Thread: Obama calls for Israel's return to pre-1967 borders

Originally Posted by bigross86

Egypt was an aggressor state in 1967 in every sense of the word, Gaza is Israel's.

Jordan was an aggressor state in 1967 in every sense of the word, the West Bank is Israel's.

Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were illegally occupied by Egypt/Jordan. You cannot take in defnesive war what did not belong to the agressor before the war. The only other time it happened was the Russian shift of Poland. Israel is not the untouchable juggernaut opposed by war weary western powers that the USSR was.

The only way to annex those lands is by plebliscite. I wonder how many Palestinians would vote for complete union and citizenship with Israel? They would start with half the government and rapidly gain more and more seats since they breed faster. Then they could pass the laws they wanted dealing with the right of return, oaths of alliegance, state support of religious instatutions, citizneship requirements.....

Imagine its 2025 and the Palestinians now control the knesset. They decide to pass a law that no one who cannot trace a direct forefather to the Levant before 1979 is entitled to citizenship. They could appropriate the Jewish national Fund, mandate compulsive Islamic education.... Irael really needs to talk to the Egyptian Coptics and Iraqi Chaldeans about living in a modern Islamic state.

Israel has 2 choices-

1. stop pretendign to be humanitarian and follow her polices to the obvious result
2. change course and embrace the fundamental principles of Judaism.

Originally Posted by InExile

Okay then; annex the West Bank and Gaza and give the Palestinians citizenship.

That's the connundrum. While me and Z might circle round the current status, Israel needs to either claim and give citizenship or back an independent state

Originally Posted by Parihaka

That's the connundrum. While me and Z might circle round the current status, Israel needs to either claim and give citizenship or back an independent state

Quite. The 'sh1t or get off the pot' option. The current situation isn't sustainable.

Speech by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to a Joint Meeting of the United States Congress

May 24, 2011

I am deeply honored by your warm welcome. And I am deeply honored that you have given me the opportunity to address Congress a second time.

Mr. Vice President, do you remember the time we were the new kids in town?

And I do see a lot of old friends here. And I do see a lot of new friends of Israel here. Democrats and Republicans alike.

Israel has no better friend than America. And America has no better friend than Israel. We stand together to defend democracy. We stand together to advance peace. We stand together to fight terrorism. Congratulations America, Congratulations, Mr. President. You got bin Laden. Good riddance!

In an unstable Middle East, Israel is the one anchor of stability. In a region of shifting alliances, Israel is America’s unwavering ally. Israel has always been pro-American. Israel will always be pro-American.

My friends, you don’t need to do nation building in Israel. We’re already built. You don’t need to export democracy to Israel. We’ve already got it. You don’t need to send American troops to defend Israel. We defend ourselves. You’ve been very generous in giving us tools to do the job of defending Israel on our own. Thank you all, and thank you President Obama, for your steadfast commitment to Israel’s security. I know economic times are tough. I deeply appreciate this.

Support for Israel’s security is a wise investment in our common future. For an epic battle is now unfolding in the Middle East, between tyranny and freedom. A great convulsion is shaking the earth from the Khyber Pass to the Straits of Gibraltar. The tremors have shattered states and toppled governments. And we can all see that the ground is still shifting. Now this historic moment holds the promise of a new dawn of freedom and opportunity. Millions of young people are determined to change their future. We all look at them. They muster courage. They risk their lives. They demand dignity. They desire liberty.

These extraordinary scenes in Tunis and Cairo, evoke those of Berlin and Prague in 1989. Yet as we share their hopes, but we also must also remember that those hopes could be snuffed out as they were in Tehran in 1979. You remember what happened then. The brief democratic spring in Iran was cut short by a ferocious and unforgiving tyranny. This same tyranny smothered Lebanon’s democratic Cedar Revolution, and inflicted on that long-suffering country, the medieval rule of Hezbollah.

So today, the Middle East stands at a fateful crossroads. Like all of you, I pray that the peoples of the region choose the path less travelled, the path of liberty. No one knows what this path consists of better than you. This path is not paved by elections alone. It is paved when governments permit protests in town squares, when limits are placed on the powers of rulers, when judges are beholden to laws and not men, and when human rights cannot be crushed by tribal loyalties or mob rule.

Israel has always embraced this path, in the Middle East has long rejected it. In a region where women are stoned, gays are hanged, Christians are persecuted, Israel stands out. It is different.

As the great English writer George Eliot predicted over a century ago, that once established, the Jewish state will “shine like a bright star of freedom amid the despotisms of the East.” Well, she was right. We have a free press, independent courts, an open economy, rambunctious parliamentary debates. You think you guys are tough on one another in Congress? Come spend a day in the Knesset. Be my guest.

Courageous Arab protesters, are now struggling to secure these very same rights for their peoples, for their societies. We’re proud that over one million Arab citizens of Israel have been enjoying these rights for decades. Of the 300 million Arabs in the Middle East and North Africa, only Israel’s Arab citizens enjoy real democratic rights. I want you to stop for a second and think about that. Of those 300 million Arabs, less than one-half of one-percent are truly free, and they’re all citizens of Israel!

This startling fact reveals a basic truth: Israel is not what is wrong about the Middle East. Israel is what is right about the Middle East.

Israel fully supports the desire of Arab peoples in our region to live freely. We long for the day when Israel will be one of many real democracies in the Middle East.

Fifteen years ago, I stood at this very podium, and said that democracy must start to take root in the Arab World. Well, it’s begun to take root. This beginning holds the promise of a brilliant future of peace and prosperity. For I believe that a Middle East that is genuinely democratic will be a Middle East truly at peace.

But while we hope and work for the best, we must also recognize that powerful forces oppose this future. They oppose modernity. They oppose democracy. They oppose peace.

Foremost among these forces is Iran. The tyranny in Tehran brutalizes its own people. It supports attacks against American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. It subjugates Lebanon and Gaza. It sponsors terror worldwide.

When I last stood here, I spoke of the dire consequences of Iran developing nuclear weapons. Now time is running out, and the hinge of history may soon turn. For the greatest danger facing humanity could soon be upon us: A militant Islamic regime armed with nuclear weapons.

Militant Islam threatens the world. It threatens Islam. I have no doubt that it will ultimately be defeated. It will eventually succumb to the forces of freedom and progress. But like other fanaticisms that were doomed to fail, militant Islam could exact a horrific price from all of us before its inevitable demise.

A nuclear-armed Iran would ignite a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. It would give terrorists a nuclear umbrella. It would make the nightmare of nuclear terrorism a clear and present danger throughout the world. I want you to understand what this means. They could put the bomb anywhere. They could put it on a missile. It could be on a container ship in a port, or in a suitcase on a subway.

Now the threat to my country cannot be overstated. Those who dismiss it are sticking their heads in the sand. Less than seven decades after six million Jews were murdered, Iran’s leaders deny the Holocaust of the Jewish people, while calling for the annihilation of the Jewish state.

Leaders who spew such venom, should be banned from every respectable forum on the planet. But there is something that makes the outrage even greater: The lack of outrage. In much of the international community, the calls for our destruction are met with utter silence. It is even worse because there are many who rush to condemn Israel for defending itself against Iran’s terror proxies.

But not you. Not America. You have acted differently. You’ve condemned the Iranian regime for its genocidal aims. You’ve passed tough sanctions against Iran. History will salute you America.

President Obama has said that the United States is determined to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. He successfully led the Security Council to adopt sanctions against Iran. You in Congress passed even tougher sanctions. These words and deeds are vitally important.

Yet the Ayatollah regime briefly suspended its nuclear program only once, in 2003, when it feared the possibility of military action. That same year, Muammar Qadaffi gave up his nuclear weapons program, and for the same reason. The more Iran believes that all options are on the table, the less the chance of confrontation. This is why I ask you to continue to send an unequivocal message: That America will never permit Iran to develop nuclear weapons.

As for Israel, if history has taught the Jewish people anything, it is that we must take calls for our destruction seriously. We are a nation that rose from the ashes of the Holocaust. When we say never again, we mean never again. Israel always reserves the right to defend itself.

My friends, while Israel will be ever vigilant in its defense, we will never give up on our quest for peace. I guess we’ll give it up when we achieve it. Israel wants peace. Israel needs peace. We’ve achieved historic peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan that have held up for decades.

I remember what it was like before we had peace. I was nearly killed in a firefight inside the Suez Canal. I mean that literally. I battled terrorists along both banks of the Jordan River. Too many Israelis have lost loved ones. I know their grief. I lost my brother.

So no one in Israel wants a return to those terrible days. The peace with Egypt and Jordan has long served as an anchor of stability and peace in the heart of the Middle East.

This peace should be bolstered by economic and political support to all those who remain committed to peace.

The peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan are vital. But they’re not enough. We must also find a way to forge a lasting peace with the Palestinians. Two years ago, I publicly committed to a solution of two states for two peoples: A Palestinian state alongside the Jewish state.

I am willing to make painful compromises to achieve this historic peace. As the leader of Israel, it is my responsibility to lead my people to peace.

This is not easy for me. I recognize that in a genuine peace, we will be required to give up parts of the Jewish homeland. In Judea and Samaria, the Jewish people are not foreign occupiers. We are not the British in India. We are not the Belgians in the Congo.

This is the land of our forefathers, the Land of Israel, to which Abraham brought the idea of one God, where David set out to confront Goliath, and where Isaiah saw a vision of eternal peace. No distortion of history can deny the four thousand year old bond, between the Jewish people and the Jewish land.

But there is another truth: The Palestinians share this small land with us. We seek a peace in which they will be neither Israel’s subjects nor its citizens. They should enjoy a national life of dignity as a free, viable and independent people in their own state. They should enjoy a prosperous economy, where their creativity and initiative can flourish.

We’ve already seen the beginnings of what is possible. In the last two years,

the Palestinians have begun to build a better life for themselves. Prime Minister Fayad has led this effort. I wish him a speedy recovery from his recent operation.

We’ve helped the Palestinian economy by removing hundreds of barriers and roadblocks to the free flow of goods and people. The results have been nothing short of remarkable. The Palestinian economy is booming. It’s growing by more than 10% a year.

Palestinian cities look very different today than they did just a few years ago. They have shopping malls, movie theaters, restaurants, banks. They even have e-businesses. This is all happening without peace. Imagine what could happen with peace. Peace would herald a new day for both peoples. It would make the dream of a broader Arab-Israeli peace a realistic possibility.

So now here is the question. You have to ask it. If the benefits of peace with the Palestinians are so clear, why has peace eluded us? Because all six Israeli Prime Ministers since the signing of Oslo accords agreed to establish a Palestinian state. Myself included. So why has peace not been achieved? Because so far, the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Palestinian state, if it meant accepting a Jewish state alongside it.

You see, our conflict has never been about the establishment of a Palestinian state. It has always been about the existence of the Jewish state. This is what this conflict is about. In 1947, the United Nations voted to partition the land into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews said yes. The Palestinians said no. In recent years, the Palestinians twice refused generous offers by Israeli Prime Ministers, to establish a Palestinian state on virtually all the territory won by Israel in the Six Day War.

They were simply unwilling to end the conflict. And I regret to say this: They continue to educate their children to hate. They continue to name public squares after terrorists. And worst of all, they continue to perpetuate the fantasy that Israel will one day be flooded by the descendants of Palestinian refugees.

My friends, this must come to an end. President Abbas must do what I have done. I stood before my people, and I told you it wasn’t easy for me, and I said… “I will accept a Palestinian state.” It is time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say… “I will accept a Jewish state.”

Those six words will change history. They will make clear to the Palestinians that this conflict must come to an end. That they are not building a state to continue the conflict with Israel, but to end it. They will convince the people of Israel that they have a true partner for peace. With such a partner, the people of Israel will be prepared to make a far reaching compromise. I will be prepared to make a far reaching compromise.

This compromise must reflect the dramatic demographic changes that have occurred since 1967. The vast majority of the 650,000 Israelis who live beyond the 1967 lines, reside in neighborhoods and suburbs of Jerusalem and Greater Tel Aviv.

These areas are densely populated but geographically quite small. Under any realistic peace agreement, these areas, as well as other places of critical strategic and national importance, will be incorporated into the final borders of Israel.

The status of the settlements will be decided only in negotiations. But we must also be honest. So I am saying today something that should be said publicly by anyone serious about peace. In any peace agreement that ends the conflict, some settlements will end up beyond Israel’s borders. The precise delineation of those borders must be negotiated. We will be very generous on the size of a future Palestinian state. But as President Obama said, the border will be different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967. Israel will not return to the indefensible lines of 1967.

We recognize that a Palestinian state must be big enough to be viable, independent and prosperous. President Obama rightly referred to Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, just as he referred to the future Palestinian state as the homeland of the Palestinian people. Jews from around the world have a right to immigrate to the Jewish state. Palestinians from around the world should have a right to immigrate, if they so choose, to a Palestinian state. This means that the Palestinian refugee problem will be resolved outside the borders of Israel.

As for Jerusalem, only a democratic Israel has protected freedom of worship for all faiths in the city. Jerusalem must never again be divided. Jerusalem must remain the united capital of Israel. I know that this is a difficult issue for Palestinians. But I believe with creativity and goodwill a solution can be found.

This is the peace I plan to forge with a Palestinian partner committed to peace. But you know very well, that in the Middle East, the only peace that will hold is a peace you can defend.

So peace must be anchored in security. In recent years, Israel withdrew from South Lebanon and Gaza. But we didn’t get peace. Instead, we got 12,000 thousand rockets fired from those areas on our cities, on our children, by Hezbollah and Hamas. The UN peacekeepers in Lebanon failed to prevent the smuggling of this weaponry. The European observers in Gaza evaporated overnight. So if Israel simply walked out of the territories, the flow of weapons into a future Palestinian state would be unchecked. Missiles fired from it could reach virtually every home in Israel in less than a minute. I want you to think about that too. Imagine that right now we all had less than 60 seconds to find shelter from an incoming rocket. Would you live that way? Would anyone live that way? Well, we aren’t going to live that way either.

The truth is that Israel needs unique security arrangements because of its unique size. Israel is one of the smallest countries in the world. Mr. Vice President, I’ll grant you this. It’s bigger than Delaware. It’s even bigger than Rhode Island. But that’s about it. Israel on the 1967 lines would be half the width of the Washington Beltway.

Now here’s a bit of nostalgia. I first came to Washington thirty years ago as a young diplomat. It took me a while, but I finally figured it out: There is an America beyond the Beltway. But Israel on the 1967 lines would be only nine miles wide. So much for strategic depth.

So it is therefore absolutely vital for Israel’s security that a Palestinian state be fully demilitarized. And it is vital that Israel maintain a long-term military presence along the Jordan River. Solid security arrangements on the ground are necessary not only to protect the peace, they are necessary to protect Israel in case the peace unravels. For in our unstable region, no one can guarantee that our peace partners today will be there tomorrow.

And when I say tomorrow, I don’t mean some distant time in the future. I mean — tomorrow. Peace can be achieved only around the negotiating table. The Palestinian attempt to impose a settlement through the United Nations will not bring peace. It should be forcefully opposed by all those who want to see this conflict end.

I appreciate the President’s clear position on this issue. Peace cannot be imposed. It must be negotiated. But it can only be negotiated with partners committed to peace.

And Hamas is not a partner for peace. Hamas remains committed to Israel’s destruction and to terrorism. They have a charter. That charter not only calls for the obliteration of Israel, but says ‘kill the Jews wherever you find them’. Hamas’ leader condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden and praised him as a holy warrior. Now again I want to make this clear. Israel is prepared to sit down today and negotiate peace with the Palestinian Authority. I believe we can fashion a brilliant future of peace for our children. But Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government backed by the Palestinian version of Al Qaeda.

So I say to President Abbas: Tear up your pact with Hamas! Sit down and negotiate! Make peace with the Jewish state! And if you do, I promise you this. Israel will not be the last country to welcome a Palestinian state as a new member of the United Nations. It will be the first to do so.

My friends, the momentous trials of the last century, and the unfolding events of this century, attest to the decisive role of the United States in advancing peace and defending freedom. Providence entrusted the United States to be the guardian of liberty. All peoples who cherish freedom owe a profound debt of gratitude to your great nation. Among the most grateful nations is my nation, the people of Israel, who have fought for their liberty and survival against impossible odds, in ancient and modern times alike.

I speak on behalf of the Jewish people and the Jewish state when I say to you, representatives of America, Thank you. Thank you for your unwavering support for Israel. Thank you for ensuring that the flame of freedom burns bright throughout the world. May God bless all of you. And may God forever bless the United States of America.

End transcript.

Looking at the ovations, I was thinking Rolling Stones came in the Congress

Speech by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to a Joint Meeting of the United States Congress

May 24, 2011

I am deeply honored by your warm welcome. And I am deeply honored that you have given me the opportunity to address Congress a second time.

Mr. Vice President, do you remember the time we were the new kids in town?

And I do see a lot of old friends here. And I do see a lot of new friends of Israel here. Democrats and Republicans alike.[/quote]

Look in the mirror and you wouldn't see one.

Israel has no better friend than America. And America has no better friend than Israel.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

We stand together to defend democracy.

Wait what, half the people Israel controls have no vote

We stand together to advance peace. We stand together to fight terrorism. Congratulations America, Congratulations, Mr. President. You got bin Laden. Good riddance!

By advancing peace he apparently means pushing the date peace will be achieved even further into the future.

[quot]In an unstable Middle East, Israel is the one anchor of stability. In a region of shifting alliances, Israel is America’s unwavering ally. Israel has always been pro-American. Israel will always be pro-American.[/quote]

Well Israeli stability is built on oppression... Domestically the Israeli government panders to the right and drops bombs on any Palestinians who resist the theft of their future. Not much different than what Arab Sunnis do to the Shia minorities.

My friends, you don’t need to do nation building in Israel. We’re already built.

Great, good to know, now please stop building

You don’t need to export democracy to Israel. We’ve already got it.

Ya for Jews, for Palestinians is on the embargo list like Chocolate and plastic sheeting.

You don’t need to send American troops to defend Israel. We defend ourselves.

American lives have been pledged to Israel's defense since 1979

You’ve been very generous in giving us tools to do the job of defending Israel on our own.

How is bombing apartment blocks in Tyre, or dropping willie pete rounds in enclosed courtyards in Gaza defense?

Thank you all, and thank you President Obama, for your steadfast commitment to Israel’s security. I know economic times are tough. I deeply appreciate this.

Thank AIPAC.

Support for Israel’s security is a wise investment in our common future.

Its an investment that is wise if you hold stock in defense contractors. For all others Israel has brought the US little positive: fuel embargo, terror attacks, help cost us an even more important ally....

For an epic battle is now unfolding in the Middle East, between tyranny and freedom.

Palestinians have been saying that for some time.

A great convulsion is shaking the earth from the Khyber Pass to the Straits of Gibraltar. The tremors have shattered states and toppled governments.

Then take heed

And we can all see that the ground is still shifting. Now this historic moment holds the promise of a new dawn of freedom and opportunity. Millions of young people are determined to change their future. We all look at them. They muster courage. They risk their lives. They demand dignity. They desire liberty.

And if the are Palestinians we shoot them for it.

These extraordinary scenes in Tunis and Cairo, evoke those of Berlin and Prague in 1989. Yet as we share their hopes, but we also must also remember that those hopes could be snuffed out as they were in Tehran in 1979. You remember what happened then. The brief democratic spring in Iran was cut short by a ferocious and unforgiving tyranny. This same tyranny smothered Lebanon’s democratic Cedar Revolution, and inflicted on that long-suffering country, the medieval rule of Hezbollah.

Well, why has Lebanon been long suffering? Could it have something to do with the massive influx of refugees pushed in, followed a dew decades later by the IDF, who then picked sides in a civil war?

So today, the Middle East stands at a fateful crossroads. Like all of you, I pray that the peoples of the region choose the path less travelled, the path of liberty. No one knows what this path consists of better than you.

Well we know no one knows it less than you, liberty for Palestinians is a road not traveled.

This path is not paved by elections alone. It is paved when governments permit protests in town squares,

The let the Palestinians demonstrate...

when limits are placed on the powers of rulers,

can we limit yours?

when judges are beholden to laws and not men,

Can we make settlers beholden to judges?

and when human rights cannot be crushed by tribal loyalties or mob rule.

who needs mobs and tribes to crush things when you have 70 ton Merkavas to do it....

Israel has always embraced this path,

If you mean the path of brutality.... finally some honesty.

in the Middle East has long rejected it. In a region where women are stoned, gays are hanged, Christians are persecuted, Israel stands out. It is different.

Ya because in Israel its Jews not Moslems doing the dirty deeds. other than religious creed there is little functional difference.

As the great English writer George Eliot predicted over a century ago, that once established, the Jewish state will “shine like a bright star of freedom amid the despotisms of the East.” Well, she was right. We have a free press, independent courts, an open economy, rambunctious parliamentary debates. You think you guys are tough on one another in Congress? Come spend a day in the Knesset. Be my guest.

But only half the people have the vote....

Courageous Arab protesters, are now struggling to secure these very same rights for their peoples, for their societies. We’re proud that over one million Arab citizens of Israel have been enjoying these rights for decades. Of the 300 million Arabs in the Middle East and North Africa, only Israel’s Arab citizens enjoy real democratic rights. I want you to stop for a second and think about that. Of those 300 million Arabs, less than one-half of one-percent are truly free, and they’re all citizens of Israel!

But only 1 of 4 Arabs in Israel is a citizen..... makes you go hrmmmm

This startling fact reveals a basic truth: Israel is not what is wrong about the Middle East. Israel is what is right about the Middle East.

Ya right in the middle of most of the areas problems.

Israel fully supports the desire of Arab peoples in our region to live freely. We long for the day when Israel will be one of many real democracies in the Middle East.

I can smell the stinking brown stuff from that statement all the way in Arkansas.

Fifteen years ago, I stood at this very podium, and said that democracy must start to take root in the Arab World. Well, it’s begun to take root. This beginning holds the promise of a brilliant future of peace and prosperity. For I believe that a Middle East that is genuinely democratic will be a Middle East truly at peace.

Wow, you only managed to delay democracy by 15 years- your getting slow bibi.

But while we hope and work for the best, we must also recognize that powerful forces oppose this future. They oppose modernity. They oppose democracy. They oppose peace.

And yet you let them build settlements and send in the IDF to protect them......

[/quote]Foremost among these forces is Iran. The tyranny in Tehran brutalizes its own people. It supports attacks against American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. It subjugates Lebanon and Gaza. It sponsors terror worldwide.[/quote]

The Tyranny in Israel brutalizes the Palestinians. Its safer to demonstrate in Tehran than in the West Bank.

They attack us, you spy in us....

Wait- who sent in the troops to Lebanon and Gaza, it wasn't Iran.

True, Israel doesn't sponsor, she sends the Mossad to do it.

When I last stood here, I spoke of the dire consequences of Iran developing nuclear weapons. Now time is running out, and the hinge of history may soon turn. For the greatest danger facing humanity could soon be upon us: A militant Islamic regime armed with nuclear weapons.

Ever wonder why so many Moslems want an Islama-bomb? Secret Decoder Ring spells D.I.M.O.N.A.....

Militant Islam threatens the world. It threatens Islam.

Wait what- it was Israeli politicians that said a WWIII global thermonuclear war was a fitting outcome if Israel fell to the Arabs....

I have no doubt that it will ultimately be defeated. It will eventually succumb to the forces of freedom and progress. But like other fanaticisms that were doomed to fail, militant Islam could exact a horrific price from all of us before its inevitable demise.

Same goes for militant Judaism.

A nuclear-armed Iran would ignite a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. It would give terrorists a nuclear umbrella. It would make the nightmare of nuclear terrorism a clear and present danger throughout the world. I want you to understand what this means. They could put the bomb anywhere. They could put it on a missile. It could be on a container ship in a port, or in a suitcase on a subway.

Iran can not ignite the race, Israel already did... Where are those Israeli warheads.... perhaps in a container ship, or in a suitcase?

Now the threat to my country cannot be overstated.

Apparently it can since your doing it....

Those who dismiss it are sticking their heads in the sand. Less than seven decades after six million Jews were murdered, Iran’s leaders deny the Holocaust of the Jewish people, while calling for the annihilation of the Jewish state.

while Iran calls, Israel perfects annihlation.....

Leaders who spew such venom, should be banned from every respectable forum on the planet. But there is something that makes the outrage even greater: The lack of outrage. In much of the international community, the calls for our destruction are met with utter silence. It is even worse because there are many who rush to condemn Israel for defending itself against Iran’s terror proxies.

You spew such Venom, can you buy one of those Russian rockets and take off?

But not you. Not America. You have acted differently. You’ve condemned the Iranian regime for its genocidal aims. You’ve passed tough sanctions against Iran. History will salute you America.

Be glad America isn't true to her ideals or Israel would be fokked.

President Obama has said that the United States is determined to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. He successfully led the Security Council to adopt sanctions against Iran. You in Congress passed even tougher sanctions. These words and deeds are vitally important.

Yet the Ayatollah regime briefly suspended its nuclear program only once, in 2003, when it feared the possibility of military action. That same year, Muammar Qadaffi gave up his nuclear weapons program, and for the same reason. The more Iran believes that all options are on the table, the less the chance of confrontation. This is why I ask you to continue to send an unequivocal message: That America will never permit Iran to develop nuclear weapons.

What if we send an unequivocal message about illegal settlements?

As for Israel, if history has taught the Jewish people anything, it is that we must take calls for our destruction seriously. We are a nation that rose from the ashes of the Holocaust. When we say never again, we mean never again.

No, you mean never again unless its the Jews doing it.

Israel always reserves the right to defend itself.

Great will you start exercising it instead of causing conflicts?

My friends, while Israel will be ever vigilant in its defense, we will never give up on our quest for peace.

We know- a piece here, a piece there and pretty soon your talking most of the West bank and all of east Jerusalem.

I guess we’ll give it up when we achieve it. Israel wants peace. Israel needs peace. We’ve achieved historic peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan that have held up for decades.

If you want real peace stop making war....

I remember what it was like before we had peace. I was nearly killed in a firefight inside the Suez Canal. I mean that literally. I battled terrorists along both banks of the Jordan River. Too many Israelis have lost loved ones. I know their grief. I lost my brother.

Israelis have no idea what suffering is, if they did they would not inflict so much pain on the Palestinians.

So no one in Israel wants a return to those terrible days. The peace with Egypt and Jordan has long served as an anchor of stability and peace in the heart of the Middle East.

This peace should be bolstered by economic and political support to all those who remain committed to peace.

The peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan are vital. But they’re not enough.

Another lie, I can name several right wing groups in Israel who do want war.

We must also find a way to forge a lasting peace with the Palestinians. Two years ago, I publicly committed to a solution of two states for two peoples: A Palestinian state alongside the Jewish state.

Ya, but you forget that states need land... with 50/50 population you want to divide the land 90/10....

I am willing to make painful compromises to achieve this historic peace. As the leader of Israel, it is my responsibility to lead my people to peace.

Painful to whom...

This is not easy for me. I recognize that in a genuine peace, we will be required to give up parts of the Jewish homeland. In Judea and Samaria, the Jewish people are not foreign occupiers. We are not the British in India. We are not the Belgians in the Congo.

No one is asking Israel to give up the Jewish homeland, just the illegally occupied areas of Palestine.

This is the land of our forefathers, the Land of Israel, to which Abraham brought the idea of one God, where David set out to confront Goliath, and where Isaiah saw a vision of eternal peace. No distortion of history can deny the four thousand year old bond, between the Jewish people and the Jewish land.

Funny thing is genetics also establish a 4000 year Palestinian link to the area....

But there is another truth: The Palestinians share this small land with us. We seek a peace in which they will be neither Israel’s subjects nor its citizens. They should enjoy a national life of dignity as a free, viable and independent people in their own state. They should enjoy a prosperous economy, where their creativity and initiative can flourish.

Yes they do, why wont you let them?

We’ve already seen the beginnings of what is possible. In the last two years,

the Palestinians have begun to build a better life for themselves. Prime Minister Fayad has led this effort. I wish him a speedy recovery from his recent operation.

We’ve helped the Palestinian economy by removing hundreds of barriers and roadblocks to the free flow of goods and people. The results have been nothing short of remarkable. The Palestinian economy is booming. It’s growing by more than 10% a year.

Proof your road blocks are the reason their economy tanked in the first place

Palestinian cities look very different today than they did just a few years ago. They have shopping malls, movie theaters, restaurants, banks. They even have e-businesses. This is all happening without peace. Imagine what could happen with peace. Peace would herald a new day for both peoples. It would make the dream of a broader Arab-Israeli peace a realistic possibility.

Which is why you oppose it

So now here is the question. You have to ask it. If the benefits of peace with the Palestinians are so clear, why has peace eluded us? Because all six Israeli Prime Ministers since the signing of Oslo accords agreed to establish a Palestinian state. Myself included. So why has peace not been achieved? Because so far, the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Palestinian state, if it meant accepting a Jewish state alongside it.

hrmm typo maybe? maybe he meant- the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Palestinian state, if it meant accepting a Jewish state inside of it.

You see, our conflict has never been about the establishment of a Palestinian state. It has always been about the existence of the Jewish state. This is what this conflict is about. In 1947, the United Nations voted to partition the land into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews said yes. The Palestinians said no. In recent years, the Palestinians twice refused generous offers by Israeli Prime Ministers, to establish a Palestinian state on virtually all the territory won by Israel in the Six Day War.

Ya you offered to only keep 10% of what is not yours.... In business its called extortion.

They were simply unwilling to end the conflict. And I regret to say this: They continue to educate their children to hate. They continue to name public squares after terrorists. And worst of all, they continue to perpetuate the fantasy that Israel will one day be flooded by the descendants of Palestinian refugees.

one day flooded with vs the every day flooded with Jewish settlers....

My friends, this must come to an end. President Abbas must do what I have done. I stood before my people, and I told you it wasn’t easy for me, and I said… “I will accept a Palestinian state.” It is time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say… “I will accept a Jewish state.”

I am sure he would if that didn't mean giving in to Israeli theft of the best parts of the West bank and all of East Jerusalem.

Those six words will change history. They will make clear to the Palestinians that this conflict must come to an end. That they are not building a state to continue the conflict with Israel, but to end it. They will convince the people of Israel that they have a true partner for peace. With such a partner, the people of Israel will be prepared to make a far reaching compromise. I will be prepared to make a far reaching compromise.

The pace of settlement building says your lying.

This compromise must reflect the dramatic demographic changes that have occurred since 1967. The vast majority of the 650,000 Israelis who live beyond the 1967 lines, reside in neighborhoods and suburbs of Jerusalem and Greater Tel Aviv.

These areas are densely populated but geographically quite small. Under any realistic peace agreement, these areas, as well as other places of critical strategic and national importance, will be incorporated into the final borders of Israel.

theft is theft no matter how you cut it.

The status of the settlements will be decided only in negotiations. But we must also be honest. So I am saying today something that should be said publicly by anyone serious about peace. In any peace agreement that ends the conflict, some settlements will end up beyond Israel’s borders. The precise delineation of those borders must be negotiated. We will be very generous on the size of a future Palestinian state. But as President Obama said, the border will be different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967. Israel will not return to the indefensible lines of 1967.

If the border of June 4, 1967 could not be defended how did Israel win?

We recognize that a Palestinian state must be big enough to be viable, independent and prosperous. President Obama rightly referred to Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, just as he referred to the future Palestinian state as the homeland of the Palestinian people. Jews from around the world have a right to immigrate to the Jewish state. Palestinians from around the world should have a right to immigrate, if they so choose, to a Palestinian state. This means that the Palestinian refugee problem will be resolved outside the borders of Israel.

That is right the problem will be decided outside of Israel, eventually the entire world with tire of your brutality.

As for Jerusalem, only a democratic Israel has protected freedom of worship for all faiths in the city.

And the ottomans and British...

Jerusalem must never again be divided. Jerusalem must remain the united capital of Israel. I know that this is a difficult issue for Palestinians. But I believe with creativity and goodwill a solution can be found.

creativity and goodwill.... code words for go suck an egg?

[/quote]This is the peace I plan to forge with a Palestinian partner committed to peace. But you know very well, that in the Middle East, the only peace that will hold is a peace you can defend.[/quote]

so if you can't defend it, its not peace? Gotcha!

So peace must be anchored in security. In recent years, Israel withdrew from South Lebanon and Gaza. But we didn’t get peace. Instead, we got 12,000 thousand rockets fired from those areas on our cities, on our children, by Hezbollah and Hamas. The UN peacekeepers in Lebanon failed to prevent the smuggling of this weaponry. The European observers in Gaza evaporated overnight. So if Israel simply walked out of the territories, the flow of weapons into a future Palestinian state would be unchecked. Missiles fired from it could reach virtually every home in Israel in less than a minute. I want you to think about that too. Imagine that right now we all had less than 60 seconds to find shelter from an incoming rocket. Would you live that way? Would anyone live that way? Well, we aren’t going to live that way either.

You make the Palestinians live that way....

The truth is that Israel needs unique security arrangements because of its unique size. Israel is one of the smallest countries in the world. Mr. Vice President, I’ll grant you this. It’s bigger than Delaware. It’s even bigger than Rhode Island. But that’s about it. Israel on the 1967 lines would be half the width of the Washington Beltway.

And Palestine will be even smaller...

Now here’s a bit of nostalgia. I first came to Washington thirty years ago as a young diplomat. It took me a while, but I finally figured it out: There is an America beyond the Beltway. But Israel on the 1967 lines would be only nine miles wide. So much for strategic depth.

That is more than Palestine will have....

So it is therefore absolutely vital for Israel’s security that a Palestinian state be fully demilitarized.

Wait what- a peace that can't be defended isn't peace.... So if the Palestinians can't defend a piece or this or a piece of that they lose it....

[quotrAnd it is vital that Israel maintain a long-term military presence along the Jordan River. Solid security arrangements on the ground are necessary not only to protect the peace, they are necessary to protect Israel in case the peace unravels. For in our unstable region, no one can guarantee that our peace partners today will be there tomorrow.[/quote]

Yes because the Jordanian Army is such a threat.... 85,000 men with 1000 tanks vs the IDF....

And when I say tomorrow, I don’t mean some distant time in the future. I mean — tomorrow. Peace can be achieved only around the negotiating table. The Palestinian attempt to impose a settlement through the United Nations will not bring peace. It should be forcefully opposed by all those who want to see this conflict end.

so peace but will not arrive at some distant future but when tomorrow gets here... In 38 years I've never seen tomorrow, only today....

I appreciate the President’s clear position on this issue. Peace cannot be imposed. It must be negotiated. But it can only be negotiated with partners committed to peace.

We know, we've seen Israel kill enough people to know exactly how committed she is.

And Hamas is not a partner for peace. Hamas remains committed to Israel’s destruction and to terrorism. They have a charter. That charter not only calls for the obliteration of Israel, but says ‘kill the Jews wherever you find them’. Hamas’ leader condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden and praised him as a holy warrior. Now again I want to make this clear. Israel is prepared to sit down today and negotiate peace with the Palestinian Authority. I believe we can fashion a brilliant future of peace for our children. But Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government backed by the Palestinian version of Al Qaeda.

Why not, your asking them to deal with the Jewish version of the Nuremburg Laws.

So I say to President Abbas: Tear up your pact with Hamas! Sit down and negotiate! Make peace with the Jewish state! And if you do, I promise you this. Israel will not be the last country to welcome a Palestinian state as a new member of the United Nations. It will be the first to do so.

Mr Bibi tear down these settlements...

My friends, the momentous trials of the last century, and the unfolding events of this century, attest to the decisive role of the United States in advancing peace and defending freedom. Providence entrusted the United States to be the guardian of liberty. All peoples who cherish freedom owe a profound debt of gratitude to your great nation. Among the most grateful nations is my nation, the people of Israel, who have fought for their liberty and survival against impossible odds, in ancient and modern times alike.

Yup you achieved liberty and imposed tyranny.... good job.

I speak on behalf of the Jewish people and the Jewish state when I say to you, representatives of America, Thank you. Thank you for your unwavering support for Israel. Thank you for ensuring that the flame of freedom burns bright throughout the world. May God bless all of you. And may God forever bless the United States of America.

If we don't stop backing your nation's evil policies he wont bless us.

Fifteen years ago, I stood at this very podium, and said that democracy must start to take root in the Arab World. Well, it’s begun to take root. This beginning holds the promise of a brilliant future of peace and prosperity. For I believe that a Middle East that is genuinely democratic will be a Middle East truly at peace.

But while we hope and work for the best, we must also recognize that powerful forces oppose this future. They oppose modernity. They oppose democracy. They oppose peace.

Foremost among these forces is Iran.

Funny, I seem to recall a certain Israeli PM lobbying hard to keep the people of Egypt from their 'brilliant future'. Any chance he will get called on this? OK, silly question, people are too busy demonizing Obama for re-stating the position of the last 2 Presidents.

Well, it took me almost an hour and a half to properly go through this entire thing, but thankfully I have some incredibly boring classes. Let's rock:

================================================== ==

Look in the mirror and you wouldn't see one.

Right. The Prime Minister of Israel is not a friend of Israel

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Yeah, those dastardly Israelis spending all their time trying to come up with new ways to kill American soldiers in the streets of Tel Aviv

Wait what, half the people Israel controls have no vote

Let them recognize Israel first, then we'll discuss giving them the right to vote.

By advancing peace he apparently means pushing the date peace will be achieved even further into the future.

That's right. You're onto him!

Well Israeli stability is built on oppression... Domestically the Israeli government panders to the right and drops bombs on any Palestinians who resist the theft of their future. Not much different than what Arab Sunnis do to the Shia minorities.

That's right. Palestinians that shoot ATGM's at school buses are resisting the threat of their future.

Great, good to know, now please stop building

Would you like us to stop having children too? Building today is mainly natural growth.

Ya for Jews, for Palestinians is on the embargo list like Chocolate and plastic sheeting.

They've got democracy in Gaza. If they want to change things, just vote Hamas out. Oh wait, they can't, they're scared for their lives in "democratic Gaza"

American lives have been pledged to Israel's defense since 1979

Really? Since when do Israel and the US have a mutual defense treaty? How many US servicemen have died keeping Israel free?

How is bombing apartment blocks in Tyre, or dropping willie pete rounds in enclosed courtyards in Gaza defense?

In response to indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilian territories? Fight fire with fire, seems to be the only way they learn. We've tried playing nice and turning the other cheek, we all saw how well that worked out

Thank AIPAC.

I'm sure he does. what's your point?

Its an investment that is wise if you hold stock in defense contractors. For all others Israel has brought the US little positive: fuel embargo, terror attacks, help cost us an even more important ally....

What terror attacks has Israel brought upon the US? 9/11 and Al-Qaeda's reason d'etre was over US presence in Saudi, IIRC.

Which even more important ally has Israel cost the US?

Palestinians have been saying that for some time.

That's right, because the country that treats them better than anywhere else in the world, even better than their own elected leaders in Gaza are the tyrants.

Then take heed

We have, trust me. Apparently things here aren't quite that bad if they revolted in Tunis, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain and Syria, but the only thing here happened on the Nakba? Even the call to return to the borders a week later was met with resonating silence. Yeah, things must suck here.

And if the are Palestinians we shoot them for it.

Yup. That's the one. Especially all of those that protested peacefully, or rained stones and Molotov's on our soldiers and were met with rubber bullets, gas grenades and flash-bangs. The only ones shot at on the Nakba were those tearing down and crossing an international border of a country we're at war with. Usually you shoot to kill, not at the knees to wound.

Remember how 10 days ago there was a truck driver then went on a 2km rampage in Tel Aviv? Yeah, we shot his ass so hard. Oh, wait, my mistake, he's in jail.

Well, why has Lebanon been long suffering? Could it have something to do with the massive influx of refugees pushed in, followed a dew decades later by the IDF, who then picked sides in a civil war?

Pushed in? Left voluntarily. And Israel are not the ones that keep them in refugee camps in Lebanon and deny them even the most basic rights. Yes, that's right, those poor oppressed Palestinians have more rights here than in any other country in the world.

Well we know no one knows it less than you, liberty for Palestinians is a road not traveled.

Yup, that's it. Speaking of roads traveled, you ever hear of Route 443? That's right, proper road in Israel opened to Palestinians.

The let the Palestinians demonstrate...

We do. I've got the scars from stones and glass bottles.

can we limit yours?

Sure. Go ahead.

Can we make settlers beholden to judges?

You mean more than they already are?

who needs mobs and tribes to crush things when you have 70 ton Merkavas to do it....

You've got it. We drive our Merkavas around Ramallah, Nablus, Beth Lehem and Jericho just for the hell of it. The bitch is cleaning out all the blood and guts from the wheel carriage and tracks afterwards. Bonus points if you can find an intact head or limb.

If you mean the path of brutality.... finally some honesty.

No, the path of liberty. It was in the previous sentence. Should I quote it for you?

"Like all of you, I pray that the peoples of the region choose the path less travelled, the path of liberty."

Ya because in Israel its Jews not Moslems doing the dirty deeds. other than religious creed there is little functional difference.

We have women stonings on Mondays, gay hangings on Wednesdays and Christians are persecuted on Thursday nights. It's an awesome pastime.

But only half the people have the vote....

Why should they get the right to vote in a country they refuse to recognize and don't want to be citizens of? I want the right to vote in Iran. Whoop-de-freakin'-doo!

But only 1 of 4 Arabs in Israel is a citizen..... makes you go hrmmmm

They don't want to be citizens. Hmmmm

Ya right in the middle of most of the areas problems.

That's right. We're responsible for Mubarak and Assad. Our influence spreads so far that we're also responsible for Tunis and Yemen.

I can smell the stinking brown stuff from that statement all the way in Arkansas.

I think you need to check the bottom of your shoes, or maybe change your son's diaper.

Wow, you only managed to delay democracy by 15 years- your getting slow bibi.

Yup. Netanyahu was Prime Minister for 15 years, including when those fake Prime Ministers Barak and Olmert offered the Palestinians over 90% of what they wanted. That same Netanyahu that didn't oppose the 2005 Gaza withdrawal.

And yet you let them build settlements and send in the IDF to protect them......

Really?

The Tyranny in Israel brutalizes the Palestinians. Its safer to demonstrate in Tehran than in the West Bank.

That's right. we don't even bother with secret police and plainclothes cops. We just mow 'em down openly. If they run, they're a terrorist, if they stand still, they're a well disciplined terrorist. GET SOME!!!

They attack us, you spy in us....

Holding on to things that happened 25 years ago. You belong here in the Middle East, you're great at holding grudges!

Wait- who sent in the troops to Lebanon and Gaza, it wasn't Iran.

In response to indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilian centers and cities. Where did the rockets come from? Yup, you guessed it. Iran!

True, Israel doesn't sponsor, she sends the Mossad to do it.

Exactly. It's a shame our last pipe bomb in Baghdad never went off. It was gonna be a doozy!

Ever wonder why so many Moslems want an Islama-bomb? Secret Decoder Ring spells D.I.M.O.N.A.....

Or for their openly stated reason of wiping Israel out. Why go for the obvious reason when you can dig deep and come up with shit?

Wait what- it was Israeli politicians that said a WWIII global thermonuclear war was a fitting outcome if Israel fell to the Arabs....

For some diehards it is. One idiot does not reflect on an entire nation.

Same goes for militant Judaism.

Just last week my and my friends had an Arab hanging in God's name.

Are you really going to try and compare people that build houses for natural growth to people that blow themselves up in Allah's name all over the world? When was the last time a Jewish suicide bomber blew himself up or shot up something? Baruch Goldstein did it in the early 90's.

Iran can not ignite the race, Israel already did... Where are those Israeli warheads.... perhaps in a container ship, or in a suitcase?

Well, as far as I know, they don't exist. Can you prove they exist?

Apparently it can since your doing it....

Yup. Nothing beats beats crying "fire!" except perhaps for crying "wolf!". Hmmm, "Wolf on fire!", maybe?

while Iran calls, Israel perfects annihlation.....

Yup, our Einsatzgruppen and concentration camps are running full steam. If it took Hitler 6 years to kill six million Jews, we must really suck at it if we can't kill 4 million Palestinians in 63 years.

You spew such Venom, can you buy one of those Russian rockets and take off?

?????

Be glad America isn't true to her ideals or Israel would be fokked.

Sure, I'll bet.

Dude, I don't even know what the hell you're talking about here....

What if we send an unequivocal message about illegal settlements?

Go ahead.

No, you mean never again unless its the Jews doing it.

That's right, except like I showed before, we really suck at killing Palestinians. Maybe it has something to do with all of them coming to learn and work in Israel, seek healthcare and get emergency operations performed on them here. We should really stop doing all that if we actually wanna kill them all off.

Great will you start exercising it instead of causing conflicts?

Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories. I wonder how many times I can repeat myself until you get it. Thank god for Ctrl C and Ctrl V, eh?

Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.

I can keep going, if you like...

We know- a piece here, a piece there and pretty soon your talking most of the West bank and all of east Jerusalem.

Oh, a pun! That's funny! I like it!

If you want real peace stop making war....

Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.

Israelis have no idea what suffering is, if they did they would not inflict so much pain on the Palestinians.

Yup, we enjoy having our children not even able to go to the playground without there being a bomb shelter within 15 seconds running time. We enjoy that feeling every time we got on a bus that it might be our last time. We enjoy going to cafe's knowing our latte could come with some gunpowder, explosives, rusty nails, ball bearings and broken glass.

Another lie, I can name several right wing groups in Israel who do want war.

Netanyahu chooses not to mention fringe groups since they are not relevant. But I hear that nitpicking and cherry picking your arguments to go for the real stupid ones is great exercise.

Ya, but you forget that states need land... with 50/50 population you want to divide the land 90/10....

They were made a better offer. Twice. If they don't like those terms, they'll have to deal with the new negotiation on the table. Do-overs aren't applicable here.

Painful to whom...

To both sides. That's what a compromise is all about.

No one is asking Israel to give up the Jewish homeland, just the illegally occupied areas of Palestine.

Jerusalem is not an illegally occupied area of Palestine. It was captured from Jordan in the Six-Day War, when Jordan chose to attack Israel. Israel called on Jordan to stay out of it, Jordan took it's chances and lost.

Funny thing is genetics also establish a 4000 year Palestinian link to the area....

Who are the Palestinians descended from? The Romans, Greeks, Canaanites, Girgashites, Jebusites, Hittities, Amalekites, which ones?

Yes they do, why wont you let them?

We do. There's only so many times we can bend over and drop trou before we get tired of taking it up the ass

Proof your road blocks are the reason their economy tanked in the first place

I'm sure they were put up for the hell of it. People like you are the reason peace is so hard to come by. Instead of looking forward and being happy with the 10% annual growth, you choose to focus on the past and the roadblocks, though you will deny the reason of why the roadblocks were there in the first place.

Which is why you oppose it

Once again, you're onto him! We enjoy spending billions of US and Israeli dollars a year on defense. Who really cares about education, infrastructure and healthcare, anyway?

hrmm typo maybe? maybe he meant- the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Palestinian state, if it meant accepting a Jewish state inside of it.

Doesn't change the fact that no matter how you choose to spin it, you admit that the Palestinians still don't want to establish their own state. As a liberal, you should know how much easier it is to play the victim than take responsibility for your own actions.

Ya you offered to only keep 10% of what is not yours.... In business its called extortion.

Which is a hell of a lot more they're gotten from anyone else, and shit tons more than Israel would have gotten were the situation reversed. Remember, they're the ones who turned down the two state solution in the first place.

one day flooded with vs the every day flooded with Jewish settlers....

Yup. We're cloning people too, just so we can win the birth race.

I am sure he would if that didn't mean giving in to Israeli theft of the best parts of the West bank and all of East Jerusalem.

He doesn't mean that. Netanyahu has said time and again that we will uproot settlements for peace. We already have uprooted settlements for peace.

East Jerusalem is not an illegally occupied area of Palestine. It was captured from Jordan in the Six-Day War, when Jordan chose to attack Israel. Israel called on Jordan to stay out of it, Jordan took it's chances and lost.

The pace of settlement building says your lying.

Natural Growth. Why should we work on our end if the Palestinians won't work on their end?

theft is theft no matter how you cut it.

Theft, or legally gained land in armed conflict?

If the border of June 4, 1967 could not be defended how did Israel win?

Because we preemptively struck Egypt after Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran. Jordan and Syria were attacked after they decided to join the war.

Aside from that, technological advances have made it much harder to defend the borders, and you know it.

That is right the problem will be decided outside of Israel, eventually the entire world with tire of your brutality.

What is wrong with you? Instead of looking at the perfectly relevant solution to a problem, you immediately go looking for more fights. For all your clamor about peace, you're full of shit sometimes.

And the ottomans and British...

Nope. Jews weren't allowed free worship by the Western Wall under either of them. They were allowed occasional access, which is far from freedom of religion

creativity and goodwill.... code words for go suck an egg?

Or actually finding a solution. You really are a hatemonger, aren't you?

so if you can't defend it, its not peace? Gotcha!

Makes sense, if you ask me. A true peace should have no need to be defended, but there's no reason to be stupid, is there? Throwing away your gun in a gunfight is an invitation to be shot in the ass. You may not need to use your gun, but it's a good thing to hold on to just in case of an emergency

You make the Palestinians live that way....

No we don't. We occasionally attack militant targets with no warning, we don't systematically launch rockets indiscriminately at civilian territories.

Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.Rockets being fired indiscriminately at civilian territories.

And Palestine will be even smaller...

Hmmm... Less people and they get less land. Shocking, isn't it?!

That is more than Palestine will have....

Except we won't be attacking them all out trying to "push them to the sea", will we? We've promised time and again not to attack if the Palestinians won't. We retaliate.

Wait what- a peace that can't be defended isn't peace.... So if the Palestinians can't defend a piece or this or a piece of that they lose it....

We won't attack. Can you promise that the Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese all clamoring for Israel's destruction won't either?

Yes because the Jordanian Army is such a threat.... 85,000 men with 1000 tanks vs the IDF....

We learned in Lebanon the hard way, all you really need is 2 or 3 people with ATGM's.

so peace but will not arrive at some distant future but when tomorrow gets here... In 38 years I've never seen tomorrow, only today....

We've offered to bring tomorrow at least twice, and even unilaterally brought evening all on our own in 2005. The Palestinians seem content to live in today.

We know, we've seen Israel kill enough people to know exactly how committed she is.

Yup. My and my buddies' favorite pastime is taking our guns and randomly shooting innocent civilians and launching rockets and planting bombs indiscriminately at and in civilian territories.

Why not, your asking them to deal with the Jewish version of the Nuremburg Laws.

Yup. You're onto us. Hitler and Netanyahu were cousins.

Mr Bibi tear down these settlements...

We will. We have before and we'll do it again. But we learned our lesson, it will come as part of the peace agreement, not as a perquisite for an agreement. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me

Yup you achieved liberty and imposed tyranny.... good job.

That's right, because we're the ones that don't allow people to sing at weddings. We're a bunch of tyrannical bastards!

If we don't stop backing your nation's evil policies he wont bless us.

I don't really believe in the same God you believe in, so I won't argue with you on theology. I do however believe that if there were someone who were going to talk in His name, it's not you. You're too much of a hatemonger and refuse to forgive. You might compare favorably to some Popes of the past, but that's not really saying much, is it?

================================================== ==

For whoever is wondering, a large part of my responses were heavily sarcastic, used as a tool to prove to Zraver how incredibly stupid some of his arguments were. I have nothing against Zraver, we just don't get along. Zraver has some personality traits that I've discovered while reading his post and writing my rebuttal, but I've got a couple bad ones too.

You might recall that a while back I admitted to being racist against Palestinians. I was then told by some members here that I'm not a racist, just prejudiced, but you can look at it either way you want. If you'll look at the difference between my posts and Zraver's, I at least show a willingness to listen, forgive, live and coexist peacefully. I doubt you'll get anything like that from Zraver.

That being said, he doesn't live here, so it's easy for him to talk in the abstract. He doesn't have to worry about losing his and his newborn child's life because he feels like riding the bus.

In closing: If you read this post and actually believe some of those obviously sarcastic comments and get offended, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Originally Posted by S2

The cost is permanent disdain by a feckless international community whose agendas aren't served by Israel but, instead, wish assuring the flow of oil to their economies.

And Sir,I dare say an international community that didn't actually care too much about the Israelis or the Palestinians,but had to pay lip service to the regimes that payed lip service to the Palestinian cause.
The fact that there are enough hot heads and bleeding hearts(and quite a few stupid heads)that actually care for something that's not theirs doesn't change too much the picture.

BR, i like good sarcasm, too:

Well Israeli stability is built on oppression... Domestically the Israeli government panders to the right and drops bombs on any Palestinians who resist the theft of their future. Not much different than what Arab Sunnis do to the Shia minorities.

That's right. Palestinians that shoot ATGM's at school buses are resisting the threat of their future.

You keep repeating this one incident (which is awful that happened btw) over and over again. (That copy/paste feature is really appealing isn't it?). Then later you go to Z telling him he is looking back in the past?

But only half the people have the vote....

Why should they get the right to vote in a country they refuse to recognize and don't want to be citizens of? I want the right to vote in Iran. Whoop-de-freakin'-doo!

Have you tried to vote in Iran? Would you understand the ballots?
I don't like to vote in my own country, now what? I am not a Macedonian?

And yet you let them build settlements and send in the IDF to protect them......

Really?

It's not like that?
There must be something wrong with my TV, I must buy a new one made in Israel.

Well, why has Lebanon been long suffering? Could it have something to do with the massive influx of refugees pushed in, followed a dew decades later by the IDF, who then picked sides in a civil war?

Pushed in? Left voluntarily. And Israel are not the ones that keep them in refugee camps in Lebanon and deny them even the most basic rights. Yes, that's right, those poor oppressed Palestinians have more rights here than in any other country in the world.

So your relatives left Germany voluntarily?

No, you mean never again unless its the Jews doing it

That's right, except like I showed before, we really suck at killing Palestinians. Maybe it has something to do with all of them coming to learn and work in Israel, seek healthcare and get emergency operations performed on them here. We should really stop doing all that if we actually wanna kill them all off.

Well you are just not efficient as the Germans

We know, we've seen Israel kill enough people to know exactly how committed she is.

Yup. My and my buddies' favorite pastime is taking our guns and randomly shooting innocent civilians and launching rockets and planting bombs indiscriminately at and in civilian territories.

Actually, it would be like sending IAF, then armor, then bulldozers. Аfterwards you say terrorists were hiding in the house and claim victory.

Why not, your asking them to deal with the Jewish version of the Nuremburg Laws.

Yup. You're onto us. Hitler and Netanyahu were cousins.

There were rumors some Jew raped Hitlers mom, what would you know.

theft is theft no matter how you cut it.

Theft, or legally gained land in armed conflict?

I don't see Germany, Italy or Japan into USA, UK or Russia.

one day flooded with vs the every day flooded with Jewish settlers....

Yup. We're cloning people too, just so we can win the birth race.

What about those Russian Jews (~2 mil?!)? Ooops...

The let the Palestinians demonstrate...

We do. I've got the scars from stones and glass bottles.

You are army, not the police right? I don't recall any other state being recognized as a democratic sending army to demonstrators.
If you were a police officer, I'd send you a footage from demonstrations in Greece. Oh right, those demonstrators are Macedonians

so if you can't defend it, its not peace? Gotcha!

Makes sense, if you ask me. A true peace should have no need to be defended, but there's no reason to be stupid, is there? Throwing away your gun in a gunfight is an invitation to be shot in the ass. You may not need to use your gun, but it's a good thing to hold on to just in case of an emergency

It's not your gun. It's a US gun! Then you wonder why US citizens feel threatened for helping you.

Now, may I ask you a question? Actually two:
1. How many people in Israel die as a result of car accidents? What's that number compared to casualties "terror"?

Last time I checked 4 times more people died from traffic fatalities then from terror, yet I don't see IDF stopping the traffic. I am not being cocky, just pointing facts.

2. I came to a source stating 6 times more Palestinians died then Israelies. Looks accurate to me. What do you think of the figures?

Well, that's two people now who I've read make a direct comparison between Ah Shoah and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


****ing absurd, I've coined a new term, Israeli Derangement Syndrome. At Bens insistence I'm keeping the thread open for now.

Originally Posted by Doktor

BR, i like good sarcasm, too:

Awesome!

You keep repeating this one incident (which is awful that happened btw) over and over again. (That copy/paste feature is really appealing isn't it?). Then later you go to Z telling him he is looking back in the past?

One is something that happened 2 months ago showing malice intent on behalf of armed militants willing to harm innocent civilians for no decent reason. The other is something that happened over 40 years ago and for every legal reason in the book. Quite the difference if you ask me

Have you tried to vote in Iran? Would you understand the ballots?
I don't like to vote in my own country, now what? I am not a Macedonian?

Have Palestinians tried to vote in Israel? Just because one wants something does not mean they will get it. It's kind of a logical fallacy for them to refuse to recognize Israel and call for it's destruction, and yet have Palestinian sympathizers claim that Palestinians not being able to vote is Israel's fault. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

It's not like that?
There must be something wrong with my TV, I must buy a new one made in Israel.

Yes, today most of the building is natural growth. New settlements are not being founded, to my knowledge. You can't ask people to stop giving birth, can you?

Netanyahu has agreed to dismantle settlements as part of the peace process, like we've done before. However, prior experience shows us that dismantling settlements before negotiations start is an exercise in futility. Dismantling must come as the result of negotiations, not as a requisite.

So your relatives left Germany voluntarily?

Some of them did. My great-grandma and grandma left Poland for Russia. My other grandfather decided to stay in Hungary and almost paid for that mistake with his life. My great-grandma never did try to get her house in Poland back.

Short history lesson: In 1948 the Arab High Commission told the Arabs living in Israel after the Declaration of Independence to leave in order to make it easier for their armies to "push the Jews into the sea". When Israel survived she invited those that left to come back, and yet they didn't. In legal terms, they abandoned that property and all rights to that property. But we'll move aside from that and instead turn towards a different question: Who is a Palestinian refugee?

Palestinian refugees are not an Israel issue. There are Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and other countries across the world. This is due to the fact that the definition of a Palestinian, according to the U.N. differs to the definition of any other refugee in the world. UNRWA's definition of a Palestinian refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948. In contrast, the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees defines a refugee as: "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it". Why are Palestinians provided a different status and what makes an American born Arab more Palestinian than an Israeli born Jew? Surely the descendants of Jews living in Israel in 1948 are Palestinians too?

Palestinians are the only refugees in the world where the status of refugee is passed down from generation to generation, but that leads us into yet another area, that of a documented UN bias against Israel, but we'll leave that for a different post, if that's all right with you

Well you are just not efficient as the Germans

Either that, or our missions are world's apart and nothing like each other

Actually, it would be like sending IAF, then armor, then bulldozers. Аfterwards you say terrorists were hiding in the house and claim victory.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. When we arrest someone, we want them alive. We don't send in tanks, IAF or bulldozers. Dead men tell no tales.

When we want to kill a terrorist we do it with the main goal of a minimum of civilian casualties. To that end neighbors are told to leave the area (giving the terrorist warning), and usually only infantry go in, with tanks for cover in an emergency.

Bulldozers are usually used to tear down houses of people that have been convicted of terrorism or have committed acts of terrorism and died in the process.

The former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, Col. Richard Kemp, was quoted in front of the UN Human Rights Council saying “ the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”

There were rumors some Jew raped Hitlers mom, what would you know.

Without facts, that's nothing but an old wives tale. Either that, or his mother's doctor was Jewish and recommended aborting lil' Adolf, or his grandfather was ripped off and embezzled by a Jew. The rumors go on and on.

I don't see Germany, Italy or Japan into USA, UK or Russia.

Funny, I seem to remember a whole buttload of Germans throughout Europe, and then a whole bunch of Americans, British, French and Soviets. Berlin was occupied for how many years?

What about those Russian Jews (~2 mil?!)? Ooops...

What about them? They emigrated legally when the Soviet Union collapsed. Some went to the US, some stayed in Russia, a lot of them came here.

They aren't, however, being herded into settlements just to hold onto land.

You are army, not the police right? I don't recall any other state being recognized as a democratic sending army to demonstrators.
If you were a police officer, I'd send you a footage from demonstrations in Greece. Oh right, those demonstrators are Macedonians

Rochester, 1964. New York National Guard
Watts Riots, 1965. California National Guard
Kent State University, 1967. Ohio National Guard.
Los Angeles, 1992. California National Guard

It's not your gun. It's a US gun! Then you wonder why US citizens feel threatened for helping you.

Seriously? The US is one of the largest arms dealers in the world. Do US citizens feel threatened because they are scared the North Koreans are gonna come after them since the South Koreans use American weapons? Are they scared of Egyptians? After all, the Egyptian Army also uses American weaponry, and they did cut down a protestor or two a couple months ago.

Now, may I ask you a question? Actually two:
1. How many people in Israel die as a result of car accidents? What's that number compared to casualties "terror"?

Last time I checked 4 times more people died from traffic fatalities then from terror, yet I don't see IDF stopping the traffic. I am not being cocky, just pointing facts.

That's because it's not our job. The police do that.

2. I came to a source stating 6 times more Palestinians died then Israelies. Looks accurate to me. What do you think of the figures?

They make perfect sense. When you put insurgents and untrained militants up against a trained and properly equipped army, you'd expect the militants and terrorists to have more casualties. David and Goliath is a nice story, but that's about it.

================================================== ========================

On a side note, let's actually try and keep this one civil. As touchy as this subject is, there's no reason why we can't be gentlemen about it. The main point here is to discuss the topic and debate

Originally Posted by bigross86

Awesome!

I wont be that sarcastic this time

One is something that happened 2 months ago showing malice intent on behalf of armed militants willing to harm innocent civilians for no decent reason. The other is something that happened over 40 years ago and for every legal reason in the book. Quite the difference if you ask me

If you are looking into future bringing past to the table doesn't help. That was my point.

Have Palestinians tried to vote in Israel? Just because one wants something does not mean they will get it. It's kind of a logical fallacy for them to refuse to recognize Israel and call for it's destruction, and yet have Palestinian sympathizers claim that Palestinians not being able to vote is Israel's fault. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you read my other post on the matter you will see we agree here. Was just having cynical brain fart :(

Yes, today most of the building is natural growth. New settlements are not being founded, to my knowledge. You can't ask people to stop giving birth, can you?

I can't, but Chinese can. Not implying you should.

Netanyahu has agreed to dismantle settlements as part of the peace process, like we've done before. However, prior experience shows us that dismantling settlements before negotiations start is an exercise in futility. Dismantling must come as the result of negotiations, not as a requisite.

Why bother building them just to dismantle them few months later? Ah for a better positions during negotiations?

Some of them did. My great-grandma and grandma left Poland for Russia. My other grandfather decided to stay in Hungary and almost paid for that mistake with his life. My great-grandma never did try to get her house in Poland back.

I was not referring to your relatives alone, but your as the Jews. Really why they felt the urge to immigrate? They felt threatened, right? Can't be the same reason why Palestinians flee? Oh I forgot, someone ordered them just to have a clean terrain and they obeyed. Why you received them back. Elsewhere they would be treated as traitors.

Short history lesson: In 1948 the Arab High Commission told the Arabs living in Israel after the Declaration of Independence to leave in order to make it easier for their armies to "push the Jews into the sea". When Israel survived she invited those that left to come back, and yet they didn't. In legal terms, they abandoned that property and all rights to that property. But we'll move aside from that and instead turn towards a different question: Who is a Palestinian refugee

A right of property is mine, no matter if I reside on it or not. That's of course if I don't sell it in the meantime.

Palestinian refugees are not an Israel issue. There are Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and other countries across the world. This is due to the fact that the definition of a Palestinian, according to the U.N. differs to the definition of any other refugee in the world. UNRWA's definition of a Palestinian refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948. In contrast, the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees defines a refugee as: "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it". Why are Palestinians provided a different status and what makes an American born Arab more Palestinian than an Israeli born Jew? Surely the descendants of Jews living in Israel in 1948 are Palestinians too?

Palestinians are the only refugees in the world where the status of refugee is passed down from generation to generation, but that leads us into yet another area, that of a documented UN bias against Israel, but we'll leave that for a different post, if that's all right with you

Correct formulation would be "Palestinian refugees are not an Israel issue alone".

There must be something why it was politically correct to go for such a formulation on this matter only.

We will continue this on the other thread, to which you never replied

Either that, or our missions are world's apart and nothing like each other

I was only being sarcastic. I agree it is two different things.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. When we arrest someone, we want them alive. We don't send in tanks, IAF or bulldozers. Dead men tell no tales.

When we want to kill a terrorist we do it with the main goal of a minimum of civilian casualties. To that end neighbors are told to leave the area (giving the terrorist warning), and usually only infantry go in, with tanks for cover in an emergency.

Bulldozers are usually used to tear down houses of people that have been convicted of terrorism or have committed acts of terrorism and died in the process.

The former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, Col. Richard Kemp, was quoted in front of the UN Human Rights Council saying “ the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”

When I first saw the bulldozers I was discussed. What happened to the right of property? His/her kids are left with what? Then you say they left because they choose to. I don't see serial killers's houses destroyed after they are convinced. BTW is there a fair trial? Ah, they refused the arrest.

Without facts, that's nothing but an old wives tale. Either that, or his mother's doctor was Jewish and recommended aborting lil' Adolf, or his grandfather was ripped off and embezzled by a Jew. The rumors go on and on.

As I said it is a rumor, and it is often cited as a reason why he hated Jews so much. Which I disagree.

Funny, I seem to remember a whole buttload of Germans throughout Europe, and then a whole bunch of Americans, British, French and Soviets. Berlin was occupied for how many years?

Erm, do the math again and tell me for how many years? Then compare it to your occupation. Also, I don't recall watching the Americans destruct houses in Berlin. Maybe the Soviets did something like that, but they are not a role-model. Or are they?

What about them? They emigrated legally when the Soviet Union collapsed. Some went to the US, some stayed in Russia, a lot of them came here.
They aren't, however, being herded into settlements just to hold onto land.

Well the point is that's not birth growth as you have stated before. They were what in % of the existing Israelis? 50%? Of course now you don't have land where to settle the newborns. Ah wait, you do, but you see it more practical to settle where you know you can't. Why else would you agree to dismantle the settlements?

Rochester, 1964. New York National Guard
Watts Riots, 1965. California National Guard
Kent State University, 1967. Ohio National Guard.
Los Angeles, 1992. California National Guard

No US army or USMC.

Seriously? The US is one of the largest arms dealers in the world. Do US citizens feel threatened because they are scared the North Koreans are gonna come after them since the South Koreans use American weapons? Are they scared of Egyptians? After all, the Egyptian Army also uses American weaponry, and they did cut down a protestor or two a couple months ago.

Yet those arms come in serious amounts as freebies to your neck of the woods unlike elsewhere.

That's because it's not our job. The police do that.

Convenient. You have the police for the Jews and the army for the others?

They make perfect sense. When you put insurgents and untrained militants up against a trained and properly equipped army, you'd expect the militants and terrorists to have more casualties. David and Goliath is a nice story, but that's about it.

Check IV Geneva Convention.

================================================== ========================

On a side note, let's actually try and keep this one civil. As touchy as this subject is, there's no reason why we can't be gentlemen about it. The main point here is to discuss the topic and debate

Agree.

Originally Posted by Doktor

I wont be that sarcastic this time

If you are looking into future bringing past to the table doesn't help. That was my point.

But one can't forget the past, either. I submit that something illegal and fundamentally wrong that happened 2 months ago, used as an example of a recurring trend is more relevant than a perfectly legal action done over 40 years ago.

If you read my other post on the matter you will see we agree here. Was just having cynical brain fart :(

No worries

I can't, but Chinese can. Not implying you should.

We shouldn't, and we won't.

Why bother building them just to dismantle them few months later? Ah for a better positions during negotiations?

We don't build new ones. We expand existing ones because people need room for their families. We don't want to create ghettos.

I was not referring to your relatives alone, but your as the Jews. Really why they felt the urge to immigrate? They felt threatened, right? Can't be the same reason why Palestinians flee? Oh I forgot, someone ordered them just to have a clean terrain and they obeyed. Why you received them back. Elsewhere they would be treated as traitors.

Except for the documented proof that they were told to leave.

A right of property is mine, no matter if I reside on it or not. That's of course if I don't sell it in the meantime.

According to the law in almost every country, the land belongs to the country, not the person. People do not "own" land but only enjoy estates in the land.

Correct formulation would be "Palestinian refugees are not an Israel issue alone".

There must be something why it was politically correct to go for such a formulation on this matter only.

We will continue this on the other thread, to which you never replied

I can't think of any reason why the one refugee is any different from the other, except for the fact that they are not actual refugees.

I was only being sarcastic. I agree it is two different things.


When I first saw the bulldozers I was discussed. What happened to the right of property? His/her kids are left with what? Then you say they left because they choose to. I don't see serial killers's houses destroyed after they are convinced. BTW is there a fair trial? Ah, they refused the arrest.

Israeli soldiers don't kill indiscriminately. Of course there is a fair trial, if the accused is still alive. If the accused is a suicide bomber with a videotape of him admitting to the fact beforehand, that makes the trial fairly cut and clear, no?

Serial killers are dealt with differently. IDF Vs Police

As I said it is a rumor, and it is often cited as a reason why he hated Jews so much. Which I disagree.

That's good.

Erm, do the math again and tell me for how many years? Then compare it to your occupation. Also, I don't recall watching the Americans destruct houses in Berlin. Maybe the Soviets did something like that, but they are not a role-model. Or are they?

Time is irrelevant. The principle and legality of the matter is what stands.

Well the point is that's not birth growth as you have stated before. They were what in % of the existing Israelis? 50%? Of course now you don't have land where to settle the newborns. Ah wait, you do, but you see it more practical to settle where you know you can't. Why else would you agree to dismantle the settlements?

I'm still not getting your point. In 1991 Israeli population grew by 5%. That is a lot, but we weren't that many to begin with. It doesn't help your argument to keep raising the issue of settlements, since the issue has already been resolved: Israel is not building more settlements, just expanding existing ones, and we will tear down settlements in exchange for peace, but not as a requisite. There really is not much more to it. We tried tearing down settlements as an incentive for peace and got fcuked. Not gonna happen again.

No US army or USMC.

Washington D.C., 1919. 12,000 troops under Army General Haan.

More recently:

Detroit, 1967. 10,253 National Guard and 4, 700 Army
Los Angeles, 1992. 2,800 National Guard with another 3,200 standby, and 4,000 USMC and Army.

Check out this table, shows you breakdown of troops used in the US, National Guard or Federal troops.

Yet those arms come in serious amounts as freebies to your neck of the woods unlike elsewhere.

That was the carrot that came with the stick of abandoning Sinai for peace with Egypt. Egypt gets exactly 50% of what Israel does, yearly. Are US citizens afraid of Egyptians?

I personally have advocated time and again for weaning ourselves off the American support.

Convenient. You have the police for the Jews and the army for the others?

No, we have police for Israelis and Palestinian police for Palestinians. An IDF soldier won't pull over a Palestinian taxi with no headlights or taillights carrying 8 people. We will pull aside a taxi that is holding a suspect. We will detain the suspect and the rest of the people can go their way.

Like I said before, different professionals for different jobs.

Check IV Geneva Convention.

What about it? It's kinda large, you're gonna need to be specific.

================================================== ========================

Agree.

Glad that's settled