India Australia Relations

**Chunder** · 11th January 2010 10:50

Originally Posted by rj1

That is completely untrue and to be frank I find your statement insulting. Here's the two reasons why:

Your going to be insulted anyway. Late night service stations have one of the highest chances of falling victim to attack.

The thread is in relation to Australia, not the U.S.

The late night staffing of service stations is not done by the naturalised populace. They have read too many local newspapers, watched TV, or sought out a day shift.

This invariably means that those willing to take high risk jobs to get by on their Visa, will do so. Does this mean if a attendant of a service station gets attacked by the nature of their job, that because of their skin color the Australian government should act? No... it means they become a statistic.

**YoungIndia** · 11th January 2010 12:21

Originally Posted by rj1

I don't think that's true, if so it's something new or I've never heard of it. Two of my fellow workers are Indians here on a visa, 1 of which was able to work off campus in an internship capacity.

foreign Students on a student visa can work 20 hrs of oncampus work a week and cannot work off campus. (atleast when i studied 8 years ago).

students lucky to get Internships can do so, after 8 months of study and with atleast 3 GPA(i.e not under probabtion) after getting approval from the international student service in the niversity.

However , indian students in big cities like chicago regularly get employed in gas stations as graduate study is a struggle financially for most middle class indians and every penny matters. however if they get cauight, the INS can send them home straightaway as its violation of immigration rules.

and yes the indian workers in the gas stations have told me how they have been threatened at late night by knife wielding thieves but they are safe behind a bullet proof counter. they say they are used to "such things" and carry weapons of their own. i am not saying this is the picture everywhere.but you should be aware these things do happen.

the cash counters open at late nights are good targets for attack.we all should know that.

**YoungIndia** · 11th January 2010 12:26

Originally Posted by xinhui

pChan

in the US, you can work off-compus if you have a sponsor

can you elaborate? i never heard of it when i studied or worked.

actually if you have a sponsor, the us consulate in india would almost certainly reject the visa application in the first place. they are pretty strict in that (unspoken rule) your parents would have to pay for your study or you have to cover yourself by assistantships. That's the scenario for indian student applicants.

**rj1** · 11th January 2010 23:14

Originally Posted by pChan

My response was actually to the situation in Australia.

No it wasn't. Here was your original post that I quoted. The part I bolded is what I actually took out of it. The bolded italics part shows you weren't talking about Australia.

pChan: International students in US cannot work off-campus for part-time jobs during a semester. Internship happen during summer break & requires a fair degree of paperwork to ascertain that it serves the academic pursuit of the student. Students get to do internships in professional organization and are unlikely to get attacked - a situation quite different from the kind of response that a student working in a gas station (part-time) would elicit.

YoungIndia: and yes the indian workers in the gas stations have told me how they have been threatened at late night by knife wielding thieves but they are safe behind a bullet proof counter. they say they are used to "such things" and carry weapons of their own. i am not saying this is the picture everywhere. but you should be aware these things do happen.

Crime happens in this country? Wow, had no idea. When I opened my door a couple years ago and found my house ransacked and all the electronics gone I thought a dog had done it.

YoungIndia: the cash counters open at late nights are good targets for attack.we all should know that.

And it's that way regardless of the race or nationality of the person behind the counter. You think if a white or black person is behind the counter late at night a person coming in to rob a store decides he or she would reconsider and not do it? You and pChan are both stating or implying that these are racist crimes because an Indian or some other foreign national got attacked. So are you saying that if the person behind the gas station counter was white or black instead the person would not have gotten attacked or robbed? You're making the logical fallacy of you have one answer for everything and you will then seek to apply anything that ever happens to that one answer. A foreign national getting robbed in a gas station does not imply a racially-driven hate crime. More often than not, the motive is solely financial, and money is colorblind.

Chunder: The thread is in relation to Australia, not the U.S.

As I show above, pChan specifically brought up the U.S. I'm answering him.

**pChan** · 12th January 2010 05:37

Originally Posted by rj1

No it wasn't. Here was your original post that I quoted. The part I bolded is what I actually took out of it. The bolded italics part shows you weren't talking about Australia.

Looking at the post one more time I agree that it is ambiguous. But what I meant is if the American example is adopted then an attack is less probable (in the context of Australia & more specifically the post I quoted from this thread). I hope this removes any ambiguity from the post.

Originally Posted by rj1

And it's that way regardless of the race or nationality of the person behind the counter. You think if a white or black person is behind the counter late at night a person coming in to rob a store decides he or she would reconsider and not do it? You and pChan are both stating or implying that these are racist crimes because an Indian or some other foreign national got attacked. So are you saying that if the person behind the gas station counter was white or black instead the person would not have gotten attacked or robbed? You're making the logical fallacy of you have one answer for everything and you will then seek to apply anything that ever happens to that one answer. A foreign national getting robbed in a gas station does not imply a racially-driven hate crime. More often than not, the motive is solely financial, and money is colorblind.

There are a variety of reasons why International students are more vulnerable to attacks than American citizens & most of them have nothing to do with racism. In the University I attended there was a police session in which the officer specifically warned that International students tend to be targeted more when it comes to off-campus crimes. I suspected that it was less to do with xenophobia and more to do with standing up for one's rights, factors like having a car to get to a courtroom, monetary demands of legal action amid a tight financial situation, appropriate support circle etc. As for your inference that I implied racism I tend to look at the whole problem in a xenophobic angle rather than a racist angle - I believe that its neither and more to do with factors mentioned above as far as America is concerned & there are exceptions to this as I know of racist/xenophobic attacks too. Not sure about Australia though. You seem to be as quick in inferring racist motives as Al-sharpton is in calling racism. But then I would hold my judgement as my above post was ambiguous.

**indus creed** · 12th January 2010 06:18

The real morons are the Indian students who would still want to go to Australia for their studies or whatever. It wouldn't make any difference to me whether I get clobbered by a racist or an equal opportunity mugger. If it ain't safe then I wouldn't go there.

**paintgun** · 12th January 2010 06:44

I would not call people trying to get a better education or taking a chance to improve their lives morons
Thats like calling your goverment incompetent at providing education for its people

We have many people going to Aussie to work and study as well

Australian authorities must do something about this

**indus creed** · 12th January 2010 07:18

Originally Posted by paintgun

I would not call people trying to get a better education or taking a chance to improve their lives morons
Thats like calling your goverment incompetent at providing education for its people

We have many people going to Aussie to work and study as well

Australian authorities must do something about this

I would at least postpone my studies until safety issues have been sorted out. Australia is not the uber safe place that I imagined it was. Or maybe things have changed over the years. At least Melbourne or Sydney seem to have some issues with crime and I would avoid those cities until they are safer, especially when I don't have enough money to live in safer neighborhoods.

**Chunder** · 12th January 2010 08:03

Originally Posted by paintgun

Australian authorities must do something about this

Okay, now the question. What should they do?

Warn international Students?
Provide escorts for them?
Have a curfew after 9pm?

This is ridiculous. The only thing we can do is look at ourselves and our instances on crime. Why it should be any different based on race/ethnicity is asking the impossible & unreasonable.

**kuku** · 12th January 2010 08:11

Originally Posted by paintgun

I would not call people trying to get a better education or taking a chance to improve their lives morons
Thats like calling your goverment incompetent at providing education for its people

We have many people going to Aussie to work and study as well

Australian authorities must do something about this

I would label a bulk of my government and the people who run it, incompetent, corrupt, and murderers (especially corrupt people in the public food distribution system who steal from the poorest of the poor).

But that is just me.

The government of India has a primary duty of improving the law and order situation in India, they have to comment on such events happening in other nations, however that is all they can do, the government can release a warning to: (as quoted before)
Warn Students?
Suggest going out in groups or a curfew after 9pm.
Open up a helpline for any complaints were the local police was not helpful.

And that would be the work of the members of Indian Embassy in that nation, failing even these steps (and mere rhetoric), action against the officials of the Embassy should be initiated, its there job.

As for the people who go to that nation to study or in search of a better life, its a decision they have to take, and should have the freedom to(take that decision).

**Aussiegunner** · 12th January 2010 08:33

I don't know if there is or isn't a racial element to these attacks but I would suggest to everybody here that much of it is to do with the fact that Melbourne is a big city, with all the associated problems such as violent crime that big cities everywhere suffer. If Indian students are so scared by these reports that they don't want to come to Melboune then that would be disappointing for us to loose the business, and because the majority of Australians care very much about our reputation as a tolerent, peaceful country. However, that is the business of the students and their parents, and if you feel that not coming here is the best thing for you then that is your perogative.

The only thing that I would ask is that before you make your decision, base your decision on fact instead of media hype and do some research into the comparitive crime statistics between Melbourne and with other big cities around the world that you might be thinking of studying in, including your own. I would be prepared to bet that there aren't going to be many other big cities where you are going to be any safer.

**Bigfella** · 12th January 2010 09:16

Originally Posted by Aussiegunner

I don't know if there is or isn't a racial element to these attacks but I would suggest to everybody here that much of it is to do with the fact that Melbourne is a big city, with all the associated problems such as violent crime that big cities everywhere suffer. If Indian students are so scared by these reports that they don't want to come to Melboune then that would be disappointing for us to loose the business, and because the majority of Australians care very much about our reputation as a tolerent, peaceful country. However, that is the business of the students and their parents, and if you feel that not coming here is the best thing for you then that is your perogative.

The only thing that I would ask is that before you make your decision, base your decision on fact instead of media hype and do some research into the comparitive crime statistics between Melbourne and with other big cities around the world that you might be thinking of studying in, including your own. I would be prepared to bet that there aren't going to be many other big cities where you are going to be any safer.

I concur.

These crimes are a tragedy for the victims. The police are doing what they can. The reaction of the Indian media is not helping & neither is p[olitical opportunism in either country.

Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to interact with Indian students through work & sport. They were & are uniformly nice people & it pains me to think that they would in any way feel unwelcome here. We greatly value the contribution Indian students make to our city & country, but the brutal truth is that there are many, many more people in this world looking for a 'western' education & chance at residency in Australia than there are spots for them. Ultimately any shortfall from India will be made up elsewhere, and it is Indians who will lose out most.

There are undoubtedly racists in Australia. They come in all shapes & sizes, from the genteel 'I'm not a racist but...' types (by far the majority of racists) to those prepared to act on their prejudice (a very small number). There are also people who will pick on others because they are percieved as 'weak' or 'different' - an easy way to make a quick dollar or simply assert personal power. I don't know if such behaviours can be classified 'racist' or not, but I believe they explain the vast majority of the incidents we are discussing.

What I do know is that the vast majority of Australians are friendly & welcoming to outsiders, be they visitors or migrants. I see it daily.

People may find this letter from today's Melbourne Age of interest:

SOME people are chattering, they sound vibrant and full of life because they are young. They call Australia racist. I am a student and have been here for more than two years. I am from West Africa and even there, you get the odd look from someone who feels you are from the wrong tribe. I would know if Australia were racist.

I have worked as a waiter and am now a permanent part-time employee with Woolworths. In November, my university used my face to advertise in the weekend paper. I write fortnightly for its international news webpage. I have tutored a Caucasian Australian student when she was home alone with the dog. Her mum came home, said ''hi'', and when I left, bade me farewell. I have gone clubbing, danced in flashing lights, got money from an ATM at 3am, jumped in a taxi, and got home safe. If you think Australia is racist, you have not experienced racial discrimination.

Joseph Patrick, Boronia

We failed in our duty to students

**Aussiegunner** · 12th January 2010 09:27

For saying that the "Australian Government should do something" FYI (it is actually the Victorian State Government which is responsible), you might like to note that people going to the relevant train stations are now being subjected to random searches for weapons, something that was previously unknown and which is considered to be a pretty serious encroachment of civil liberties in Australia anywhere outside of an airport.

Has the Indian media picked up on this story? If not, why not.

See article below.

"Police seize weapons at train station

POLICE have found knives, a machete and knuckledusters in a random search for weapons at a Melbourne railway station, days after Indian student Nitin Garg was stabbed nearby.

In a show of their resolve to stamp out violent street crime, a team of officers patrolled Footscray train station today searching for knives.

The trial search-and-seize blitz, dubbed operation Omni, has been made possible by a beefing up of police powers and is expected to be expanded to other suburbs.

Police have the power to search individuals at random for knives and other weapons in designated areas without a search warrant.

People were scanned with a metal detector wand, then frisked and body searched if required.

In all, 182 people were searched at the station in the three hours to 4pm (AEDT) today, police said.

Seven people were found carrying 12 weapons in total.

Police also issued four penalty notices for people carrying alcohol on public transport, hindering or obstructing an operation, disorderly conduct and drunkenness.

One person with outstanding warrants was arrested.

Deputy Police Commissioner Kieran Walshe said the operation was a success.

"Today's operation has enabled us to detect these weapons before they are used in crimes, making the area much safer for train commuters and the broader community,'' he said.

"It is our intention to run a number of targeted operations in weapons hot spots this year until we see a reduction in weapon related crimes,'' he said.

Earlier, Mr Walshe told reporters police were required to give the public seven days notice of planned search operations but other, intelligence based, searches could be carried out without warning.

"I am confident that these laws are going to give us a great opportunity to take weapons out of the community,'' Mr Walshe said.

Acting Premier Rob Hulls said Nitin Garg's death "confirms absolutely that we have to do everything we can to support police to wipe out street crime, to wipe out knife-related crime, and that's why these powers are so important''.

Mr Hulls and the deputy commissioner met with the Indian high commissioner and consul general on Thursday to reassure them that Victoria was doing everything possible to bring Mr Garg's killer to justice.

They also sought to assure the Indian diplomats that Victoria was a safe place to study.

Mr Garg, 21, was stabbed in a park late Saturday night as he walked to his part-time job at a Hungry Jack's restaurant. He died later in hospital."

Police seize weapons at train station | The Australian

**kuku** · 12th January 2010 11:51

Every nation has some form of discrimination going on, god knows how many time i have been called a *****i right here in Delhi and back in my hometown being called a Bihari(which literally means a person from the state of Bihar) is a derogatory thing (?), and my village is some 400 kms away from the place. A African can be a racist towards a Asian, a Asian can be racist towards a European etc. etc. I doubt Australia is any less racist than any other nation.

This looks like a law and order situation and i guess improving law and order is always an advantage.

The media does not care if there is any racist angle to this or not, they want a racist angle in this story, sells more news papers, never trust the media, unless you can buy them. Most of the channels these days have a rating system where the users can sms and choose the stories that are important.

If the money from Indian Students is a big industry, pay them money to project a safe Australia, if the students can be replaced with others why bother with what the media cries about?

**lemontree** · 16th January 2010 13:12

The Indians in Australia, should find a solution for their problems in Australia, within Australian law - they choose to live in that country.

The Indian Govt. should stop trying to lecture the Australian Govt on protecting India's former citizens. They are Australia's citizens now, so let them deal with it.

As for the students, they have the option to come back to India or hop over to NZ.

Also Indians must introspect, as to the reason for the attacks - have they/ we been obnoxious over the years?

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