Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

**InExile** · 12 Jun 10,, 23:04

I wasn't aware that it was a nations responsibility to make sure the citizens of a combatant nation were kept supplied with potato chips and coriander.
Can you point me to the supply lines to Japan circa WWII or perhaps the potato chip convoys to Bahgdad?

I think the difference is that during WWII, Japan was universally recognized as the aggressor nation; one who had begun a war of conquest in Asia, while committing atrocities. The only thing that mattered then was Japan's defeat by all means possible in the quickest time; this was probably recognized by almost everyone in the allied nations.

But now opinion is divided on Gaza. Nobody probably likes Hamas, but many look at the Palestinians as the victims; and blame Israel for the consequences of the blockade, even though Israel claims to be acting in military necessity.

Thats why there is a narrative like.....'See those mean Israeli's are not even letting the poor Gazan kids have their potato chips'

**astralis** · 12 Jun 10,, 23:36

pari,

It suits the right wing within Israel to keep their population in a state of fear: Hamas in control of Gaza does precisely that. If Israel wished to get rid of Hamas as you claim it would take a week and engender no more international anger than the current boat interception, operation cast lead or any of the other casus belli for so much righteous 'international' anger.

sounds surprisingly like the afghani/pakistani conspiracy theory that AQ is being kept alive as an excuse to allow the US to continue to interfere in afghanistan.

i'm not exactly a likudnik fan, but that coming from you surprises me.

So the bits of her statement that suit your claims are kosher and the bits that don't are not? And you dismiss her claim that the blockade prevents weapons from reaching Hamas?

i don't dismiss the claim that it prevents weapons from reaching hamas. but it seems pretty obvious to all and sundry that the -way- israel has set up the blockade is not JUST to ensure that hamas remains weapons-free, but to inflict economic punishment until gazans anger of hamas and overthrows them.

I wasn't aware that it was a nations responsibility to make sure the citizens of a combatant nation were kept supplied with potato chips and coriander.

ah, but i thought israel was only at war with hamas, not the palestinian people; and i thought the whole point of the blockade was to prevent hamas from gaining the means to prosecute war with israel.

can you tell me how the select and constantly changing list of allowed items in furthers the last? so israel feels a responsibility to make sure that gazans are supplied with aluminum, toilet cleaning products, and cinnamon, yet definitively rules out such things as cumin, clothing fabric (although they allow clothing), and dried fruit (although fresh fruit is okay?).

it makes absolutely no sense if the only purpose was to cut off hamas from weapons. however, there IS utility in this sort of blockade if one of the other goals it to throw the gazan economy into chaos. gazans don't know what will be on the "not allowed" list as it changes almost daily, and that precludes starting any sort of industry.

which tracks with what the israelis are saying: that the israeli goal for gaza is "no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis".

**InExile** · 12 Jun 10,, 23:52

which tracks with what the israelis are saying: that the israeli goal for gaza is "no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis".

I think this what Israel is doing; and it angers me. And I don't think I am reflexively anti-Israeli; it is a dangerous part of the world; and Israel has a right to take steps to ensure its survival. I just don't think that keeping the Gazans in a state of poverty and wretchedness while ensuring that they have just about enough to survive, is required from Israel's security perspective.

Dont mean to offend, but if you believe the above (quotes); I don't understand how you can say it is justifiable.

notice that i think israel is fully justified in what it is doing. it should just be upfront about it, instead of doing the "cough cough wink wink".

**bigross86** · 13 Jun 10,, 00:03

As far as I see it, the way to remove Gaza from Hamas is to force them out from the inside. If the people in Gaza city have a bad enough time of it, eventually they will kick Hamas out just to put food back on the plate.

**astralis** · 13 Jun 10,, 00:03

inexile,

Dont mean to offend, but if you believe the above (quotes); I don't understand how you can say it is justifiable.

oh, it's justified because gazans elected hamas. the question is whether or not it's wise. ie how successful has the blockade been in achieving israeli goals?

it's been quite successful in disallowing hamas arms. as for the economic warfare bit, it's successful in putting gazans out of work but not successful in creating the outrage needed to overthrow hamas.

and given the punches israel is getting on the international stage because of this, i question how wise it is for israel to continue as is. the economic warfare part isn't really working, and part of the reason why israel's needlessly pissing off people is because it continues to pretend that economic warfare is NOT a part of its repertoire when it actually so obviously is. it's time to change the parameters of the blockade. arms only.

**astralis** · 13 Jun 10,, 00:04

BR,

As far as I see it, the way to remove Gaza from Hamas is to force them out from the inside. If the people in Gaza city have a bad enough time of it, eventually they will kick Hamas out just go put food back on the plate.

yes, now if only you could persuade pari that your government is ALSO thinking that way...

**InExile** · 13 Jun 10,, 00:22

Originally Posted by bigross86

As far as I see it, the way to remove Gaza from Hamas is to force them out from the inside. If the people in Gaza city have a bad enough time of it, eventually they will kick Hamas out just to put food back on the plate.

gosh, all those hundreds of trucks weren't a lot of help then.

I doubt the Gazans could overthrow Hamas now; considering they control almost everything.

Why the heck was Hamas allowed to participate in the elections anyway?

**Zinja** · 13 Jun 10,, 00:30

And Youtube has now pulled down the Israel propaganda 'We coned the world' video. Honestly, the hypocrisy out there would make a dead dog smell like frankincense.

**Parihaka** · 13 Jun 10,, 03:11

Originally Posted by astralis

BR,

yes, now if only you could persuade pari that your government is ALSO thinking that way...

Yes, thank you for the usual facile condescension. First you contend that

Originally Posted by astralis

the whole point of it [the blockade) was to pressure gazans into kicking out hamas.

After I point out that the purpose of the blockade is to prevent Hamas the wherewithall to prosecute its war against Israel you decide that the economic portion of the blockade has nothing to do with preventing hamas from making war (

) while changing your view of its purpose to that of

the long-term goal is to get hamas to recognize israel and free gilad shalit.

Having decided that somehow an economic blockade isn't necessary to prevent hamas from waging war you then use this to claim once again that the blockade has nothing to do with hamas waging war and everything to do with Israel trying to remove hamas from power.
All the while calling me a conspiracy theorist..........

So.........

Since Israel can destroy Hamas within a week if they so wished, and since you claim that is what they wish, why don't they? International approbrium?

)

Why did Ariel Sharon take a walk on Al-Haram Al-Sharif?

Why should a blockade of a country at war with you exclude economic sanctions? After all, that is what you are trying to do to Iran, yes?

**Bigfella** · 13 Jun 10,, 05:32

Originally Posted by Parihaka

It suits the right wing within Israel to keep their population in a state of fear: Hamas in control of Gaza does precisely that. If Israel wished to get rid of Hamas as you claim it would take a week and engender no more international anger than the current boat interception, operation cast lead or any of the other casus belli for so much righteous 'international' anger.

Can't help thinking that if I'd said that I'd get yelled at. Agree, however (broadly speaking anyhow). I've long thought (and said) that there are too many people on all sides who find the simplicities of conflict preferable to the compexities of making & maintaining peace.

**astralis** · 13 Jun 10,, 06:22

pari,

the crux of our argument lies within our interpretation of israeli intentions.

you think that the blockade is there because the israel right-wing doesn't want to get rid of hamas, just de-fang them. (although you'll have to explain to me why the right wing would choose a defanged hamas to keep their population in a state of fear, especially considering that israel also has iran, hezbollah, and syria, plus a multitude of other associated terrorist groups to worry about.)

i think the blockade is there because israel is trying to not only defang hamas but also to incite the gazans into kicking hamas out.

well, your assertion can be easily tested...let's see what happens when center-left kadima takes over, as seems increasingly likely.

**Genosaurer** · 13 Jun 10,, 06:56

Originally Posted by astralis

well, your assertion can be easily tested...let's see what happens when center-left kadima takes over, as seems increasingly likely.

Is there any reason to expect different from Kadima than what they did in 2006-2009 when they were running the show?

(That's not a rhetorical question, I don't follow Israeli domestic politics very closely. Has something changed with the party, or is there some new outside factor, that would change things since their last go?)

**Parihaka** · 13 Jun 10,, 08:11

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Can't help thinking that if I'd said that I'd get yelled at. Agree, however. I've long thought (and said) that there are too many people on all sides who find the simplicities of conflict preferable to the compexities of making & maintaining peace.

Agreed: it suits the right wing within Israel; it suits Hamas and the surrounding Arab and Persian nations and it suits those who've long taken an interest in Israel/Jewish affairs.

As for being shouted at, I swear we can hear you Aussies have a pub fight from this side of the Tasman: since when has being yelled at worried you?

**Parihaka** · 13 Jun 10,, 08:21

Originally Posted by astralis

pari,

the crux of our argument lies within our interpretation of israeli intentions.

you think that the blockade is there because the israel right-wing doesn't want to get rid of hamas, just de-fang them. (although you'll have to explain to me why the right wing would choose a defanged hamas to keep their population in a state of fear, especially considering that israel also has iran, hezbollah, and syria, plus a multitude of other associated terrorist groups to worry about.)

i think the blockade is there because israel is trying to not only defang hamas but also to incite the gazans into kicking hamas out.

well, your assertion can be easily tested...let's see what happens when center-left kadima takes over, as seems increasingly likely.

The last time the left (Labour) held power in Israel peace almost broke out all over the place. Then Rabin was assassinated by a right wing crazy, the right wing took over again and hey presto! the second intifida. Kadima only seems centre left: it was Olmert who pissed you off demanding missiles, missiles and more missiles for our very own Jewish Assassin's Lebanese sojourn.

**Bigfella** · 13 Jun 10,, 08:24

Originally Posted by astralis

pari,

the crux of our argument lies within our interpretation of israeli intentions.

you think that the blockade is there because the israel right-wing doesn't want to get rid of hamas, just de-fang them. (although you'll have to explain to me why the right wing would choose a defanged hamas to keep their population in a state of fear, especially considering that israel also has iran, hezbollah, and syria, plus a multitude of other associated terrorist groups to worry about.)

i think the blockade is there because israel is trying to not only defang hamas but also to incite the gazans into kicking hamas out.

well, your assertion can be easily tested...let's see what happens when center-left kadima takes over, as seems increasingly likely.

While I think the 'fear' bit does help the extreme right , I would argue that Hamas does have one or two other things to offer - a divided & therefore weakened Palestinian polity & continued 'proof' that Palestinians can't be trusted with a state. They also agree on one thing - neither really wants a '2 state' solution. Fatah does, but so far not on terms Israel thinks are reasonable.

I too will be curious to see if a Kadima-led government & Fatah suddenly find that they can agree on terms after all. If they can then perhaps Bibi will have served some positive purpose in his political life.