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Thread: After the Euro crash and some News

  1. #136
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I cannot see how a person who is unelected by the public - is NOT an MP - can derive authority from a Parliament of MPs. It's a if the UK House of Commons voted for say Mitt Romney as Prime Minister - presuming ANYONE is elegible. In your Constitutional Theory they may as well have elected Barruso himself - or the Grand Patriarch of Bananaland. I suppose in theory ANYONE can command a majority within a Parliament. Normaly though we elect our MPs because they belong to a Party and the leader of that Party is candidate for Prime Minister. They therefore have a 'mandate'. If a similar procedure were to happen in the UK and the HoC suddenly go stark raving mad and elect 'John Smith of Nowhereinparticular' I think the Queen would constitutionaly be forced to call elections.

    The very simple fact is that these MPs who have been more or less forced into this have NO MANDATE for their actions, nor do the new Governments have any public legimitacy.

    I stupidly voted for Laura because she stood for the Party I belong to. I expected her to support David Cameron as Prime Minister and they said in advance (some of) what they would do. By and large my MP has done her job (sometimes too well for my liking!). If she suddenly went beserk and decided to elect 'John Smith of Nowhereinparticular' she would face a byelection within weeks as we'd deselect her. You elect your MPs because you have some idea of what they will support in Parliament - they have a mandate to this from you. Not so any longer in Greece and Italy. The link to democracy is lost when you defer from your mandate.

    You say they can be ousted by a vote in Parliament? Who calls an election? The Prime Minister!

    I predict 'Long Parliaments' for both these effective Dictatorships.
    Erm... isn't that the Speaker of the Parliament, the President of the state or the Queen in your case?
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  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD1 View Post
    does UK have a head of state that is elected on free, democratic elections, or even by members of parliament?

    see, the way it looks like is that UK is quite far from any democracy as such, especially when one looks at british election system - you cannot claim that this is clear and well-understandable system


    people, rocks, glass houses, etc . etc.
    BD1: We elect our MPs to the House of Commons on 'first past the post' system. There was a referendum about this 5 May 2011 with the option being the Alternative Vote system. The overwhelming anwer was stay the same: change 6+ million; no change 13+ million. Democracy I call that! What they do in these so called 'Parliaments' and 'Assemblies' essentialy matters as much as Italian foreign policy to the EU. Scotland and Wales etc have NO decision in just the same way. ONLY the House of Commons and Lords can alter national policies and of course their MPs elected there can vote and influence such policies.

    Can Italian or Greek MEPs vote and influence the Commission in a similar way? NO! If ALL (100%) of MEPs voted a motion of 'no confidence' in the European Commission they do NOT have to hold elections as they are 'appointed' by the 'European Parliament'. If a 'no confidence' motion is passed in the HoC Dok suggests we should NOT call elections as it's perfectly ok to appoint a dictator if the MPs agree. Is a win win for the MPs and the appointee! He promises them more perks and what have you abd he stays in power... a 'state of emergency' is called and elections 'delayed' and they are all happy changing constitutions (now happening in Italy: A constitutional amendment is foreseen for the elimination of one layer of government, i.e. Provinces.).

    You realy want to try to tell me this is democratic? With all due respect if Britain ever goes this way I'd be the second Catholic in our history to try to ignite the Houses of Parliament and I'm sure I wouldn't be tried for treason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Erm... isn't that the Speaker of the Parliament, the President of the state or the Queen in your case?
    The Queen is our Head of State here but she calls elections when the PM says to. I understand the Presidents of Greece and Italy do much the same. A Greek friend of mine though says elections will be called in February... we shall see but I predict some 'emergency' will delay them.
    Last edited by snapper; 11 Nov 11, at 20:52.

  3. #138
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Snapper,

    UK Parliament has this on their site:

    After the Fixed Term Parliament Act was passed on 15 September 2011, the date of the next general election is set at 7 May 2015. The act provides for general elections to be held on the first Thursday in May every five years. There are two provisions that trigger an election other than at five year intervals.

    A motion of no confidence is passed in Her Majesty's Government by a simple majority and 14 days elapses without the House passing a confidence motion in any new Government formed
    A motion for a general election is agreed by two thirds of the total number of seats in the Commons including vacant seats (currently 434 out of 650)
    So it is not MY idea or suggestion. Just saying.
    Last edited by Doktor; 11 Nov 11, at 21:11.
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  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    7 billion are peanuts. That's only one quarter of the annual tax income generated in Slovakia. For comparison the German guarantee is at approximately three quarters of annual tax income. We should therefore demand that Slovakia guarantee at least 20 billion to bring them somewhat in line with those that really have to spend money for this.
    Sorry to be one month late on this, just saw it.

    kato, why would Slovakia give a dime of their tax income to the country they have no interest in whatsoever. It's mostly German and French banks that are head over feet in Greece. It's Germany and France deciding to "save" the Greeks.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Snapper,

    UK Parliament has this on their site:

    So it is not MY idea or suggestion. Just saying.
    This is a recent piece of legislation which was put in place essentialy to guarentee our current coalition Government. Should the coalition fall apart the law is repealed easily and should a Party gain an overall majority at the next election it is likely to be ammended anyway to alow the PM choice of when to call an election again.

    However my origional point was not about democracy in Britain but in Greece and Italy - whether I am throwing rocks in glass house realy does not alter the arguement I have given: This is NOT about Britain; it's about non elected, and people with no mandate, taking power in Greece and (soon) Italy.

    If you DO NOT regard this as dangerous precedent and dangerous for the peace of Europe long term then feel free to explain why.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    This is a recent piece of legislation which was put in place essentialy to guarentee our current coalition Government. Should the coalition fall apart the law is repealed easily and should a Party gain an overall majority at the next election it is likely to be ammended anyway to alow the PM choice of when to call an election again.

    However my origional point was not about democracy in Britain but in Greece and Italy - whether I am throwing rocks in glass house realy does not alter the arguement I have given: This is NOT about Britain; it's about non elected, and people with no mandate, taking power in Greece and (soon) Italy.

    If you DO NOT regard this as dangerous precedent and dangerous for the peace of Europe long term then feel free to explain why.
    I was pointing UK as you were so surprised about what I am saying, that's all.

    Let me see where along the path you find the problem...

    There are elections.

    People come out and vote. (In Greece the ballots are with names of persons, not with political parties), so in this case the citizens vote for a person (in theory).

    You get MPs.

    The head of state gives a mandate to whomever (s)he is convinced can convince the necessary number of MPs to back a Cabinet they will propose.

    Then the mandatary proposes a Cabinet and goes in front of the Parliament for voting. If the prerequired majority of MPs vote "Yes" you get a Government

    Now you tell me how is it any different to have the vote after the GE or 2.5 years later? They are the same MPs who are OK to vote for the Government the first time, but not OK to vote for a new Government later.

    The Government mandate is over, but the Parliament is still up and running.

    What's more important in this case the Greek parliament formed a technical Government to organize free and fair elections and with a clear mandate to accept the austerity measures.

    How is this dangerous for peace in Europe?

    From what I understand you think people vote for parties and then you are surprised some party members not always vote as the party says.
    What's the purpose of Parliament in that way. Once the elections are over there is no need to form a Parliament. The Party with most votes would form a Government and would govern the country in the next 4 (in UK 5) years. Is that a democracy in your view?
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    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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  7. #142
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    this is supposedly from BBC tweet :


    Greece is collapsing, Iranians are getting aggressive & Rome is in disarray. Welcome back to 430 BC (BBC)
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    It's a good rant, however I fail to connect the year with the events
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Let's not forget the ''Carthaginians'' invading S Italy

    But where are the Celts?
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    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    kato, why would Slovakia give a dime of their tax income to the country they have no interest in whatsoever. It's mostly German and French banks that are head over feet in Greece. It's Germany and France deciding to "save" the Greeks.
    Because Slovakia urgently wanted to join the European Union and the Eurozone. There's a German proverb for this. Mitgegangen, Mitgefangen, Mitgehangen. Hang together, hanged together.

    Besides, the guarantee? No ones gonna tap that in full anyway. Perhaps 5%, perhaps 10%. It's not like it matters how much you promise in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The Telegraph claiming that "la boche" is specifically Sarkozy's nickname for Merkel is quite facefault-worthy. Boche has been the derisive nickname for all Germans by all French since at least the 1860s (!). It's used as widely - and with a similar derisive meaning - as "Kraut" or "Fritz" in English.

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    It is dangerous as the new Prime Ministers were never part of the General Election plans put forward to the populace. They are more or less EU imposed. Will Spain be next I wonder? In essence democracy is becoming a 'luxury' that richer Euro nations only can afford. Basicly it is France/Germany trying to force southern Europe to be 'like them', notwithstanding that the Germans have profited vastly from lending to Greeks etc to buy German goods since the Euro was established. Now they want their loans back having already profited from selling so they are imposing 'loan payback' Governments.

    "What you hear in the grandiose speeches of European leaders and the bumptious pronouncements of EU officials is precisely this: we have an ideal system which can guarantee infinite security and wellbeing, provided that everyone behaves in ways that are consistent with the rules of life as we describe them." There’s nothing new about this European folly - Telegraph

    What if democracy is not consistent? The answer is clear; it must make way. The problem is Greece etc are fundamentaly democratic - they had to be to join the EU! But the EU's priorities have evidently changed so that Germany and others can get their loans repayed, that they freely gave. Now these countries cannot afford democracy, it is reserved for the creditor nations.

    How long it will take these subjugated nations (for that is what they are) to repay the loans the EU happily colluded in giving them depends now on the centraly imposed new Governments. Welcome to the EUSSR... The chances are they will impose ever greater austerity and go, like Greece, into a death spiral. Changing people in charge doesn't change facts. Of course the longer the imposed Eurocrats take to repay the loans the more likely is a 'rebellion' - a democracy! Shock horror! So the creditor nations want their money asap which means means deeper cuts and death spiral.

    Look there are basic facts underlying ALL this:

    A. Some nations should NEVER have been alowed to join the Euro. I believe Sarkozy even said this of this Greece. Why was it? Because the EU and the Greeks colluded in a fraud the like of which has never been seen before. They did this because the Euro IS NOT an economic tool but part of a political idealism. (You kind of have to believe it to see it).

    B. As a result of Germany being the biggest single Euro economy (and the French being scared stiff of a re-unified Germany) the Euro was set up along German lines. Thus the ECB is independant and is forbidden to print money to sort the current problems. Essentialy the Euro became 'Deutchemark 2'. Who profits? Naturaly the country most used to the system.

    C. The countries that were least used to 'German economics' did well at first - cheap loans which they couldn't realy afford but lenders were happy to collude in this fraud also, after all they stand to gain!

    D. Now we have the frauds exposed and still the people that profited from the structure they set up want their loans repayed.

    E. In the meantime the EU and it's commission continues sending out 'drectives' (over 100k now!) and 'harmonising' our economies re bananas etc etc etc, paying farmers NOT to grow food and fishermen to put dead fish they have caught back in the sea. This 'Tobin tax' proposal on all stock trades is but the latest on their insane ideas on how the world should be.

    The discrepenancy between reality and idealism was ALWAYS going to have crunch at some point and now we are sacrificing democracy for the idealists to continue their insanity and force others along a German inspired model. Hence Germany forbids ECB printing money and refuses more guarantees.

    The job of the Eurocrats in Greece and Italy is nothing less than to make their countries into German look alikes - while also repaying the creditors. Otherwise funds are cut! This is continent wide case of having cake and eating it based on the creditors having colluded in the frauds that led them to this position - for an ideal!

    Now I dare say there is much corruption and tax evasion etc in the southern countries and they would welcome a Government that deals with such problems. However Greece is expected to reach 120% debt to GNP ratio in 2020 (where they started at the time of first loan) and if Italy is forced the same medicine it is unlikely it too will recover before 2019, although they say 2014. Italian growth is forcast circa 0.5% next year which would mean cuts of another 2-3% at the very least.

    These 'pseudo democracies' are unlikely to be short term therefore and may be joined by Spain next (supposed to be 20th this month). The coalition/unity Governments in ALL debtor nations until they realign to the German model can only offer austerity until the debts are secure. The risk of the downward spiral for ALL is clear.

    Imposing Eurocrats in whatever guise and their austerity programmes is unlikely to be sustainable that long.

    "What's more important in this case the Greek parliament formed a technical Government to organize free and fair elections and with a clear mandate to accept the austerity measures.

    How is this dangerous for peace in Europe?

    From what I understand you think people vote for parties and then you are surprised some party members not always vote as the party says.
    What's the purpose of Parliament in that way. Once the elections are over there is no need to form a Parliament. The Party with most votes would form a Government and would govern the country in the next 4 (in UK 5) years. Is that a democracy in your view?"


    I very much hope that the new Greek Government will hold elections in February, as I am told they plan. Otherwise the longer Government continues imposing it's ultra austerity programme (because that's what it's about) without a mandate for the new Prime Minister the greater the chance for civil disturbance/disobedience or even military coup or civil war. Governments and Parliaments acting without consulting the people are dangerous the longer they continue, particlulary when they forced to make cuts.

    On your second question: A Parliament is there to act a check on the Executive: They are supposed stop any Government infringing too far on our freedoms. The Greek and Italian Parliaments have, in my opinion, failed in some of their duties. So no that it not my view, indeed as I said before I wish my own MP had voted against the Government in the recent referendum debate.

    My point is that ultimately MPs represent the public. The Greek and Italian MPs have NOT asked the public.
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  13. #148
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    To be fair,Germany is right in not allowing ECB to print.Doing so would ruin theirs and France's AAA rating,meaning they go down as well.Logical solution would be to stop losses and split the EZ,but the eurocrats still have hope this can be avoided.Thus,trying to avert an economic crisis rollback the EU,they took the most comfortable course of action in the short run.The fact that this is the most dangerous in the long run likely never crossed their minds.

    It wouldn't be bad for all countries to be run like Germany.But that's unachievable for many reasons.First being that Germany is still inhabited by Germans.
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    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    I have tried to go point by point but gave up.

    Mihais summed it up nicely.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    "Now that Mario Monti has appointed himself Finance Minister of Italy as well as being Prime Minister (presumably because he couldn't find anyone he trusted for the job other than himself), how about head of the army and the police as well? Now that virtually all constitutional bets are off, what exactly is there to stop one man choosing to occupy all the most powerful governmental posts in that country?

    And another question: what precisely are the mechanisms by which this temporary suspension of democracy will be brought to an end? I know that, in principle, the present rulers could be brought down by a vote of "no confidence" in the Italian parliament but that would precipitate chaos (which is why it is most unlikely to happen) not an orderly return to government by the people. I know too that at the moment there is vague talk of elections being held next year but will the present, unelected officials (running as a "technocrat party"?) be able to contest them? Has anybody thought through the next stage? When and how is democracy to be re-instated in the third largest economy of Europe? And if it is not re-instated in the near future, does that make a nonsense of the rule that a country must be a democracy to be eligible for membership of the EU?"


    What is the schedule for the return of democracy? – Telegraph Blogs

    Well I predicted that he'd make himself Minister of Finance as well as Prime Minister... next?

    Mihais I am not arguing about whether the ECB should print money - that's a German/French arguement. My point is about democratic accountability.

    As one of the comments to this blog says 'The lights are going out all over Europe.' (No it wasn't me!)
    Last edited by snapper; 17 Nov 11, at 16:56.

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