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Reply With QuoteThat's one of the reasons people drink alcohol as well.Originally Posted by Optimus
Oh, sociocultural boundaries...
Yet there are problems with teenage drug use and they are not getting smaller.
That's one of the reasons people drink alcohol as well.
Oh, sociocultural boundaries...
Alcohol has been specifically made and refined over the years to suit peoples taste. Over here we had shops legally selling party pills ( which are nothing more than boosted animal worming tablets) to teenagers so they can feel exhilarated.
There must be something seriously wrong in our thought processes, if we think we can control under aged drinking, by allowing the selling of this stuff, for human consumption. Its the first step on the slippery slope of drug taking, and its social acceptance.
Social acceptance brings forth responsible behaviour.
We don't have American binge drinking. We just don't.
But we will have it if we enforce American laws.
It's just that morality always gets in the way.
Don't know enough about the cultural drinking habits of Americans to comment, but in NZ Australia binge drinking arose from 6 o clock closing. With extended hours and a move away from booze barns we are adapting towards a more mature and sophisticated way of drinking, as in Europe where I have noticed that even young children are introduced to wine in evening meals.
Getting back to recreational drugs though, we have a scenario where role models such as sports figures and other such like,to and impressionable age group are slapped with a wet bus ticket, when caught.Some even continue to host high profile TV programs, so what message is society conveying to our young?
Not in our country lowering the drinking age has seen a upswing of 12-16yr olds becoming seriously hardened drinkers.Or see the drunken louts carrying on (trashing property) after 4-5am closing.
I'll come back to this thread about drug wars to make a crucial observation.
However much we dislike legalizing addictive drugs, the bottom line is that if they remain illegal, there is no way these global drug wars can be won.
And as I don't see the possibility of drugs being legalized globally, I am pessimistic about seeing the end of these global drug wars.
Last edited by Merlin; 25 Mar 09, at 16:52.
This is a very small step towards legalising addictive drugs at the US, on medical marijuana.
More states move toward allowing medical marijuana use
8 hrs ago. [USAToday] Some states are moving to legalize the use of marijuana for medical purposes in response to the Obama administration's decision to limit prosecutions of sick people or caregivers who use or dispense the drug.
Attorney General Eric Holder said last week that his agents will seek criminal charges only when both state and U.S. laws are violated. That signaled a shift from the Bush administration, whose agents raided several centers that dispense marijuana in California, where state law permits its medical use. Twelve other states also allow medical marijuana, but U.S. law prohibits its use for any reason.
"The change in the federal government's attitude ... speaks volumes," says New Hampshire state Rep. Evalyn Merrick, a Democrat. She is the author of a bill that would legalize medicinal use of marijuana if approved by a doctor. It passed the state House on Wednesday, 234-138.
Merrick, a cancer survivor who once got relief from nausea by smoking pot, pushed a similar bill three years ago, but it failed. This year it is getting a warmer reception, and now heads to the Senate.
Holder's announcement boosts state proposals for changing marijuana laws, says Bill Piper, national affairs director for the Drug Policy Alliance, which advocates legalizing marijua ...
Agreed about binge drinking. A drinking culture has to arise first.
We have no gun culture, Americans have no drinking culture. Sad but true.
The thing in England is that pubs that close early force youngsters outside, making them acting rowdy and trashing stuff.
As for drugs on tv?
That is the breakdown of bourgeois morality, my friend
The more, the better. Time to stop thinking in circles.
It is time for a change in this war cry policy and rhetoric.
US drug czar calls for end to “war on drugs” rhetoric
US drug policy has been criticized for focusing too much on fighting supplies
12 June [Reuters] WASHINGTON. The Obama administration's top drug cop plans to spend more money treating addiction and scale down the "war on drugs" rhetoric as part of an overhaul of US counternarcotics strategy.
As head of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, Gil Kerlikowske coordinates the efforts of 32 government agencies to limit illicit drug use.
He has been in office less than a month, but the Obama administration has already taken a less confrontational approach to the nation's 35 million illegal drug users.
The FBI is no longer raiding state-approved facilities that distribute marijuana for medical purposes, and the House has told Congress to eliminate the sentencing disparity between powder and crack cocaine.
Kerlikowske said he hopes to ditch the chest-thumping military rhetoric at the center of US policy since President Nixon first declared a "war on drugs" 40 years ago.
"We should stop using the metaphor about the war on drugs," said Kerlikowske, a career police officer who headed the Justice Department's community-policing initiative under President Clinton. "People look at it as a war on them, and frankly we're not at war with the people of this country."
US drug policy has been criticized for focusing too much on fighting supplies from Colombia and other countries in South America and not enough on curbing demand at home, the world's largest drug market. Kerlikowske said a more balanced approach was needed, with greater emphasis on treatment programs, especially in prisons.
"It's clear that if they go to prison and they have a drug problem and you don't treat it and they return.. to the same neighborhood from whence they came that you are going to have the same problem," he said. "Quite frankly people in neighborhoods, police officers, et cetera, are tired of recycling the problem. Let's try and fix it." ....
Every time this topic comes up (frequently) I think of the days in the U.S., and also the world, of about 100 years ago, when there really was no such thing as a prescription, marijuana grew wild or was harvested for hemp, and just about any substance imaginable was available. You could buy products like "Dr. Smith's Soothing Syrup" which was essentially liquid opium.
The drug laws we have on the book date from the beginning of the 1900's. Thoughts... yes there were addicts then too. But somehow the country did fine, and in fact, thrived and grew economically. The neighbor lady who was into Mr. Smiths Syrup a bit too much was also doing decently well, because her supply was legal and steady. She did not have to whore herself out to get her next fix, for example. Most people either ignored it or felt a sort of pity, but life went on and it was fine.
The violence, smuggling, and jail time for substance abuse came about after laws like the Harrison Narcotic act in 1914, not before. I'm having a hard time believing that there isn't a cause and effect relationship here.
For those that freak out at the thought of legalization... they were ALL legal up until about 1914.
Long time lurker on the subject first time poster on it.
I have some things that have made me think about it. I think I have a reasonable view on the matter, that being said. I don't see the knee jerk reaction helping, the problem will always remain.
BAN ANYONE selling the stuff on the street. Be 'tough on it', litterally, lock them up in a cold cell.
PRESCRIBE IT. I.E if you can pass a medico examination for the consumption of it. Prescribe it on a scaler quantity. Make it dirt cheap but be stingy on the per month subscription. People will always buy it to sell it I beleive. This will always be a problem. But it will make it hard to make a profit out of it. At least it can be regulated it.
I don't really subscribe to the 'good drug, bad drug' reality. Alcohol is a drug, and it makes idiots. I've worked on some pretty nasty doors in my life with some pretty intimidating patrons and a few fights. The hairiest of the situations I was in, wasn't some guy on meth - I'll get to that shortly, it was some guy smoking weed. Yep, only weed. Good old relaxitive weed. This particular guy, took exception to the fact that there was this girl on license premisis that was sweating profusely and pretty spaced out. Naturally I had to ascertain what had happened. This guy took exception to the fact that I had asked her about a personal life choice she had made ie I asked her point blank if she had taken anything and how much she had (might need an abulance), and decided to give me lip. Whilst his friend tried to calm him down. I told him per the book, finish up because I can't let this happen on licensed premisis. When he refused, I took his drink away from him, by which time his mate had decided to jump me from behind. All said and done I got some sore fingers over it, down with some knees to my gaurd. I got back up and they ran... like pussies. Now these guys were wankers, I put the oldest one at about 23 years old. High on life and thier god given right.
You know when a guy is on meth. You have got to overcome 9 minutes of adrenalin, and you have the perogative in any court of law to use maximum reasonable force. You know whats going, you can prepare for that in your training. Sure it makes your heart pump and hope that they arn't carrying anything, but you can see them comming a mile away.
Guys on speed or coke, especially on a night out with thier mates, cause the most fights over their machoistic view of life and they collide with each others ego. But again, you see these guys comming, thier behaviour is obvious in their enthusiasm for the night. The antics, you can meet & greet them and establish a working relationship with them when they start getting out of control. It happens.
A lot of my nights were not only spent doing standard checks, invariably their physical appearance, their ID, and the associated boredom, it was trying to keep track of events as they occur in the club / bar. The Drugs problem make that invariably worse. The Guy on Meth / Ice you could readily keep away. But the others might collide with a drunk, an upper, or a downer, guys that pretend to be normal, actually arn't. Looking after girls who had got spiked / fantasy and making sure they weren't going anywhere I.E finding a friend, whoose ID I could take, whilst doing all the other things, a whole multitude.
I don't think really that anyone can predict what will stop the problem. The problem will always exist. My corner was the worst in the city, with a few stabbings there during my time and a few 'render assistance' to people about to be bottled.
What I find is that drugs, any drugs, cause problems & yes that does include alcohol. People wanting to do something on thier night out cause problems, the hardest ones for me to spot were the ones that appeared OK but weren't. It didn't take me long before I began to despise the bouncer terminology. I preferred Doorman & began to dress like one, then Peacekeeper... etc. Social drugs or not. People that take them, go home and measure whether anything bad happened that night. I go home and think the world has gone to hell because of that many extra tabs to keep. The dealers add to the stress proportionately. It's them I found the diplomacy worked. "Im not here to stop you, because I havn't seen you, but I'm not stupid guys, you want to do it, do it elsewhere, you are creating too many tabs for me to keep". But they want to make a profit, you are a hindrance to them.
At the end of the Day the two worst circumstances I have ever been in: Was those two on pot. And an confrontation between a stupid drunk bogan who was giving this Kiwi (I'm pretty big, but this guy was looking like a 7 Foot Maori, and arms as big as your legs) And this stupid Aussie was giving him lip. They were 1 Meter from Each other and I was in between them. I didn't see them comming. The others I saw developing. There's been a few others, that I was going to get Stabbed, 4 on 1, oozing for a fight, but - you saw them comming...
It's one great big establishment of the social pecking order, ranked by how many people are on drugs & those that have enough observation to see whats happening. This is my reality of soft & hard drugs. Yeah, the guy on Ice/meth is likely to explode - thats not the problem though. So in that sence, sure, ban it, choose the battles you enter from a rule of law perspective.
But the social drug is a whole cocktail & a nightmare to manage. So, I think that the 'for legalising' it crowd is shooting at the 200 Meter Target with a pistol... Make them see a GP. Go through the prescription process, Give them a quota perhaps. Install some sence of responsible drug taking. (if you could call it that, but it seems better than what it is worse.) CUT the lunch of the dealers, because it's not true that drug takers are 7 day a week addicts and plenty seem to have a sence of moderation... if you could call it that... Thee will still be an illegal market, but one which is a lot less profitable. Apart from the king pins and distributors, the peddlers do it because of the price it gets.
From a managing people perspective though currently it is nie impossible to keep tabs, and thats what matters. Many users are simply inconsiderate in their whole consumerism attitude. If people could show me a prescription I could readily ascertain whether their behaviour matched that prescription. Right now because it's illegal & peoples whole attitude is completely altered by the fact they know it is illegal. They are defensive & combative.
I've since left, It was only a second job @ present I'm on break. Since leaving that place had had 6 people go through that couldn't take it. The stress is too great. I've been offered & asked to go back there on private, better pay. I don't think I will, not enough surviellance, the girls are too busy behind the bar & the DJ's are DJ's. If I could have a portable video with zoom I could do better, but it would just get smashed in a scuffle or restraint.
Anyhow, my useless 2c on the matter.
Edit... I don't think I really do the topic justice because there are a lot of other examples on this existant 'cocktail' I could give... that could open up other areas of discussion on the matter. But have built up good working relationships and attachments to the people I have worked for because of the problems. Very strong affinity towards them because of these problems that we have. It was a pretty tough decision in the end, because your the front pleb of it all, if anything happens, it's You, and the girls with the sambucca bottles. Is the replacement right to give the girls service, including being able to have a working relationship and friendship. You can't do that with 6 guys is as many months.
Last edited by Chunder; 13 Jun 09, at 17:50.
The Opium Wars would suggest otherwise.
Chimo
Sir, the Opium Wars confirm it, and I am willing to discuss them; but as a comparison: we can see that opium was legal in India in the same time period, with no trouble associated at all.
I would not suggest that there was no trouble with opium India at the time but like Afghanistan today, it was a cash crop and addicts cannot do harvest.
Chimo
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