Thread: Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

Originally Posted by Genosaurer

I was not suggesting a solution, I was simply providing a counterpoint an oft-repeated canard.

If you think that Israel's best course of action is to withdraw to pre-1967 borders, that's your call. But don't try to justify it with nonsense.

The Israelis themselves seem bent on creating a fourth state for the Palestinians. As an outside observer here in the US, who am I to tell them they're wrong? I just hope it doesn't come back to bite them in the arse afterwords.

Its not my call. Its the Israelis call, and the Palestinians. And you still have simply refused to answer my question, what do you suggest than, in your clear defence of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory. Do the neighbouring Arab countries expand their borders and annex the Palestinian territories? Or they gift all Palestinian land to the Israelis and take in all Palestinians as refugees? Its a simple question, fourth state or not.

I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make by saying that. My point was not that Palestinian arabs did not exist (clearly they did), but that they were not a distinct ethnic or cultural group, and that the only thing making them different from Jordanians or Syrians or Lebanese is a bunch of lines that were drawn on a map in 1923.

How does it matter? So you would have Jordan, Syria and Lebanon getting those territories.. or the current Palestinians. In no scenario do those territories go to the Israelis.

Did you read the post you quoted, or just skim it?

Here is what Mandatory Palestine looked like:



Isreal today covers roughly 17.5% of the land area of the 1920 British Mandate for Palestine.

That was the British Mandate of Palestine before it collapsed and the British handed control of Transjordan to the Hashemites. The territories which the UN general assembly partitioned looked a lot more like the Israel/Palestine border of today. Also, Jordan and Egypt annexing West Bank and Gaza till 1967 was probably the reason those territories were saved from Israeli expansion, unlike now, where West Bank and Gaza both have almost entirely been replaced by Israeli settlements.

Originally Posted by InExile

In any case why would any Gazan be grateful to Israel for the withdrawal? He is still hungry, barely has shelter for himself, doesn't have a job probably, Israel still blockades and strangulates his economy; its pretty easy to blame the hated Israeli State for his predicament; thats human nature, instead of his own leadership ( I already said, I think Hamas is equally to blame as is Israel, IMO )

Because that's what normal people do. If we're both arguing about something, if I make a concession towards compromise you are supposed to be grateful and make a concession towards compromise yourself. If both sides do that enough times, you meet somewhere in the middle in agreement.



That video, despite being a very good propaganda piece, shows overflowing markets in Gaza and massive convoys of foodstuffs into Gaza.

I think neither side of late has negotiated in good faith or show the resolve or commitment to make comprises on any meaningful issues.

Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert offered Yasir Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, respectively, over 90% of everything they asked for on 2 separate occasions. The Palestinians reply? Go to hell.

So now, instead of a concession towards compromise Israel has twice dropped their pants, bent over and offered to take it up the ass, and twice, by two consecutive Palestinians leaders has been told to get lost. Bring on a leader who knows how to negotiate, we'll talk

Originally Posted by beka

Why should the Palestinians thank you for stopping PART of your stealing, when your still stealing.And once again I didn't say that the Israeli troops should leave, they can leave when the violence stops, which I think is a fair bargin. I said the settlements should leave because the settlements make a Palestinian state impossible. There's a key difference.

It's great that you haven't answered any of the questions I posed to you, or taken heed of anything I said. Well done.

And really the problem is that Israel regards any rocket fire from any group, as a break of the cease fire. For all of its issues Hamas tries to keep the ceasefire, but it can be difficult to stop every single militant.

Why should Israel thank the Palestinians for stopping part of their rockets when they're still launching rockets? How does that logic work for you?

The point is once again the settlements are wrong. Period. Its wrong to bull doze Palestinians homes and houses to make way for the settlements. It increases the resentment. The individual Palestinian can't stop all the militants, but the Israeli government most certainly can stop taking more homes, olive trees etc from the individual Palestinian. That's basic justice.

Really? Bulldozing Palestinian homes to make room for Jewish ones. Do you have proof of this? I haven't heard of this, so I'd love to see some proof.

And that's what bugs me. Nobody says the Israelis should face horrible collective punishment for what their miltiants do. And they shouldn't. But somehow its a-okay for the Palestinians to be treated this way.

Let's get something straight: Militant, as a noun, is used as a term for warriors who do not belong to an established government military organization. It can also be used as a euphemism for the word terrorist. Israeli soldiers are just that. Soldiers, not militants, of the Israeli Defense Forces, an organization I proudly claim membership of as well.

What bugs me is not that I think the Palestinians are all innocent. What bugs me is the real feeling get when people talk about why should we give up these settlements, that people just don't care that millions of people have been denied basic rights for 40 plus years. And you know what suicide bombings weren't going around all that time.

• September 1968: Tel Aviv bus gets bombed, 1 dead and 71 wounded.
  
• November 1968 Mahaneh Yehuda car bomb attack, 12 dead and 52 injured
  
• February 1969 Jerusalem bombing, 2 dead and 20 injured
  
• October 1969 Haifa apartment bombings, 4 dead and 20 injured.

Those all happened 41-42 years ago. Is there egg on your face yet? No? Let's continue:

Between the 1956 war and the 1967 war, Israeli civilian and military casualties on all Arab fronts inflicted by regular and irregular forces (including those of Palestinian fedayeen), averaged one per month (an estimated total of 132 fatalities).

Let's see, 2010-1956=54 years! There were attacks on Israeli civilians as early as 54 years ago?! Shocking!

Oh, and by the way, you still have yet to give me proof of human rights violations

Originally Posted by InExile

I don't think that is really true. Ofcourse Hamas are not competent economic managers; I would say they share equal responsibility with Israel for the sorry state that Gaza is in.

• Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 30 May-5 June 2010
  - 484 truckloads (12,413 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
  - 994,026 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station and 43,000 liters for transportation, as well as 44,500 liters of gasoline and 748 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
  - 373 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons via the Erez Crossing.
• Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 23-29 May 2010
  - 673 truckloads (16,375 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip. This includes building materials (cement, aluminum, glass and wood profiles), books and toys for the children, and equipment for summer camps.
  - 1,054,168 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station, and 873 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
  - 402 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons via the Erez Crossing.
• Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 16-22 May 2010
  - 523 truckloads (13,517 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
  - 938,127 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station, and 645 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
  - 281 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons via the Erez Crossing.
• Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 9-14 May 2010
  - 637 truckloads (14,069 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
  - 810,209 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station, and 897 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
  - 781 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons via the Erez Crossing.
• Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 2 -8 May 2010
  - 714 truckloads (17,060 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
  - 1,535,777 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station and 293,796 liters for transportation, and 917 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
  - 370 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons and 93 entered Israel for other reasons via the Erez Crossing.

Nope. No aid at all.

But the role of Israel cannot be denied. It controls the airspace and coastline of Gaza; it blocks so many categories of goods shipped into Gaza; because they might have dual purposes. Nothing can be shipped in, unless it first inspected and subject to extensive delays. Try running your economy under those constraints and say it is not 'economic strangulation'.

All part of a perfectly legal blockade against Hamas which is in a self declared state of war against Israel. Want the blockade lifted? Get rid of Hamas.

Ofcourse as long as people are not starving to death; it is all fine, atleast Israel cannot in any way be compared to certain murderous regimes in the past.

See above. You want better conditions? Get rid of Hamas.

Originally Posted by Tronic

Palestinians have been driven to non-existence if you look at their territory map today. Go back to the '67 border than I'll take it that Israel is serious about peace, other than that, I don't take Israel has good faith on the issue either.

As soon as the USA and Canada give back everything they took from the Indians. The Falkland Islands should of course be returned to Argentina. Australia should be returned to the Aborigines and New Zealand to the Maori. I'm sure there are a couple others I forgot along the way somewhere. It's a big world.

Tell you what: You get started along with those, we'll join you.