I can't guarantee what will happen once you disagree with him.

At least he's not a Mod anymore and can't ban me for disagreeing with him in a debate. True story!

Toot your own horn, I intervened 3 times as I recall and you lost 2 of those arguments. And they were for forum violations not points in the debate except when you crossed a line.

Now as to you debating... using talking points isn't debate, never has been never will be. Like your whole thing on the JNF leaving out the lands seized after 48 even when the arab owners were present, and the fact that JNF trades tend to take Arab land out of the Negev.

**bigross86** · 30 Oct 11,, 23:16

Obviously there's something you don't understand about me saying I've left this conversation, so I'll repeat:

Keep making claims, you're arguing with yourself. I'm done

**Doktor** · 30 Oct 11,, 23:18

But you are still here. BTW I still wait where Israel is declared as a Jewish state

**The Black Ghost** · 31 Oct 11,, 18:24

**YellowFever** · 31 Oct 11,, 21:59

Originally Posted by Mihais

That's the first time I use this abbreviation(really): ROFLMAO.
Seriously,get real.It never mattered and never will.

I nominate this as the only original and worthwhile thing to read in this thread.

**The Black Ghost** · 31 Oct 11,, 23:56

The Empire Strikes Back against democracy....

UNESCO aid cut off by US, could hurt US companies

The United States will stop paying $80 million in dues and voluntary contributions to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization in response to the body’s vote Monday to grant membership to the Palestinian Authority, but the fight over U.S. funding policy may not be over yet.

UNESCO voted 107-14 in favor of granting status to the Palestinians, triggering existing U.S. laws that prohibit American support of U.N. agencies that give the Palestinian Authority membership.

Still, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland suggested the administration could look for a way to rewrite or work around the law.

“We have to work with Congress because these are legislative constraints,” Nuland told reporters at a Monday briefing. “If we are going to move forward in a legislative way, we have to gain their support.”

The funding cutoff could have far-reaching effects for American tech companies — such as Apple, Google and Microsoft — and movie studios that use UNESCO to open markets in the developing world and rely on an associated entity, the World Intellectual Property Organization, to police international disputes over music, movies and software.

It’s a tough bind for the administration: The White House and State Department support UNESCO’s mission, but there’s little chance that Congress will rewrite a law that is supported by the large bloc of pro-Israel lawmakers. Indeed, there seems to be a split at State between those who are mortified by the prospect of cutting off funding for UNESCO and those who understand the political peril of angering pro-Israel forces.

Pro-Israel lawmakers mobilized pre-emptively last week, as Reps. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.), the chairman of the House Democrats’ campaign committee, and Tom Cole, a former chairman of the House Republicans’ campaign committee, wrote a letter to colleagues demanding enforcement of the funding prohibition.

“We cannot change this law, and we hope you will join us in co-signing this bipartisan letter to stand by this policy,” Israel and Cole wrote. “Congress must send a powerful message that everything is done to block full membership of the Palestinian Authority to UNESCO, the U.N. Security Council and other U.N. agencies. Such a move would be detrimental to Israel, our greatest ally in the Middle East, as well as U.N. programs around the globe.”

Israel and Cole wrote a similar letter to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton urging her to do everything in her power to avert the admission of the Palestinian Authority to UNESCO. But the State Department’s efforts to get the rest of the world to block Palestinian membership in UNESCO fell short despite a full-court press that included delivering America’s official position in capitals across the globe.

The potential consequences for American businesses are important enough that the State Department invited representatives of about two dozen technology and pharmaceutical companies and associations to participate in a discussion of the matter in Foggy Bottom on Monday afternoon.

“Even as we approach this situation diplomatically, the Department of State and our U.S. government partners would like to invite you to a discussion on the current state of play at UNESCO, as well as the ramifications of the Palestinian bid for membership,” reads a copy of the invitation obtained by POLITICO. Invitees include Apple, Google, Microsoft, the Motion Picture Association of America, PhRMA and the Recording Industry Association of America.

Nuland was noncommittal when asked whether Assistant Secretary Esther Brimmer would press the companies to lobby Congress for a fix, explaining that the State Department wanted to open a dialogue “about how to protect their interests going forward.”

But while American businesses could suffer from the decision to cut off funding, it is unlikely that any of them would pick a fight with Israel.

“You could literally blow me over with a feather if one of those guys came out with a public position,” said one tech industry source.

The Irony of America cutting UNESCO aid

The irony of America cutting UNESCO funds
The U.S. didn’t waste any time cutting funding for UNESCO after the United Nations devoted to promoting education, culture and science granted the Palestinians full membership.

Currently the U.S. covers approximately one fifth of the UNESCO costs but by cutting that funding it will be even harder for the American agenda at UNESCO to be accomplished.

That agenda is not just about protecting previous cultural sites, or teaching Afghan women, children and even police officers to read, or about helping to continue the Tsunami early warning system. It’s also about protecting Israel.

The irony of the decision to cut funding is that UNESCO is one of the few United Nations groups where the U.S. finds a sympathetic ear on issues related to Israel. UNESCO is actively working with America to promote tolerance and is working to deepen understanding of the Holocaust in countries where people don’t even believe it existed.

Even more important U.S. interests will be at stake if the World Intellectual Property Organization grants Palestinians membership, which as an affiliate of UNESCO they are almost certain to do. That is where you start directly encountering obvious and significant interests to American business. When an intellectual property dispute involves the Googles or the Apples of the world and China, it is critical for the U.S. to be a member of good standing, which it will not be if Congress cuts funding.

Even more concerning is when the Palestinians make good on their promise to apply for membership to other U.N. bodies, like the International Atomic Energy Organization, which the U.S. views as critical to curbing Iran’s nuclear program. Or the World Heath Organization, where US money spent goes directly to keeping people alive.

A cut in funding to these UN agencies will mean more than a loss of U.S. influence and prestige. It has the potential to affect American national security in ways lawmakers may not have envisioned when it passed the legislation as a punitive measure.

Unless Congress grants President Obama waiver authority to continue funding to specific U.N. agencies that grant Palestinian membership, it won’t just be the Palestinians who are punished.