Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

**Officer of Engineers** · 15 Jun 10,, 18:15

Originally Posted by rj1

With due respect to you and to kind of stand up for benross here, the entire world has become pretty good at ignoring genocide over the past few decades. The problem is they think charging a guy in a trial 15 years after the fact in The Hague doubles as "justice" when it doesn't do a damn thing for the people lying dead in the ground. Then you have people that scream about Darfur and want action but only want said action to be UN-sanctioned.

So Israel is just following the world's lead on that point.

I was UNPROFOR.

**rj1** · 15 Jun 10,, 18:52

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I was UNPROFOR.

Yes, I've read your story. You did your job well. But most of the rest of the world wanted nothing to deal with it and if that kind of conflict happened today (which it has in Sudan), I don't see the first-world risking anyone to stop genocide, which should be a noble goal if this was a world based on morals. The electorates don't want to and the politicians are reflecting their electorates.

**Officer of Engineers** · 15 Jun 10,, 19:24

The difference between UNAMIR/UNMIS and UNPROFOR was that UNPROFOR was proactive, rather than re-active. We didn't ask New York for a lot of permission and we had no qualms sitting in the middle of the road, daring the bad guys to cross us.

**rj1** · 15 Jun 10,, 19:45

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The difference between UNAMIR/UNMIS and UNPROFOR was that UNPROFOR was proactive, rather than re-active. We didn't ask New York for a lot of permission and we had no qualms sitting in the middle of the road, daring the bad guys to cross us.

Can't find the post right now, but I believe once in the past you described the Croats ambushing your UN unit to take over some territory, breaking the ceasefire and all that, and instead of the UN choosing to respond to this illegal manuever which killed soldiers on a UN assignment, the UN took the fait accompli, correct? Don't you think the UN did what was easy instead of what was right?

Now let's update that 20 years into the future to today. Are countries and international organizations (NATO, EU, UN, etc.) going to do what's right or what's easy?

**Officer of Engineers** · 15 Jun 10,, 20:00

Krajina and it wasn't my battle group, it was the 2 R22eR (VD) and it was perfectly timed and perfectly planned by the Croats with CIA help.

UNPROFOR could not respond mainly because we lacked the military strength to do so. Krajina was planned during the Christmas period when the Battle Group was reduced. In fact, 2 VanDoos only had a single company to stop the Croats and by the time the action was over, we have other problems to deal with, namely Srebrenecia.

However, during this time period, the decision was already made to drop the blue beret for green combat caps. NATO was going to take over from the UN and we were going from UNPROFOR to Operation DELIBERATE FORCE.

**Bigfella** · 15 Jun 10,, 22:18

Originally Posted by bigross86

I think it was an Israeli choice. Makes sense since he's both Irish and a staunch supporter of Israel. Covers lots of bases

BR,

VERY differnt Irish. Trimble is Ulster Unionist, so Marko is not far wrong in that respect - he doesn't have much more in common with the government of the Republic than Abbas has with the Govt of Israel.

**bigross86** · 15 Jun 10,, 22:23

I'm of the opinion that he shouldn't even be there. Since when do we need international observers on a domestic board of inquiry? The Kahan commission after the Sabra and Shatila massacres was all Israeli and laid blame where blame was due, namely Ariel Sharon's feet.

Since when is Israel not trusted enough to run a transparent commission into it's own affairs?

**Officer of Engineers** · 15 Jun 10,, 23:00

Originally Posted by rj1

Now let's update that 20 years into the future to today. Are countries and international organizations (NATO, EU, UN, etc.) going to do what's right or what's easy?

It's never about the organization. It's about the men on the ground and who is willing to do what to get things done. General Dallaire tried to do too much and got nothing but infamy. General MacKenzie concentrated his mission and saved Sarajevo. General Dallaire sought permission. General MacKenzie took responsibility. General Dallaire was refused permission from New York. General MacKenzie waited until the last second to inform New York and usually on a Friday afternoon at 16:59.

**Zinja** · 15 Jun 10,, 23:19

Originally Posted by StevoJH

I honestly don't see why Israel would be treated any differently to any other country, just because of something (although major) that happened 65-70 years ago. Thats three generations ago.

I find that a very strange remark. We house wild animals, rhinos, elephants, etc which are endangered in the wilderness, somehow we(the world) should look the other way with Israel, the only country with the kind of danger its facing.

**Zinja** · 15 Jun 10,, 23:29

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

You're missing the point here. The Palestinian issue affects you directly but Israel couldn't care less about others dying. Rwanda was but an example. Cambodia another. For a people who lectures others about being the victims of genocide, Israel becomes damned good at ignoring non-Jewish victims of genocide. I remind you that Jews were not the only victims of genocide during WWII.

No, the US has NOT given her word. You DON'T HAVE A DEFENCE TREATY. Anything else is p!ssing into the wind. The US is NOT obligated to come to your rescue. She might do so out of her own strategic interests but there is no Chapter V in your relationship.

I don't know and I really don't care. Those who do come here are in for a shock of their lives and many will not adjust.

What promise? Again, show me the treaty. You have none. There is no promise. None. Zero. Anything else is an illusion.

Colonel, i would submit that by and large Israel's non involvement with external issues have got to do with the 'Israel poison'. Anything that has Israel in it would spoil international broth, so much so even when Israel is attacked she cannot retailiate in some situations. So Israel's involvement in any international conflict is a liability to the cause no matter how noble the intentions. in the end all that Israel can do is just humanitarian assistance.

**Officer of Engineers** · 15 Jun 10,, 23:35

Originally Posted by Zinja

in the end all that Israel can do is just humanitarian assistance.

Iran-Iraq War.

**Zinja** · 15 Jun 10,, 23:42

Originally Posted by bigross86

The USA is currently led by a dick ....

Br, you may not like the guy but he a US president. Thats no way to address the commander in chief of your strongest ally, by strongest ally i mean USA the country not person of the Presidency.

**bigross86** · 15 Jun 10,, 23:48

Originally Posted by Zinja

Br, you may not like the guy but he a US president. Thats no way to address the commander in chief of your strongest ally, by strongest ally i mean USA the country not person of the Presidency.

That may be true, but I have dual citizenship, I also hold a US passport. It's my first amendment right to call him a dick.

My situation is slightly self serving. I'm not fond of actually being in the states for a whole bunch of reasons, mainly among them family issues and my dad (who lives in NY) being a total ass that I don't get along with. I have no beef with the US, I just don't like being there myself. For some reason it grates on my nerves. I've got nothing against Americans (except for maybe those that celebrate on Memorial Day). I was born in NY but identify as an Israeli. I'll use the US passport when it helps me (work visa in Oz/NZ, shorter lines at US airports).

I know, it's playing dirty ball, but I'm pretty much taking advantage of the passport. I would pay taxes in NY, but the taxes I pay in Israel are larger so I'm exempt from US tax.

**rj1** · 16 Jun 10,, 00:31

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

It's never about the organization. It's about the men on the ground and who is willing to do what to get things done. General Dallaire tried to do too much and got nothing but infamy. General MacKenzie concentrated his mission and saved Sarajevo. General Dallaire sought permission. General MacKenzie took responsibility. General Dallaire was refused permission from New York. General MacKenzie waited until the last second to inform New York and usually on a Friday afternoon at 16:59.

And what do the organizations or governments, whom the military men of today serve at those people's pleasure, tell those military leaders to emulate: MacKenzie or Dallaire?

**Zinja** · 16 Jun 10,, 00:35

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Iran-Iraq War.

How could Israel have been expected to offer humanitarian assistance to a country that was already calling them an 'enemy of Islam' and 'the little Satan'?