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Thread: Turkey objects to Obama's message on Armenian massacres

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    Turkey objects to Obama's message on Armenian massacres

    Turkey objects to Obama's message on Armenian massacres
    1 day ago

    ANKARA (AFP) — Turkey objected Saturday to US President Barack Obama's statement on the Ottoman-era mass killings of Armenians, claiming it was an unbalanced view of history and ignored the suffering of Turks.

    "We consider some expressions in (Obama's) statement and the perception of history it contains concerning the events of 1915 as unacceptable," the Turkish foreign ministry said in a statement.

    In Obama's message to mark April 24, the date on which Armenians remember the killings, he refrained from using the word "genocide" despite a campaign promise to do so.

    He instead used the Armenian term "Meds Yeghern" which has been variously translated as "The Great Calamity" or "Great Disaster". The term predates the use of the word "genocide" but is sometimes used by Armenians to refer to the killings.

    The Turkish ministry statement said that Obama's message had failed to mention the "several hundreds of thousands of Turks" killed in fighting between Turks and Armenians during those years.

    "Common history of the Turkish and Armenian nations has to be assessed solely through impartial and scientific data, and historians must base their evaluations only on such material," it added.

    Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned that political meddling would not help a tentative dialogue between Ankara and Yerevan to mend ties poisoned by their common bloody history.

    "This message does not satify us," Erdogan was quoted by the Anatolia news agency as telling reporters in Istanbul. "Everyone must avoid statements that would overshadow the normalisation process."

    Armenians say 1.5 million of their people were victims of systematic killings from 1915 and many countries, including France and Canada, have officially recognised the killings as such.

    Turkey categorically rejects the genocide label and argues that 300,000-500,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when Armenians took up arms in eastern Anatolia and sided with invading Russian troops.

    "There are hundreds of thousands of Turks and Muslim who lost their lives in 1915. Everyone's pain must be shared," Turkish President Abdullah Gul said in televised remarks to reporters on the sidelines of a gas summit in Sofia.

    Stressing that history is best left up to historians, Gul said: "Now is the time to look forward and... give diplomacy a chance."

    Earlier this week, Turkey announced that it had agreed on a roadmap with Armenia to normalise relations in reconciliation talks mediated by Switzerland and held away from the public eye.

    Gul said intense efforts were also under way to resolve the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan over Nagorny-Karabakh, an Armenian-majority enclave which broke away from Baku in the early 1990s -- a problem that has bearing on Turkish-Armenian relations.

    Although Turkey was one of the first countries to recognise Armenia when it gained independence in 1991, Ankara has refused to establish diplomatic ties with Yerevan because of its international campaign to have the killings acknowledged as genocide.

    In 1993, Turkey also shut its border with Armenia in a show of solidarity with close ally Azerbaijan regarding its conflict with Yerevan over the Nagorny Karabakh enclave.

    Azerbaijan on Thursday urged Turkey to link reconciliation efforts with Armenia to the withdrawal of Armenian forces from Nagorny Karabakh.

    Earlier this month, Erdogan ruled out a deal with Armenia unless Yerevan resolved its conflict with Baku.

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    ANKARA (AFP) — Turkey objected Saturday to US President Barack Obama's statement on the Ottoman-era mass killings of Armenians, claiming it was an unbalanced view of history and ignored the suffering of Turks.

    .......

    The Turkish ministry statement said that Obama's message had failed to mention the "several hundreds of thousands of Turks" killed in fighting between Turks and Armenians during those years
    It was an unbalanced view of history, too bad we don't have lobby in Washington!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    It was an unbalanced view of history, too bad we don't have lobby in Washington!!
    You've got one, thats why he didn't utter the word genocide.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Yet another campaign promise broken by Obama.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Yet another campaign promise broken by Obama.
    Too bad he can't resist the urge to wade into every dang issue.....
    for heaven's sake he should learn the words...."no comment"
    After all there is nothing we can do to change something that happened around the turn of the century....so why even make it an issue??

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    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert W View Post
    Too bad he can't resist the urge to wade into every dang issue.....
    for heaven's sake he should learn the words...."no comment"
    After all there is nothing we can do to change something that happened around the turn of the century....so why even make it an issue??
    Because a country that is trying to get into the EU and is using the US as its main supporter wont even admit to a genocide that the rest of Europe and the world has accepted as having happened... case closed.

    Its not like Europe or Armenia are going to expect reparations or anything. In WW2 many Germans where killed by the Allies, in fact more Germans died than from any country bar Russia yet after the war the Germans admitted fault without condition. Europe wasnt anywhere near as nasty about it as it could have been and 50 years later Germany was the powerhouse of Europe again.

    Turkey knows just how touchy Europe is on human rights matters yet it seems to be making every effort to make it as difficult for itself as possible to gain entry in the EU rather than kissing ass and hoping to god the Europeans allow it considering a)its poor b)its not really a true democracy as the military has a record of coups c) its a massive Muslim dominated country looking to join a Christian dominated union and d) its not even European.

    You would think they would just admit it and move on...
    The best part of repentance is the sin

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    That's one thing I admire about the Germans. They have the balls to admit wrong-doing.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    its not even European.
    What's European?

    Seriously.

    Kind of silly to bash Turkey, a staunch ally, over stuff the Ottomans did almost one hundred years ago to win over a couple of voters, silly to that the modern Republic of Turkey doesn't just say shit happened 94 years ago. Silly still that Armenia illegally occupies Azeri territory.
    Last edited by troung; 28 Apr 09, at 18:44.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    Because a country that is trying to get into the EU and is using the US as its main supporter wont even admit to a genocide that the rest of Europe and the world has accepted as having happened... case closed.
    None of the USA's business....happend nearly 100 years ago leave it to the EU....their "club" they can pick the members.
    We have plenty of other "things" on our plate....

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    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert W View Post
    None of the USA's business....happend nearly 100 years ago leave it to the EU....their "club" they can pick the members.
    We have plenty of other "things" on our plate....
    I agree with you completelly on that one. The problem is the US has been the one pushing Turkeys entry to the EU and Turkey has been seeking US support for its membership once it hit a brick wall with the Europeans.

    I believe the US has no place at all in pushing countries applications into organisations it doesnt even belong to. Its a damn patronising way to deal with your European allies.
    The best part of repentance is the sin

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    Quote Originally Posted by chakos View Post
    I agree with you completelly on that one. The problem is the US has been the one pushing Turkeys entry to the EU and Turkey has been seeking US support for its membership once it hit a brick wall with the Europeans.

    I believe the US has no place at all in pushing countries applications into organisations it doesnt even belong to. Its a damn patronising way to deal with your European allies.
    I couldn't agree more...

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    FreeGeneral Senior Contributor Big K's Avatar
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    who wants to enter EU?

    they have NOTHING but double standards.

    people do not really want to enter EU. Infact personally i am against it as many Turks do.

    a staunch ally? personally i dont want to be one anymore because being an "ally" gave nothing but economic slavery to Turkey.

    and about the "balls". before speaking of "balls" one should give at least one chance to even imagining to look at it from the other side, i mean the other club.

    i thought being a WABBER must give a wider point of view. Being accepted by "all EU" means nothing if one consider the EU's double standardisations and political interests.

    and if we still compare the events of 1915 with the WW2..well i have nothing to say anymore.

    You've got one, thats why he didn't utter the word genocide.
    no it is not lobbying.

    EU needs an alternative energy highway. Only way besides Iran is this.

    So from thats why US "suddenly" started to arbitrating between Armenia&Turkey.

    this is a part of the operation "salvation!? of Armenia from Russian influence"
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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    Slate Magazine
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    Ankara Shows Its Hand
    Turkey's scheming at the Strasbourg summit proves it doesn't belong in the European Union.

    By Christopher Hitchens
    Posted Monday, April 20, 2009, at 11:54 AM ET


    The most underreported story of the month must surely be the announcement by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner that he no longer supports the accession of Turkey as a full member of the European Union. His reasoning was very simple and intelligible, and it has huge implications for the Barack Obama "make nice" school of diplomacy.

    At a NATO summit in Strasbourg in the first week of April, it had been considered a formality that the alliance would vote to confirm Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the prime minister of Denmark, as its new secretary-general. But very suddenly, the Turkish delegation threatened to veto the appointment. The grounds of Turkey's opposition were highly significant. Most important, they had to do with the publication of some cartoons in a Danish newspaper in 2005 lampooning the Prophet Mohammed. In spite of an organized campaign of violence and boycott against his country, and in spite of a demand by a delegation of ambassadors from supposedly "Islamic" states, Rasmussen consistently maintained that Danish law did not allow him to interfere with the Danish press. Years later, resentment at this position led Turkey—which is under its own constitution not an "Islamic" country—to use the occasion of a NATO meeting to try again to interfere with the internal affairs of a member state.

    The second ground of Turkey's objection is also worth noting. From Danish soil a TV station broadcasts in the Kurdish language to Kurds in Turkey and elsewhere. The government in Ankara, which evidently believes that all European governments are as untrammeled as itself, brusquely insists that Denmark do what it would do and simply shut the transmitter down. Once again unclear on the concepts of the open society and the rule of law—if the station is sympathetic to terrorism, as Ankara alleges, there are procedures to be followed—the Turkish authorities attempt a fiat that simply demands that others do as they say.

    The implications of all this, as Kouchner stated in an interview, are extremely serious. "I was very shocked by the pressure that was brought upon us," he said. "Turkey's evolution in, let's say, a more religious direction, towards a less robust secularism, worries me." This is to put it in the mildest possible way. It's not just a matter of a Turkish political party undermining Turkey's own historic secularism. It is a question of Turkey trying to impose its Islamist and chauvinist policies on another European state—and indeed on the whole NATO alliance. And if this is how it behaves before it has been admitted to the European Union, has it not invited us all to guess how it would behave when it had a veto power in those councils?

    For contrast, one might mention the example of reunited federal Germany, easily the strongest economic power in the European Union, which painstakingly adjusted itself to its neighbors—to the extent of giving up even the deutsche mark for the euro—and adopted the slogan "not a Germanized Europe but a Europeanized Germany." With Turkey, it seems the reverse is the case. Its troops already occupy one-third of the territory of an EU member (Cyprus), and now it exploits its NATO membership to try to bully one of the smaller nations with which it is supposed to be conjoined in a common defense. For good measure, it continues to be ambiguous about its recognition of the existence of another non-Turkish people—the Kurds—within its frontiers.

    President Obama's emollient gifts were on display at the NATO summit, where he eventually persuaded the Turks to withhold their veto on the appointment of Prime Minister Rasmussen. Accounts differ as to the price of this deal, but a number of plum jobs and positions now appear to have been awarded to Turkish nominees. Much more important, however, the foreign minister of France has reversed his previous position and has now said: "It's not for the Americans to decide who comes into Europe or not. We are in charge in our own house." Put it like this: Obama's "quiet diplomacy" has temporarily conciliated the Turks while perhaps permanently alienating the French and has made it more, rather than less, likely that the American goal of Turkish EU membership will now never be reached. And this is the administration that staked so much on the idea of renewing our credit on the other side of the Atlantic. This evidently can't be done by sweetness alone.

    On the question of Turkey's accession, I used to be able to make either case. Admitting the Turks could lead to the modernization of the country, whereas exclusion could breed resentment and instability and even a renewal of pseudo-Ataturkist military rule. On the other hand, admission would put the frontiers of Europe up against Iran and Iraq and the volatile Caucasus, so that instead of being a "bridge" between East and West (to use the unvarying cliché), Turkey would become a tunnel.

    The Strasbourg crisis clarifies the entire picture and should make us grateful to have been warned in such a timely fashion. Turkey wants all the privileges of NATO and EU membership but also wishes to continue occupying Cyprus, denying Kurdish rights, and lying about the Armenian genocide. On top of this, it now desires to act as a proxy for Islamization and dares to waste the time of a defensive alliance in trying to censor the press of another member state! Kouchner was quite right to speak out as he did, and the Turkish authorities will now be able to blame the failure of their membership scheme not on the unsleeping plots of their enemies, but on the belated awakening of their former friends.
    Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the Roger S. Mertz media fellow at the Hoover Institution in Stanford, Calif.

    Article URL: Turkey's scheming in Strasbourg shows it doesn't belong in the European Union. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine

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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    What's European?

    Seriously.

    Kind of silly to bash Turkey, a staunch ally, over stuff the Ottomans did almost one hundred years ago to win over a couple of voters, silly to that the modern Republic of Turkey doesn't just say shit happened 94 years ago. Silly still that Armenia illegally occupies Azeri territory.
    This is not about bashing, this is about honesty, accept history and move on. And yes as others have said Germany is a great example to follow.

    About Nagorno-Karabakh here is a quote below, but you may want to read the whole article, things are not so black and white, and talking about occupying others land, how about Cyprus.

    "Nearing the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1989, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast boasted a population of 145,593 Armenians (76.4%), 42,871 Azerbaijanis (22.4%),[66] and several thousand Kurds, Russians, Greeks, and Assyrians. "

    Nagorno-Karabakh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Ive repeated this over and over again and finally my position is being justified on the international stage for all to see. Turkey cannot possibly be part of the EU as it is not a European country to begin with, it is too poor, it is too Islamic and its idea of free speech/human rights and free society are completelly at odds with what the European standard is. For god sakes there is still a law on the books (that is activelly persued) that makes it illigal to 'insult Turkishness'

    Turkey may be moderate compared to other Middle Eastern countries and quite possibly its leadership role lays there but it most definatelly doesnt have the cultural fit to be part of Europe. It is a split state, the armed forces try their best to keep it secular but Turkey is slowly getting Islamicised and its only a matter of time before this split in Turkish society tears the country apart. When that happens i would much rather it not be an EU member state.

    I think the EU's borders need to be culturally distinct, meaning that the culture on the EU side of the border be different to the culture on the other. Not following that path causes uncertainty and stress in the region. We are seeing it in central Europe where Orthodox Ukranians from the East live in a country that is controlled effectivelly by the Catholic pro EU/NATO West. The Eastern Ukranians share more in common with the Russians just across the border than the Western Catholics, the French or the Italians. A situation like that causes a very porous and dangerous border liable to explode with ethnic unrest at any time.

    In regards to South Eastern Europe, Greece, Bulgaria and the former Yugoslav states have always formed Europes buffer against the distinctly different cultures of the Middle East and that is where i believe the borders of the EU should lay otherwise it risks taking too big a bite of the apple and ending up with a lot more than it can chew.
    The best part of repentance is the sin

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