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Thread: Worse. Than. Carter.

  1. #61
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Such as happened in 1948, 1967, 1968-1970 and 1973? Granted, since 1973 the situation has looked up, but that doesn't change the fact that a fair number of countries refuse to recognize Israel and still consider themselves at a state of war with Israel. Syria and Iran, to name the two main belligerents, have been throwing their weight behind Hezbollah and other groups, knowing that an all out war would be too costly, but that doesn't change the fact that were the situation right, Egypt and Jordan would also probably join in the fun. Remember, a large amount of the people who live in Jordan still consider themselves Palestinians.
    None of which I disagree with (though things would have to change a bit in Egypt) & none of which makes Islamic terrorism an existential threat to Israel. Such a threat has existed in the past (as I noted) and may exist again, but right now those with the desire lack the capability & those with the capability don't have the desire. Overstating the threat contributes nothing to the fight.


    Perhaps that was phrased improperly. I'm referring amongst others to Obama's declaration of a withdrawal from Afghanistan in a year and a half.
    Obama was lumbered with a criminally mishandled war & an Afghan government that appears more focussed on rigging elections than governing well & fighting terrorism. Blank cheques aren't the answer. I'll make you a bet - in 2 years there will be more US troops in Afghanistan than there were when Obama took office. He promised to start withdrawing in 18 months - a sop to opponents of the war at home & a threat to Karzai. Not exactly a committment to stop fighting terrorism or terrorists.

    In the meantime some Taliban supporters can be negotiated with & some cannot. No change there since...ever.

    None of this gives Hizbullah, Hamas, Fatah or any other folk who have been taking a pot shot at you & yours any more credibility or legitimacy than they had last time you pulled on a helmet.


    When someone takes a hostage, a police negotiator is called in. Does that give the hostage taker legitimization? Does that make his cause right? Does that make it all right for him to try again? In many cases, Israel has taken the role of hostage negotiator, talking to terrorists in order to get soldiers (or even soldier's bodies) back.
    First, this isn't about right, it is about how things are. I'll be polite enough to assume you are not implying my support for terrorists if you will be polite enough not to make it look like you think I do. There are enough wrongs in this mess to keep us going until doomsday.

    Second, you & I both know that Israel's past & ongoing negotiations with groups you would define as terrorist do not stop at simple hostage negotiation or retrieving bodies. Communication on other issues takes place. We all know it, so the 'no negotiations with terrorists' stuff just doesn't hold.

    I agree with you on the Camp David Accords, but that was 30 years ago. What's happened after 1994 basically proved that Yasser Arafat could not be trusted, and was not worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize. I feel that Rabin negotiated in good faith, mainly because we was very left wing, and believed that he was helping Israel gain peace. Blinded by a dream? Perhaps.
    Personally I believe that Arafat should have taken the deal Barak offered. Both sides continue to pay for that mistake, but they also pay for an Israeli right that would rather posture against Palestinians than take on the cancer it has been feeding for over a generation - the settler movement. There are plenty of folk on both sides who find the simplicities of conflict easier than the complexities of peace.


    It was captured in 1967 from Egypt after a war that was started with a valid Cassus Belli. In 1979 Egypt renounced all territorial claims to the Gaza Strip, effectively leaving it in Israeli hands.
    So they gave that territory to the State of Israel for its own & that is internationally recognized? Must have missed the memo.

    Many other lesser known cases also involve tearing down many an Israeli settlement and giving the land to Palestinians, from as early on as 1994.
    Again, territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of the State of Israel? If you say so.


    I think the main difference can be seen from this simple point of view: In the US, military service is voluntary. In Israel there's a draft. Israel recognizes that the threat is valid, and not going anywhere any time soon.
    I agree entirely, but that is pretty much the point here. Israel is more threatened than some other nations. That doesn't mean that America won't support Israel or fight the common enemy. For those nations to try to convince themselves that the threat is greater than it is won't make the fight any easier. We all work within our local realities. Telling America or anyone else that they are not doing enough for your nation will more likely p1ss them off then encourage them to do more.

    In the meantime Americans & Australians are fighting wars half way around the world against what you see as a common enemy & America is giving you more financial & diplomatic assistance than to any comparable nation I can think of. Sorry if you don't think we're doing enough.
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  2. #62
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    Never did I say you're not doing enough to support Israel, I was just putting the conversation in a different context, instead of a broad look on the "War on Terror", I was focusing it one one area where perhaps it would be easier to define since it seems more relevant.

    Of course, I never meant to insinuate that you or anyone here supports terrorists or terrorism.

    How do you define Internationally recognized borders, if you wont recognize something that has been captured from an enemy in a valid war?

    Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic eventually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not."

    Before the UN vote for partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, they adopted the following resolution:

    We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

    In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

    In May 1947 the representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

    Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

    As a matter of fact, my grandmother's birth certificate says she was born in Jerusalem, Palestine. Does that make her a Palestinian? With a surname like Slovik, I'd doubt it.

    If the main issue here is land, then most of what is known as the United States should be returned to the Indians immediately! Dealing by a double standard is acceptable as long as it's your side that's getting the good parts...
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  3. #63
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    As for the aid, The country that get's the second largest amount of aid is Egypt, despite their having a GDP almost double that of Israel's. A large part of the aid Israel gets is money that must be spent in the US anyway, therefore putting the money right back into the US economy.

    To cap it all off, the amount of US aid to Israel amounts to approximately 3% of the 2009 Israeli budget, anyway.
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  4. #64
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Never did I say you're not doing enough to support Israel, I was just putting the conversation in a different context, instead of a broad look on the "War on Terror", I was focusing it one one area where perhaps it would be easier to define since it seems more relevant
    Fair enough, as long as you recognize that the definition only really holds for that example - it doesn't do much to illuminate the broader issue.

    Like I said, this isn't a single conflict, but a series of smaller ones that may only be related in the most peripheral way. The bringing of peace to Aceh or the virtual destruction of JI in Indonesia don't have an awful lot to do with events in Afghanistan or Israel.

    Of course, I never meant to insinuate that you or anyone here supports terrorists or terrorism.
    I didn't really think you were, but the language was a bit too ambiguous & it is a topic where those sort of allegations tend to pop up. No harm no foul.

    How do you define Internationally recognized borders, if you wont recognize something that has been captured from an enemy in a valid war?
    I'm going with recognition by the relevant international bodies.

    As for the rest, I'm not going to get into one of these carefully rehearsed history wars that conclusively prove there are no Palestineans. They remind me far too much of the sort of thing some white Australians do - use a puff of historical logic to prove that Aboriginies didn't really own Australia.

    I'll give you a simple statement & make it my last comment on the issue - it is peripheral to the thread anyway. Israeli ownership of the West Bank & Gaza has never been accepted by the nations who owned the territory when it was occupied, nor by the overwhelming majority of its occupants nor by the UN or other relevant international bodies (as far as I know). In fact, the overwhelming majority of occupants want to set up an independent state.

    If my good friend Big K had referred to Nth Cyprus as 'ours' I would have raised the same objection, likewise if you had been a Moroccan talking about Western Sahara. You may occupy it, but it ain't yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    To cap it all off, the amount of US aid to Israel amounts to approximately 3% of the 2009 Israeli budget, anyway.
    Reading from here, https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2034rank.html puts Israeli expenditure on their military as 7.3% of GDP. Im not sure what percentage break down this represents in the budget, but if you consider outside financial support being 3%, that is quite some significant help. Do you know if this aid is included in the budget or exempt from it? If it was exempt, then Israel would have pretty much the equivalent to the best possibly funded military. (That says to me that Israel is just as concerned as it ever was)

    Egypt is at 3.4% of GDP. So on a comparative basis, it seems neck & neck. Then again, Egypt of course has it's own concerns.

    Interestingly, apart from the U.S, the ABCA has marked difference, these are
    Australia 2.4,
    UK 2.4,
    Canada 1.1

    For reference the U.S is 4.06.

    Of the countries that spend the most, it seems somewhat dominated by middle eastern countries.

    For appearances, if room needed to be made in the budget to fund defence much greater from any of the ABCA countries, Recruitment aside, It gives you some Idea of the phenominal power that for instance, the U.K & particularly Canada could potentially exert if on GDP parity alongside U.S expenditure. I don't really think the end is near when looking at it from this perspective. Regardless, Australia is talking about leaving the Ghan around 2013, Canada is too. The Dutch are heading out as well. Unfortunately the press seems silent on exactly what discussions are taking place. Obviously, they have made their decisions and have some sort of reason for it.
    Last edited by Chunder; 28 Dec 09, at 07:19.
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  6. #66
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    As for the aid, The country that get's the second largest amount of aid is Egypt, despite their having a GDP almost double that of Israel's. A large part of the aid Israel gets is money that must be spent in the US anyway, therefore putting the money right back into the US economy.

    To cap it all off, the amount of US aid to Israel amounts to approximately 3% of the 2009 Israeli budget, anyway.

    Bigfella: America is giving you more financial & diplomatic assistance than to any comparable nation I can think of
    Australia has 3x Israel's population, a bunch more valuable commodities & has fought beside America (quite literally in most cases) in at least 7 major wars or conflicts over the past 100 odd years. We don't get but a fraction of that money (if any) nor do we have a fraction of the pull Israel does. BTW, 3% of our budget would cover all Defence & about half Federal education spending, so I'll take that.

    Egypt has 10 times the population, yet it gets less aid & doesn't have a fraction of the diplomatic pull Israel does. Lets not get into false equivalence. My statement stands.
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  7. #67
    Dirty Kiwi Parihaka's Avatar
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    Existential threat?

    A nation to the south which has to be paid billions of US dollars every year to not attack.

    A nation to the east which while weak is more than willing to allow transit for armies to attack.

    A nation to the north which has set up and tested a battle space specifically designed to counter Israeli armour and air capabilities whilst providing a platform from which to launch rocket attacks with impunity.

    A nation to the north-east which is the leading nation in the production of biological weapons, has the nation to the north as a vassal state, and is in turn the vassal state of a nation currently embarked on the worlds fastest and most expensive rocket development programmes. That nation is already capable of delivering medium weight payloads as far as Israel from home soil, and much larger payloads if launched from Syria or Lebanon.
    This would be the same nation whose leaders, to use the charitable version, wish publically to see the nation of Jews destroyed, and the uncharitable version wish to see the the people of the nation of Israel destroyed.

    Behind these is a major power who is happy to sell all these nations and their defacto military forces high tech weaponry such as anti-aircraft systems, anti-shipping systems and anti-tank weapons, all crucial in defeating Israeli forces.

    Preventing this is not, as is commonly asserted, the monies paid to Israel by America, but the long held belief that should war of any large scale occur, then the US would step in to support Israel.

    All that is required is an attitude of ambivalence, such as that currently portrayed by the Obama administration, an indication that support is not automatic, and the threat becomes very serious, and very real indeed.
    Personally, if the democrats hold the houses and the presidency through the next election cycles, I give Israel no more than 10 - 15 years.
    I just hope my government will be willing to take the survivors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    All that is required is an attitude of ambivalence, such as that currently portrayed by the Obama administration, an indication that support is not automatic, and the threat becomes very serious, and very real indeed.
    Personally, if the democrats hold the houses and the presidency through the next election cycles, I give Israel no more than 10 - 15 years.
    I just hope my government will be willing to take the survivors.
    True. Iran will not negotiate on nukes. An Iran with nukes and proxy is an unacceptable combination. Israel needs to look no further than India.

    And Mr.Obama is facilitating exactly that. And the destruction of Israel would have far-reaching consequences in this world. That a fundamentalist regime(no matter how bruised it gets in the process) brought down Israel would swell the rank of jihadis everywhere which in turn is highly detrimental to American/Western interests. It would feed the cult of destruction on which the jihadis thrive.

  9. #69
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    Obama and Israel: Betrayal in the Broken Places
    by Benjamin Kerstein

    Obama Netanyahu and Abbas

    The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.

    -Ernest Hemingway

    For a politician, there is no more dangerous combination of traits than hubris and ineptitude. In a friendly environment, the detrimental effects of these flaws can be staved off, for a time, by talented spin doctors, a sympathetic press, or the enthusiasm of one’s followers. In the maelstrom of Middle East politics, however, they tend to be almost immediately apparent, and the resulting fall from grace is often precipitous. President Barack Obama, who appears to possess both traits in unique abundance, has had to find this out the hard way; and whether he has learned his lesson or not remains to be seen.

    In Israel, however, conclusions have already been drawn, and the results are not particularly pretty for Obama. Put simply, he is the least popular American president in recent memory. The percentage of Israelis who consider him friendly to Israel has never been high, but it has dropped at various times into the single digits. Considering that the Israeli left polled 16% of the vote in the last elections, and the centrist Kadima party another 22% – higher, in fact, than Netanyahu’s Likud – Obama’s dismal numbers cannot be put down to simple partisanship. Israelis across the political spectrum are clearly convinced that Obama is indifferent and/or hostile to Israeli interests, sensibilities, and concerns.

    It is worth pointing out that Israel was a problem for Obama almost from the beginning. During the 2008 campaign, much was made in Jewish circles of his political roots on the radical left; his friendships with Rashid Khalidi, a vitriolic partisan of the Palestinian cause, and the demented preacher Jeremiah Wright; and his sometimes ambivalent statements on the subject. In February 2008, for example, Obama remarked, “I think there is a strain within the pro-Israel community that says unless you adopt an unwavering pro-Likud approach to Israel, then you’re anti-Israel,” which is practically identical to the rhetoric employed by Israel Lobby conspiracy theorists. His statements on Jerusalem also proved decidedly bizarre, both pledging that it would remain united and asserting that this was an issue to be settled in future negotiations. While everyone is at least vaguely aware of the fact that American presidential candidates always make promises regarding Jerusalem which they have no intention of ever keeping, the suspicion among many was that the candidate was trying to solidify his American Jewish support while signaling his true intentions to his progressive base. When Obama began his administration by demanding that Israel freeze all settlement construction, including in Jerusalem, while asking nothing of the Arabs besides a vague call for “normalization,” Obama’s Jewish detractors believed that their suspicions had been confirmed.
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    These misgivings, however, were mainly those of pro-Israel American Jews. For the most part, the Israelis themselves adopted a wait-and-see attitude toward Obama, both during the campaign and after his election. On the day the returns came in, television and radio stations all over Jerusalem were tuned into the news; and several people spontaneously expressed their sentiments to me (as Israelis are notably wont to do). Overwhelmingly, they were surprisingly well aware of the historical significance of Obama’s election in terms of America’s long and tortured struggle with the issue of race, and expressed no hostility toward him. If this was the case in one of Israel’s most politically right-wing cities, one can assume that similar attitudes prevailed in the rest of the country. Indeed, some on the Israeli left were positively enthusiastic about the new president.

    While it is true that Israelis did not greet Obama’s election with rapturous celebration, as many others did, it is easy to read too much into this. Israelis tend to be ambivalent about incoming US officials in general, especially when they are – as Obama was – relatively unknown quantities. It is also important to remember that, for much of the world, the president of the United States is largely an aesthetic experience. In the Middle East, however, the policies of the chief executive can have very serious and immediate real world consequences. As a result, Israelis on the whole tend to be more guarded and sober in their assessments. Moreover, a large part of Israelis’ apprehension regarding Obama was the fear that he would end up in a clash with Benjamin Netanyahu, who seemed the likely winner of upcoming elections. This was not a judgment on Obama or Netanyahu per se, but rather the understandable desire to avoid a rift with the United States. And when the elections were held in February 2009, it was Tzipi Livni, whose campaign included the claim that she would work more easily with Obama than Netanyahu, who won the highest percentage of the vote; although due to the intricacies of the Israeli electoral system this did not allow her to form a government.

    This indicates that Obama’s call for a settlement freeze might not have had such disastrous consequences had it been handled differently. Israelis are divided on the issue of settlements, and had Obama proved flexible on Jerusalem and its nearby “consensus” settlements, which most Israelis consider essential to their security and want to retain in any peace agreement, some sort of modus vivendi might have been reached early enough to avoid a serious breach. In his insistence on a total freeze, however, Obama was demanding something that was both too much for most Israelis to swallow and Netanyahu simply could not deliver without destroying the coalition that kept him in government. Obama may have hoped for precisely that, believing that a new, more pliable government led by Livni would replace Netanyahu. If so, it was a horrendous miscalculation. Many Israelis did not vote for Netanyahu, but very few of them like to see their country pushed around.

    Obama’s reputation in Israel might have survived even this, however, had it not been for his much-hyped “speech to the Muslim world” delivered in Cairo on June 4. Taken as a whole, the speech was simply a craven embarrassment; but the references it made to Israel could not have been more alienating and insulting had they been calculated for the purpose. How Obama’s speechwriters and advisors became convinced that equating the Holocaust with the Palestinian nakba (the word means “catastrophe,” and Arabs use it to describe the establishment of Israel and its War of Independence in 1948), comparing Israeli treatment of the Palestinians to segregation in the United States, and pointing to the Jewish people’s “tragic history” as the sole justification for Israel’s existence would assuage Israeli concerns about the new administration must remain a question for history to answer. There is no doubt, however, that this single speech (which everyone in Israel watched) did more to demolish Obama’s credibility in Israeli eyes than any of his demands on Netanyahu ever could have.

    Israelis come in many political colors, but very few of them believe that if the Jews had not suffered a Holocaust, they would not deserve a state. Zionism predates the Holocaust, and it holds that the Jewish people have an inalienable right to self-determination in their homeland, regardless of their historical sufferings. In claiming otherwise, Obama revealed not only a glaring ignorance of Israeli history and sensibilities, but also the depressing tendency of many American liberals to reduce everything to do with Judaism, Israel, and the Jewish people to the Holocaust; as though several thousand years of Jewish civilization never occurred. Obama’s remarks about segregation were perhaps less egregious, given that they had some precedent in the words of Condeleeza Rice; but they were disturbingly similar to the notorious 1975 UN resolution that declared Zionism a form of racism. By far the most damaging statement, however, was Obama’s equation of the Holocaust with the nakba. It is true that 1948 was a catastrophe for the Palestinians, and many thousands of them were displaced – voluntarily and involuntarily – as a result of the war; but for many Jews (and many non-Jews) the equation of this to the Holocaust was not only morally appalling but served to minimize a genocide that is still within living memory, and did so in front of an audience that often claims it never happened at all.

    Perhaps the most disturbing thing about the speech, however, was that Obama clearly believed he was saying things about Israel that were positive. The impression he gave was of a man who was not merely spitting in Israeli faces, but chose to do so because he thought they would like it. In a certain sense, this was even worse than a speech that was forthrightly hostile, because it implied that Obama was perfectly capable of damaging Israel out of the belief that he was actually doing it “for your own good” – a signal that the new president of the United States simply had no idea what he was doing.
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    This was devastating for Obama’s standing in Israel because, in a place like the Middle East, with its sudden shifts and unexpected eruptions of violence and instability, there is no greater sin than idealistic incompetence. Those who commit it are not simply considered dangerous, but tragically farcical. As a friend of mine, whose sympathies lie mostly on the left, told me a few weeks after the speech, “He’s just like Bush, running around the world thinking he’s going to change things…” Israelis have learned through long and bitter experience that lofty dreamers tend to be crushed under the weight of the real world, especially in the Middle East. A president who does not know this, or thinks it does not apply to him, is bound to be regarded not only with skepticism, but with outright contempt and suspicion.

    These suspicions were mostly confirmed after the Cairo speech by Obama’s total failure to wrest any concessions whatsoever out of the Arabs. No moves toward normalization have been made, and they appear more unlikely with each passing month, leading Israelis to believe that they are correct in assuming that the Arabs, even when they are offered what they supposedly want, are more interested in making life miserable for Israel than in making peace. The Palestinians, for their part, have made it clear that nothing short of a complete settlement freeze will satisfy them. Given that a complete settlement freeze is not going to happen under any foreseeable circumstances (even a Livni government would probably find it politically impossible to enact one) this means, in effect, that Obama’s even-handed approach is stillborn. The Arabs have left one hand empty, and his relationship with the Israelis is now so damaged that Netanyahu probably could not sell further concessions to the Israeli public even if he wanted to (which he most certainly does not). For Israelis, the entire situation smacks of grotesque ineptitude.

    Obama himself seems to have at least partially grasped this fact. He has been quietly backing off some of his demands, and at his September 22 meeting with Netanyahu and Abbas, he spoke of “restraining” settlement activity, rather than a complete freeze. Whether he is trying to pressure the Palestinians into making some offers of their own or trying to improve his standing in Israeli opinion polls is not clear; but what is clear is that it may have finally dawned on Obama that his attempts at changing the face of the Middle East through grand gestures and soaring rhetoric has had precisely the opposite effect. If anything, it has simply confirmed that the Middle East is not going to change anytime soon, and progress will have to come on the region’s own terms, if at all.

    In all likelihood, however, it is already too late. Indeed, it is difficult to fully convey the depth of Obama’s failure on this issue. The presidents who have been most successful in the Middle East have accomplished their goals by slowly building up confidence, relationships, and political capital with the major players in the region, and then trying to piece together some sort of rapprochement between them. Sometimes even this has proved impossible, and rapprochement has been abandoned in favor of simply lowering tensions and attempting to reach a workable status quo with a minimum of violence. In trying to forgo this simple but difficult process, Obama has not only failed to achieve any tangible gains, but may have destroyed the possibility of his ever doing so. Less than a year into his presidency, his credibility with both sides is already shot, whatever political capital he had has long since been spent, and he has personally alienated America’s closest allies in the region. As a result, it is quite possible that Obama’s role in the Middle East for the rest of his presidency will be exactly what it is now: He will make grandiose statements and hold occasional photo-ops, and the parties involved will go through the various motions required to appease the president’s immediate demands; but barring some breakthrough between Israelis and Palestinians working on their own (which is unlikely, but not impossible) this will simply produce more of the same. For a president who entered office pledging to change the world, this cannot be seen as anything other than an unmitigated disaster.

    Obama on Israel

    There are probably two main reasons for the early collapse of the Obama administration’s ambitions in the Middle East; one regarding Israel and one regarding Obama himself. In regard to Israel, Obama failed because of his inability to grasp Israel’s attitude toward the peace process in the post-Oslo era. The trauma that Oslo represents for Israel is difficult to fully convey to foreigners. It was both the first peace agreement that failed and the first time Israel gambled on peace and lost. For nearly a decade, Israel struggled through political division, assassination, terrorism, and potential civil war, only to see it all end with the most brutal terrorist war it had ever encountered. Even more traumatizing, perhaps, was the reaction of the rest of the world. Throughout the Oslo process, Israel believed that it was taking an enormous chance for peace, and that the world would acknowledge and understand this if the process failed. This faith was most fervently expressed at the 2000 Camp David negotiations, where Ehud Barak made an offer to Yasser Arafat that crossed many of Israel’s previous red lines in regard to Jerusalem, territorial concessions, and holy sites. When Arafat turned it down, and the second intifada began shortly afterward, most Israelis felt that their efforts for peace and the dangerous position they had put themselves in would at least be acknowledged by others. Precisely the opposite happened. Condemnation of Israel was more violent than it had ever been in the past, and a worldwide outbreak of anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic sentiment followed. As a result of all this, Israelis looking back on Oslo feel, more than anything else, betrayed. They have lost their faith and trust in the Arabs, in the international community, and to a great extent in the peace process in general. While they are still willing to negotiate and make concessions, they feel that they should not be asked to take an Oslo-sized gamble again.

    Obama’s opening gambit seemed, to many Israelis, like precisely that: Oslo resurrected as farce. Once again there were the dreamy, grandiose pronouncements about peace and change. Once again there seemed to be scant regard for Israel’s legitimate security concerns. One again Israel was being asked to make major concessions for what appeared to be little in return, and to an enemy Israelis did not trust. Once again Israel was being condemned for its supposed intransigence and obstructionism. Once again there were the assurances that the international community had Israel’s best interests at heart. Once again there were the admonitions that it was necessary to take risks for the sake of peace. And once again, there was the specter of an unfriendly American administration forcing Israel’s hand, just as George H.W. Bush forced Yitzhak Shamir into the Madrid conference in 1991, the first step toward the Oslo process. Whatever Obama’s personal and political charms may be, they could not possibly overcome Israel’s unwillingness to go back down that particular rabbit hole.

    During the February 8, 2008 conversation mentioned above, Obama said, “If we cannot have an honest dialogue about how do we achieve these goals, then we’re not going to make progress.” In a way, Obama got his honest dialogue with the Israelis, but he didn’t want to hear what they had to say. This failure is entirely his own. Perhaps he thought that his closeness to aides like Rahm Emanuel gave him some special understanding of the Israeli mentality. Perhaps all those years hanging out with Rashid Khalidi and Jeremiah Wright blinded him to the possibility that Israel is not an all-powerful military juggernaut, but a small country deeply apprehensive about its future. Perhaps he thought that Israelis would be as enraptured with him as the 78% of American Jews who gave him their votes. Perhaps he simply wasn’t interested or didn’t care. In the end, this kind of speculation is irrelevant. Obama has lost the Israelis, possibly for good, and he has no one to blame but himself.

    This speaks to the second reason for Obama’s failure in the Middle East. Ironically, it was illustrated quite well by Rahm Emanuel in a September 25 article in Haaretz, the day after the Obama-hosted Abbas-Netanyahu summit. “Both Israel and the Palestinians must ’seize an opportunity,’” Haaretz quoted Emanuel, “because they are faced with ‘a unique moment in time in the region.’” Obama’s chief of staff went on to claim that this was because of the strength of the Israeli and Palestinian governments, a claim that is somewhat untrue of the former and entirely of the latter; which simply emphasizes the fact that there is nothing particularly unique about this moment; and there is certainly nothing particularly auspicious about it. Abbas is weak and largely discredited among his own people. Hamas is still dedicated to Israel’s destruction and still firmly in control of Gaza. If free elections were held in the West Bank, Hamas would have a good chance of winning them. Hezbollah is gearing up for another war in the north. The reaction to the Gaza operation had solidified Israel’s total lack of faith in the goodwill of the international community. And over it all, the Iranian theocracy is still pursuing nuclear weapons, and has shown itself perfectly willing to do so over the dead bodies of its own people. It is a fool’s game to try and predict the future in the Middle East, and Obama may find a way to resurrect his failed policies, or events may suddenly turn in his favor; but at the moment, the situation here is largely as it has always been: dangerous, unstable, and unforgiving.

    However Emanuel may try to spin it, his (and we must presume Obama’s) conviction that, against all available evidence, the Middle East is now in an unprecedented position to achieve peace is the kind of wishful thinking that has typified Obama and his advisors since his candidacy began. Put simply, they really do believe that Obama is a transcendent leader whose emergence represents a change in the workings of human history itself. By simply being, President Obama changes the world. The problem with this is not just that it is absurd, which it is, but that it leads to perhaps the worst delusion that a politician can suffer from: The refusal to acknowledge that the world is neither bad nor good, but simply indifferent. It does not care about what we want it to be or what we think it should be. The world is stubborn. It resists change. And when it does change, it only through the same processes that made it what it is: The slow, often agonizing accumulation of tiny adjustments, often painfully achieved, with results that are always unsatisfying.

    In other parts of the world, a persistent refusal to accept this is not necessary an immediate problem. In places like the United Nations, it is positively an asset. But in the Middle East, indeed anywhere brute realities are inescapable and the willingness to acknowledge and deal with them literally a matter of life and death, it takes its toll very quickly. Israelis have been broken by the world more than a few times, and as a result, they have become strong at the broken places. As Hemingway pointed out, however, “those that will not break it kills.” Judging by the degree to which a fervent belief in its own transcendent capacity to effortlessly change the world has typified the Obama phenomenon from its origins, and the results this has had in the Middle East, there seems to be a strong possibility that, in the end, his administration may well be counted among the casualties.

    Benjamin Kerstein is Senior Writer for The New Ledger

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Preventing this is not, as is commonly asserted, the monies paid to Israel by America, but the long held belief that should war of any large scale occur, then the US would step in to support Israel.

    All that is required is an attitude of ambivalence, such as that currently portrayed by the Obama administration, an indication that support is not automatic, and the threat becomes very serious, and very real indeed.
    Personally, if the democrats hold the houses and the presidency through the next election cycles, I give Israel no more than 10 - 15 years.
    I just hope my government will be willing to take the survivors.
    If that is the case, then Israel better open the gates now to the barbarians because relying on the US without a formal alliance is the most idiotic thing on earth to do.

    Even a formal alliance is tough enough (Taiwan, Vietnam) but to rely on a nudge, nudge, wink, wink?
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    If that is the case, then Israel better open the gates now to the barbarians because relying on the US without a formal alliance is the most idiotic thing on earth to do.

    Even a formal alliance is tough enough (Taiwan, Vietnam) but to rely on a nudge, nudge, wink, wink?
    Particularly, when we happen to have a president that is hell bent on apoligies for America. Where as we as Americans feel we have zero to apoligize for in this instance.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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    pari,

    Personally, if the democrats hold the houses and the presidency through the next election cycles, I give Israel no more than 10 - 15 years.
    israel survived from 1948-1973.

    taiwan has survived thirty+ years despite a FORMAL US policy of ambivalence.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    pari,



    israel survived from 1948-1973.
    By the skin of their teeth, against an enemy that is now far more savvy in exploiting Israels weaknesses. Isreal needs to only loose once.
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    taiwan has survived thirty+ years despite a FORMAL US policy of ambivalence.
    Until recently, China has been unable to reach Taiwan.

  14. #74
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    And THIS President, in particular, and in striking contrast, is giving our allies rasons to wonder about us, and giving our enemies reasons to test us.

    He's dangerous. To OUR side.
    tankie likes this.
    "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
    - George Orwell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    By the skin of their teeth, against an enemy that is now far more savvy in exploiting Israels weaknesses. Isreal needs to only loose once.
    It already "lost," to some degree, the last time it went into Lebanon, but I get what you're saying. Do you really think Israel faces a conventional threat these days, though? I can't see the nations that attacked it in the past doing so again.

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