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Thread: India Australia Relations

  1. #136
    Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    I see our Aussie friends have the same issues as the US in this regard. A lot of immigrants wondering what freebies that they can get from their host country. Good grief! Heaven forbid, that after gaining a good education that some of them may return home to better their countryman's lot.

  2. #137
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    I see our Aussie friends have the same issues as the US in this regard. A lot of immigrants wondering what freebies that they can get from their host country. Good grief! Heaven forbid, that after gaining a good education that some of them may return home to better their countryman's lot.
    There is a big difference between immigrants and international students. The "good education" we pay big time for. Infact, the Canucks have already squeezed almost $100k from me, and much more to come. ) I'd be a little offended if the Canucks thought they were doing me a favour.

    And as for immigrants, I don't know what freebies you're talking of, but stop equating them with international students! There's a big difference. And secondly, a great deal of the students go back, and the ones that stay, stay because the government needs their skills. Just imagine, you're getting a person who paid for his whole education and the government did not need to give him/her loans or subsidize his education. Than there are the companies who hire these students, I know of some who were hired in the US but their company decided to send them to work in the company's branch in India. Its a win-win for both. But I'm aware there are others who come pretending to get an education, and their motive is migration. Well, in that case, it is entirely up to the government to put in place laws which will prevent them from migrating, and it can be easily done.
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  3. #138
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boks View Post
    If you ask me - Are Aussies racist? I’ll say some are (some of the dinner table convs while I was waiting tables were quite off the charts) but I also met several normal everyday people who weren't and I would suggest majority is not. You need to keep in mind the following while passing judgement. Australia changed their all white immigration policy in 1975. So assuming some lag, that is just about 25 odd years of immigration the society has experienced till now. Any assimilation process is generally long term and often takes atleast a generation. One visit to the Sydney CBD would indicate that there have been massive changes in population mix in a short period and that’s a lot to get used to. I think a more fair assessment of Australia’s ability to deal with immigration is that the last 25 years have gone relatively peacefully without any major instances of race riots or (barring recent Indian cases) racist incidents. This should be appreciated and encouraged, instead of blowing the whole issue out of proportion and forcing Australians to batten down the hatches. Caveat - This is not to belittle anything Indians might have faced in recent incidents, just providing my two bits based on the time I spent there.
    Boks,

    Good post. Thanks for your observations. Just a few minor points on the 'White Australia Policy' - a policy I completely disagree with (or would have if I had been old enough to at the time).

    First, it ended in 1973.

    Second, it was gradually relaxed post-WW2. A policy that had once attempted to limit migration to northern European types changed dramatically. Smaller numbers of Sth Europeans had been allowed in, but they were more likely to be refused. In the 25 years before the policy was abolished huge numbers of Greeks & italians came to Australia. Smaller numbers of Turks, Maltese & lebanese also came. Indeed, the two largest Maltese cities in the world by population are Sydney & Melbourne (both more than twice the size of Valetta). At the time these people were not considered 'white' in the same way as anglo-celtic Australians, though now they are.

    There were also small but significant changes on the issue of non-Europeans (see below).

    My point here is not that Australia was not possessed of both broad & deep racism at the time, but that we were not a monolithically 'white' society before 1973. Attitudes were undergoing a significant change even before then. It saddens me that some of these attitudes persist in Australia, but the nasty stuff is now limited to a fairly small minority.

    From Wiki:

    Australian policy began to shift towards significantly increasing immigration. Legislative changes over the next few decades continuously opened up immigration in Australia.[10]

    1947 The Australian Government relaxed the Immigration Restriction Act allowing Non-Europeans the right to settle permanently in Australia for business reasons.

    1950 Colombo Plan, students from Asian countries were admitted to study at Australian universities.

    1957 Non-Europeans with 15 years' residence in Australia were allowed to become citizens.

    1958 The Revised Migration Act of 1958 abolished the dictation test and introduced a simpler system for entry.

    1959 Australians were permitted to sponsor Asian spouses for citizenship.

    1964 Conditions of entry for people of Non-European stock were relaxed.
    After a review of the European policy in March 1966, Immigration Minister Hubert Opperman announced applications for migration would be accepted from well-qualified people on the basis of their suitability as settlers, their ability to integrate readily and their possession of qualifications positively useful to Australia. At the same time, the Holt Liberal government decided a number of "temporary resident" non-Europeans, who were not required to leave Australia, could become permanent residents and citizens after five years (the same as for Europeans).

    As a result, annual non-European settler arrivals rose from 746 in 1966 to 2,696 in 1971, while annual part-European settler arrivals rose from 1,498 to 6,054.[11]
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  4. #139
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    When international students pay to study in Australian universities, and thus are charged at significantly higher rates, are those rates higher because:

    a) the government does not subsidise their study, and thus their fees are a true reflection of their education costs. Or:

    b) the universities simply realise the money-making potential of the overseas demand for superior education and are just trying to make their institutions more profitable.

  5. #140
    Contributor StevoJH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramo View Post
    When international students pay to study in Australian universities, and thus are charged at significantly higher rates, are those rates higher because:

    a) the government does not subsidise their study, and thus their fees are a true reflection of their education costs. Or:

    b) the universities simply realise the money-making potential of the overseas demand for superior education and are just trying to make their institutions more profitable.
    Its a). The course i'm doing at the moment is full fee-paying (post-grad), we get charged the same amount as international students, but unlike them we can defer it to the tax office until we are earning $40,000/year, they have to pay upfront at a couple of weeks into trimester/semester.

  6. #141
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    Originally posted by StevoJH:
    But what annoys me the most is when Indian officials bitch and moan about the attacks and demand the Australian government takes action, what are they supposed to do? Assign bodyguards to each individual Indian student? Good luck with that.
    The Indian officials "bitch and moan" as diplomatically they have to get the point across and more importantly address any adverse public opnion back home. As you would have noticed, the Indian media picked it up (certainly some channels) and really milked it for all its worth. I would suggest that the private conv amongst officials would have been quite different.

    Originally posted by Bigfella:

    First, it ended in 1973.
    Yes. Sorry about that, was writing extempore. As an aside though, the immigration figures pre-1970s seem quite minisclue so all the more reason that we should restrict the reference time period to study the reaction of Australians to non-North European immigration to the last 25-30 years. Pre-1960s/70s, the figures are too low, world was a different place - segregation in the US, the white mans burden still being lifted etc etc.

    Originally Posted by calass:

    But generally it is not the traditional middle class which is immigrating to Australia. The typical middle class migrants have always migrated to the US and still do. The lower middle class(with not the same skills) are the one going to Australia. Australia with her poor immigration policies are inviting the not so good immigrants to come there. Giving PR's easily to hair dressers,cooks and vocational occupations is ridiculous. As a contrast in the US engineers have to wait a decade to get their PR. I believe the difference will show in the mean incomes of Indian migrants in the US and Australia.
    Agree on the immigration policies skewing the patterns, as I understand, the vocational sectors was where Australia was facing a shortage so the policies were made to address that shortage. Also, as opposed to pChan's view, atleast in India, skills have everything to do with class - not because I have a class bias, simply that if you are middle class/higher, the opportunities you get to develop skills (english, exposure etc) in the formative years are far higher, thats the unfortunate truth. Typically, a middle class Indian teen would never opt for vocational occupation as they are looked down upon, so you will get immigrants from the lower economic strata. Australia, atleast in my experience, seems much more egalatarian (less occupational/class bias) in that respect, so maybe its an alien concept to you. E.g. my dean's partner was a plumber, they had different upbringing but he seemed completely at ease with it, made more money than her and no chip on his shoulder. Thats impossible in India.).

  7. #142
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boks View Post
    The Indian officials "bitch and moan" as diplomatically they have to get the point across and more importantly address any adverse public opnion back home. As you would have noticed, the Indian media picked it up (certainly some channels) and really milked it for all its worth. I would suggest that the private conv amongst officials would have been quite different.
    Interestingly, I suspect that some of the heat in this was removed by an Indian diplomat here (consul I think) who sent a report to the Indian Parliament stating that only about 1 in 7 of the attacks were racially motivated. Without the racial element this is just another crime story. (I posted details on this up thread somewhere)


    Yes. Sorry about that, was writing extempore. As an aside though, the immigration figures pre-1970s seem quite minisclue so all the more reason that we should restrict the reference time period to study the reaction of Australians to non-North European immigration to the last 25-30 years. Pre-1960s/70s, the figures are too low, world was a different place - segregation in the US, the white mans burden still being lifted etc etc.
    Not quite sure of your point here. Migration from Sth Europe was very high from 1949 - part of Australia's changing attitudes to race. By the early 70s we were ready to change further & the scope of migration changed. I think that is what you were getting at, but I'm not entirely sure.

    These figures might interest you.

    Post war immigration to Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Not quite sure of your point here. Migration from Sth Europe was very high from 1949 - part of Australia's changing attitudes to race. By the early 70s we were ready to change further & the scope of migration changed. I think that is what you were getting at, but I'm not entirely sure.

    These figures might interest you.

    Post war immigration to Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    As a result, annual non-European settler arrivals rose from 746 in 1966 to 2,696 in 1971, while annual part-European settler arrivals rose from 1,498 to 6,054[/url]
    Yes basic point is that. On the figures, I responded to the above figures quoted which seemed very low. Based on Wiki link, the SEurope* migration on a consolidated basis was c.6.5% of total avg popln during 1949-70, so point taken.

    *SEurope = Italy, Greece, Spain.

  9. #144
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boks View Post
    Yes basic point is that. On the figures, I responded to the above figures quoted which seemed very low. Based on Wiki link, the SEurope* migration on a consolidated basis was c.6.5% of total avg popln during 1949-70, so point taken.

    *SEurope = Italy, Greece, Spain.
    Sorry to seem pedantic (best intentions, honest - I'm not arguing so much as filling out the info, especially for casual readers here ), but you've left out Maltese (much higher than Spanish - perhaps 70,000 +). Also remember that the figures on that chart only cover the highest groups over a given period - so smaller numbers of P{ortugese, Spanish, Turks, Lebanese, Egyptians & others were coming in too. As we appear to agree, 'White Australia' was never quite what it seemed, and from the late 40s died a death over less than a generation. Good riddance.

    Small anecdote - my doctor is ethnic Chinese & in his early 60s. Because I live in a predominantly Vietnamese area with a large ethnic Chinese element I just assumed he was from Vietnam too. Turns out he came to Australia from Malaysia in the late 60s to study. Decided that he preferred to be the wrong race in Australia than the wrong race in Malaysia. He has never regretted the choice. Met quite a few others with the same story (over 10% of Chinese in Australia are from Malaysia - definately our gain).
    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  10. #145
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    Race attack victim comes back from Australia - Videos - India - IBNLive

    oh what a relief..its always good to be back home.

    The Good guy is back home and Australia has delivered the justice.
    Rationality says to me to have a mix reaction but sometimes rationality makes you rigid. I am happy that all is well. I want to say the story ends here and he lives happily after.
    Last edited by ambidex; 30 Jul 10, at 16:29.

  11. #146
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    Well, the verdict has been delivered on this at long last.

    A Necro thread re-opened...

    Teen jailed for murdering Indian student

    Teen jailed for murdering Indian student

    A murder that strained relations between India and Australia wasn't a racist attack but a spontaneous armed robbery by a teenage boy that went wrong.

    The killing of 21-year-old accountancy graduate Nitin Garg led to accusations of racism, diplomatic meetings and even travel warnings for Indian nationals.

    But Mr Garg's stabbing murder stemmed from a 15-year-old boy's snap decision to steal a mobile phone.

    Nearly two years later the final chapter played out in a Melbourne courtroom with a scared, sad and despondent boy being jailed for 13 years.

    Before the murder in January 2010, the boy, a high school student from a good family, had never been in trouble with police.

    But for unknown reasons, the boy had a knife in his pocket when he left his home with a friend.

    The boys were in Cruikshank Park in Yarraville when Mr Garg walked past on the way to his job at a nearby fast-food restaurant.

    The boy told his friend he would steal Mr Garg's phone.

    During the robbery, Mr Garg grabbed the boy, who then stabbed Mr Garg in the abdomen.

    Mr Garg staggered to the restaurant where he worked, before later collapsing and dying in hospital.

    That night the boy not only killed Mr Garg, but also threw away his own future career hopes, Victorian Supreme Court Justice Paul Coghlan said.

    He is one of the youngest people in Victoria to have been sentenced for murder.

    "In circumstances such as these there are just no winners," Justice Coghlan said.

    "One able young man is dead and your life is dramatically affected forevermore as a result of the consequences."

    The motive for the murder was robbery, not racism, the judge said.

    "I am also satisfied that Mr Garg was a completely random victim and it was his presence at the time and in the place while talking on his phone, which made him a victim - not his race," Justice Coghlan said.

    "It goes without saying that the community abhors the use of knives because of the consequences such as these."

    As he was led away by prison guards, the boy appeared to choke back tears.

    The boy, now 17, pleaded guilty to murder and attempted armed robbery in April this year and must serve eight years in prison before being eligible for parole.

    His 16-year-old co-accused, who pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact to Mr Garg's murder, was sentenced to 18 months' probation in December last year.

    The murder made international headlines after a series of vicious attacks on Indians in Victoria, and sparked fears Australia's multi-billion-dollar international student sector was at risk.

    The then-deputy prime minister Julia Gillard condemned the attack, while the Indian government warned it could affect bilateral ties.

    Delhi's Mail Today published a cartoon after Victorian homicide investigators were unable to say if Mr Garg's killing was racially motivated.

    The cartoon depicted a figure with an Australian police badge dressed in the pointed white hood of a Ku Klux Klan member, stating: "We are yet to ascertain the nature of the crime."

    Officers eventually did determine the nature of the crime - a random robbery by a teenager that went wrong.

    --Ends--

    Took forever to find this thread.
    Ego Numquam

  12. #147
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Glad you found it Chunder. Clealry your WAB-foo is better then mine.

    Pleased that the culprit has been convicted.
    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  13. #148
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    I just picked where I thought it maybe, and browsed through last years threads... God I blow at searches.

    13 Years for a 15 Y/O.

    Pleased that they found who did it.
    Ego Numquam

  14. #149

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    One common saying : China export goods, while India exports people.

    As a whole, most Indians seek to migrate to Australia and the education or trade vocation is a means-to-an-end.
    The huge increase in Indians migrants usually displace the locals as Indians are willing to work for a fraction of the cost. This creates anger in local communities.

    Anytime an Indian is attacked, they cry 'Racism'. It's a card that is beginning to grow tired. Whether the attack was justified, or the socio-economic reasons behind the attacks are never examined or are glossed over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    Well, the verdict has been delivered on this at long last.

    A Necro thread re-opened...

    Teen jailed for murdering Indian student

    Teen jailed for murdering Indian student

    A murder that strained relations between India and Australia wasn't a racist attack but a spontaneous armed robbery by a teenage boy that went wrong.

    The killing of 21-year-old accountancy graduate Nitin Garg led to accusations of racism, diplomatic meetings and even travel warnings for Indian nationals.

    But Mr Garg's stabbing murder stemmed from a 15-year-old boy's snap decision to steal a mobile phone.

    Nearly two years later the final chapter played out in a Melbourne courtroom with a scared, sad and despondent boy being jailed for 13 years.

    Before the murder in January 2010, the boy, a high school student from a good family, had never been in trouble with police.

    But for unknown reasons, the boy had a knife in his pocket when he left his home with a friend.

    The boys were in Cruikshank Park in Yarraville when Mr Garg walked past on the way to his job at a nearby fast-food restaurant.

    The boy told his friend he would steal Mr Garg's phone.

    During the robbery, Mr Garg grabbed the boy, who then stabbed Mr Garg in the abdomen.

    Mr Garg staggered to the restaurant where he worked, before later collapsing and dying in hospital.

    That night the boy not only killed Mr Garg, but also threw away his own future career hopes, Victorian Supreme Court Justice Paul Coghlan said.

    He is one of the youngest people in Victoria to have been sentenced for murder.

    "In circumstances such as these there are just no winners," Justice Coghlan said.

    "One able young man is dead and your life is dramatically affected forevermore as a result of the consequences."

    The motive for the murder was robbery, not racism, the judge said.

    "I am also satisfied that Mr Garg was a completely random victim and it was his presence at the time and in the place while talking on his phone, which made him a victim - not his race," Justice Coghlan said.

    "It goes without saying that the community abhors the use of knives because of the consequences such as these."

    As he was led away by prison guards, the boy appeared to choke back tears.

    The boy, now 17, pleaded guilty to murder and attempted armed robbery in April this year and must serve eight years in prison before being eligible for parole.

    His 16-year-old co-accused, who pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact to Mr Garg's murder, was sentenced to 18 months' probation in December last year.

    The murder made international headlines after a series of vicious attacks on Indians in Victoria, and sparked fears Australia's multi-billion-dollar international student sector was at risk.

    The then-deputy prime minister Julia Gillard condemned the attack, while the Indian government warned it could affect bilateral ties.

    Delhi's Mail Today published a cartoon after Victorian homicide investigators were unable to say if Mr Garg's killing was racially motivated.

    The cartoon depicted a figure with an Australian police badge dressed in the pointed white hood of a Ku Klux Klan member, stating: "We are yet to ascertain the nature of the crime."

    Officers eventually did determine the nature of the crime - a random robbery by a teenager that went wrong.

    --Ends--

    Took forever to find this thread.

  15. #150
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goryeo99 View Post
    One common saying : China export goods, while India exports people.
    Is that really a common saying? Most countries, including Australia, have more ethnic Chinese than they do ethnic Indians.


    The huge increase in Indians migrants usually displace the locals as Indians are willing to work for a fraction of the cost. This creates anger in local communities.
    Is there no such thing as minimum wage laws? Indians may be willing to work for a fraction of the cost in India, but why would they work at a fraction of the cost in Australia? If anyone is to be blamed, it is the Australian government for opening up immigration to fill a workforce shortage.


    Anytime an Indian is attacked, they cry 'Racism'. It's a card that is beginning to grow tired. Whether the attack was justified, or the socio-economic reasons behind the attacks are never examined or are glossed over.
    It was the media which created a back and fourth "racism" wave. It was all for TRPs, it sensationalized stuff. The government, hit by several corruption scandals, found a way out to divert people's attention. It hit its height with Aussie cricketers touring India labeling Indians as racist. Today, same government admits that no "racism" was involved. Same Aussies play in India's domestic cricket league.
    Last edited by Tronic; 02 Jan 12, at 20:06.
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