Drug Wars & How Best to Tackle Them

**Castellano** · 23 Jun 09,, 17:01

Originally Posted by Chogy

With respect, MDMA, or ecstacy (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine) is different from methamphetamine, (2S)-N-methyl-1-phenyl-propan-2-amine). They are both considered drugs of the phenethylamine class, but functionally they are different.

The Shulgins, chemists capable of synthesizing a wide variety of phenethylamines, explored both in their book PIHKAL (Phenethylmines I have Known and Loved). Alex Shulgin is a brave and somewhat whacky individual who synthesized hundreds of these compounds, and tried them all, the vast majority with little effect, but both MDMA and meth are notable for their effects.

With chemistry, subtle alterations of functional groups make profound differences in how they act on the brain. Codeine is not far from morphine chemically, but we all know codeine is markedly less powerful and euphoric.

I'm fairly certain meth is far more destructive from an addiction and harm standpoint that ecstacy. One of the more obvious signs of meth abuse is the fact that teeth are rotten or simply gone, due to the user grinding them viciously; their jaws are clenched and tight. Sadly, meth is on the rise and easily produced, moreso than X I believe.

Several things:

- There is absolutely no way to get addicted to any phenethylamines, if the term "addiction" is to have any meaning. And anybody who says otherwise is simply lying. A scenario of compulsive use, which can happen, I suppose, is not "addiction". Those substances themselves and the way they affect the human body on a chemical level prevent any possibility of addiction - among other things because of the so called tolerance. On top of that, even if on a chemical level it could be possible to get addicted, which I insist is not possible, one would have to be completely out of his mind to get "addicted" to something like XTC. It is almost, not quite, but almost as ridiculous as saying you are addicted LSD. It simply makes no sense.

- There are hundreds of phenethylamines, MDMA and Meth included, and they all belong to the same functional group: for lack of a better term I would call them "empathizers" - which brings me to a truly important point

- According to the ridiculous legislation that deals with drugs, there seems to be "hard" and "soft" drugs. And then there are things like Alcohol, Nicotine, Tea or Coffee, which, for no discernible reason, happen to be legal these days (but in XIX century Russia for example, you could get an ear severed if caught drinking coffee!)

This is completely preposterous. It has about the same scientific predicament is as if water was classified in "heavy" "mineral" and "from the tab".

In reality, there are three basic kinds of drugs, and the criteria to classify them is the effect on the human conscience:

Peace drugs: such as Opium and its derivatives, Alcohol, Chloroform, Fentanils, Benzodiacepines (all those that end with -lam - lan), Neuroleptics, or many other narcotics among which there are some which are more addictive and way more toxic than Heroine, but are legal.

Energy drugs: Such as Cocaine, Amphetamines, Tea or Coffee

Psiquedelic drugs: Such as Cannabis (THC), LSD, DMT or Psilocybin and many, many others.

Phenethylamines, while you could say they are from the psychedelic group, I think because the way they affect on an emotional level, could be a new group of their own. As is 2C-B (also synthesized by Alexander Shulgin)

In short: the "hard" and "soft" drugs thing is a complete joke. And it is just incredible that based on such clumsy criteria people actually end up in jail.

**Castellano** · 23 Jun 09,, 17:30

So these are the real groups of drugs.

Now, taking two drugs from the same group, I challenge anybody to explain the reasons why coffee should be legal and cocaine should be illegal.

Or from another group of drugs: why are Haroperidol (butyrophenone) or Buprenorphine legal, and Heroine is illegal?

**JAD_333** · 24 Jun 09,, 00:18

Originally Posted by Castellano

This comment is OUTSTANDING.

Thank you, my friend.

**zraver** · 24 Jun 09,, 00:47

Originally Posted by Castellano

Several things:

- There is absolutely no way to get addicted to any phenethylamines, if the term "addiction" is to have any meaning. And anybody who says otherwise is simply lying. A scenario of compulsive use, which can happen, I suppose, is not "addiction". Those substances themselves and the way they affect the human body on a chemical level prevent any possibility of addiction - among other things because of the so called tolerance. On top of that, even if on a chemical level it could be possible to get addicted, which I insist is not possible, one would have to be completely out of his mind to get "addicted" to something like XTC. It is almost, not quite, but almost as ridiculous as saying you are addicted LSD. It simply makes no sense.

Been addicted to both (X, LSD). Its rare, exceedingly so. But a psychic compulsion to use is no less powerful that a physical one. Addiction is not the just the chemical itself, but can also be the chemical release an activity prompts. This is why non- external chemical activities can be just as addicting as heroin. Sex, shopping, gambling, stealing all cause a chemical reaction in the brain that can be addicting. Same goes for otherwise non-addicting chemicals added t the body. The the chemical reactions they prompt can lead to addiction.

being abnormally tolerant to and dependent on something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming (especially alcohol or narcotic drugs) wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

As for meth, you don't know what your talking about.

NIDA - Research Report Series - Methamphetamine Abuse and Addiction

I've had friends commit suicide to get away from it, others who can't stay out of prison and others murdered over it. Meth is a soul stealing bitch.

Phenethylamines, while you could say they are from the psychedelic group, I think because the way they affect on an emotional level, could be a new group of their own. As is 2C-B (also synthesized by Alexander Shulgin)

2CB is a rare but unusual drug. My trips on it were always by accident as it was passed off initially as mdma. It has all the feel good about yourself effects as X but none of the feel good about everyone else to that leads to loose lips and 1 night romances. Probably the most interesting part of the drug is the kaleidoscope effect. Afterimages from lights "tracers" can last an exceeding long time. I've wrapped myself in a cocoon of light on 2CB.

**JAD_333** · 24 Jun 09,, 01:24

Originally Posted by Castellano

So these are the real groups of drugs.

Now, taking two drugs from the same group, I challenge anybody to explain the reasons why coffee should be legal and cocaine should be illegal.

I am not a chemist or by any means an expert, but here's a possible explanation from the POV those who decide on legal vs illegal.

It may be that the answer has to to with the effect of cocaine on the opiate receptors in our nervous system. The receptors normally react to opiate-like substances produced in the body, like dopamine. This process controls the intensity and flow of messages throughout our nervous system, such as pain and pleasure, and a whole host of bodily functions.

I'll turn over the rest of this to something I found on the web and move on to coffee, or caffeine:

... GABA normally plays a braking role on the dopaminergic cells. Opiates and endogenous opioid neurotransmitters activate the presynaptic opioid receptors on GABA neurons.

This inhibits the release of GABA in the ventral tegmental area. Inhibiting GABA allows the dopaminergic neurons to fire more vigorously.

The release of extra dopamine in the nucleus accumbens is intensely pleasurable. The dopamine transporter responsible for its reuptake is blocked by cocaine. So cocaine allows more dopamine to accumulate in the synapses. Amphetamines act directly on the nerve endings and release extra dopamine too.

Chronic cocaine use causes a decrease in the production of enkephalin, one of the brain's natural opioids.

This in turn causes a compensatory increase in the number of mu-receptors. The number of unoccupied mu-receptors may be associated with the craving and abstinence syndrome.

The mu receptors are crucial to the rewarding and addictive properties of opioids. Mu-receptors are found mainly in the brainstem and the medial thalamus.

How Opiates Affect The Brain

The difference between cocaine with caffeine in terms of negative affect on the body is harder for me to pinpoint. As far as I can see caffeine is much weaker and does not provoke as powerful a response from the receptors.

One study done on mice pursued the idea that the downside of caffeine for a former cocaine user is that could reawaken a desire for cocaine.

Skip to the discussion segment of this study: Caffeine, Acting on Adenosine A1 Receptors, Prevents the Extinction of Cocaine-Seeking Behavior in Mice -- Kuzmin et al. 290 (2): 535 -- Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeutics

Or from another group of drugs: why are Haroperidol (butyrophenone) or Buprenorphine legal, and Heroine is illegal?

Heroin is more powerful?

**Blue** · 24 Jun 09,, 03:55

Originally Posted by Castellano

Now, taking two drugs from the same group, I challenge anybody to explain the reasons why coffee should be legal and cocaine should be illegal.

Ask any captain of industry. Its who you know, who you can buy, etc.....

You can sell any deadly thing if you have enough money to buy the political backing. Look at the pharmacuetical industry today. They know every new product will kill or screw up thousands but if it only kills 1000 and treats the symptoms( not cures mind you) of 100,000, then it is a friggin miracle drug!

**JAD_333** · 24 Jun 09,, 04:09

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Ask any captain of industry. Its who you know, who you can buy, etc.....

You can sell any deadly thing if you have enough money to buy the political backing. Look at the pharmacuetical industry today. They know every new product will kill or screw up thousands but if it only kills 1000 and treats the symptoms( not cures mind you) of 100,000, then it is a friggin miracle drug!

Let me get this straight. You think coffee is legal because someone is on the take. Otherwise this malicious brew would be fodder for the Coffee Czar and all the Starbucks in the nation would be padlocked.

)

**Blue** · 24 Jun 09,, 04:11

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Let me get this straight. You think coffee is legal because someone is on the take. Otherwise this malicious brew would be fodder for the Coffee Czar and all the Starbucks in the nation would be padlocked.

)

Well two things here. Men have killed and little mini-wars have been fought over coffee. Second, don't let Obama hear this or he will "create a new position" sure as hell!

**JAD_333** · 24 Jun 09,, 04:16

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Well two things here. Men have killed and little mini-wars have been fought over coffee. Second, don't let Obama hear this or he will "create a new position" sure as hell!

Let me go on record here. If everyone in the world had your good nature and conservative outlook, I'd be in heaven.

**Blue** · 24 Jun 09,, 04:41

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Let me go on record here. If everyone in the world had your good nature and conservative outlook, I'd be in heaven.

Why thank you JAD!! Now if everyone could see that as you, I would be in heaven!!

**JAD_333** · 24 Jun 09,, 04:55

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Why thank you JAD!! Now if everyone could see that as you, I would be in heaven!!

I can do a lot of things, but I'll won't be able to get the word out to everyone in time.

)

**Blue** · 24 Jun 09,, 05:19

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I can do a lot of things, but I'll won't be able to get the word out to everyone in time.

)

Well darn thier bad luck! We shall have to remain with content with what we have then.

**Merlin** · 24 Jun 09,, 07:28

Drug money is being used to influence or even control politics in Mexico.

Drugs mix with politics in Mexico

23 June [AFP] MEXICO CITY - Mexico's drug war is creeping into the mid-term elections here amid apprehensions that the country's drug cartels will use their money and clout to influence the outcome.

The fear that drug gangs are influencing politicians is widespread as Mexicans prepare to vote on July 5 for 500 lawmakers, six governors and 565 mayors, against a backdrop of brutal shootings, beheadings and torture.

More than 10,000 people have died in suspected drug violence since President Felipe Calderon launched a military crackdown on organized crime two and a half years ago.

Calderon's right-wing PAN party directly links the issue to its campaign, in the first such move in a country where drug gangs have been active for decades. ....

Some critics have also accused Calderon of engaging in a publicity stunt ahead of the elections with arrests of officials in the opposition-governed state of Michoacan for suspected cartel links.

After the crackdown last month, authorities charged seven mayors and 20 other officials for suspected links to the powerful La Familia drug cartel. ....

In the July vote, Calderon is seeking a renewed public mandate to continue his tough US-backed campaign during the second half of his presidency.

For now, the biggest opposition - the left-wing PRI which ruled Mexico for 71 years before losing to the PAN in 2000 - is slightly ahead in polls.

But the public, fed up with corrupt politicians and a battered economy as well as drug violence, is showing growing interest in a campaign calling for a protest vote against all the candidates.

If the PAN loses significantly to the PRI, Calderon will face greater opposition in congress, including against measures taken in his controversial drug war which has seen the deployment of 36,000 troops nationwide.

As attacks are once again on the rise, particularly in and around the northern border city of Ciudad Juarez - a key trafficking hub for the United States - fears are also rising about drug gang influence. ...

**Merlin** · 24 Jun 09,, 08:45

This is going to be signed into law in Mexico.

Mexico moves quietly to decriminalize minor drug use

President Calderon is set to sign the law, but some fear that letting off users caught with limited amounts of drugs will increase drug use and encourage 'drug tourists' from the U.S.

21 June [LATimes] Mexico City -- Could Mexican cities become Latin Amsterdams, flooded by drug users seeking penalty-free tokes and toots?

That is the fear, if somewhat overstated, of some Mexican officials, especially in northern border states that serve as a mecca for underage drinkers from the United States.

The anxiety stems from the Mexican legislature's quiet vote to decriminalize the possession of small amounts of marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine and other drugs, an effort that in the past proved controversial.

There's been less protest this time, in part because there hasn't been much publicity.

Some critics have suggested that easing the punishment for drug possession sends the wrong message while President Felipe Calderon is waging a bloody war against major narcotics traffickers. The battle between law enforcement authorities and drug suspects has claimed more than 11,000 lives since he took office in late 2006.

But it was Calderon who proposed the decriminalization legislation.

His reasoning: It makes sense to distinguish between small-time users and big-time dealers, while re-targeting major crime-fighting resources away from the consumers and toward the dealers and their drug lord bosses. ...

**Repatriated Canuck** · 24 Jun 09,, 13:22

Originally Posted by Castellano

. I don't understand somebody who said he was addicted to Meth (I assume he refers to the same thing)

I had access to MDMA in the heat of the mid 90s with the raves and the clubs. Also a few times later. But it never occurred to me or anybody I know to take it all the time, you just don't want to do that. At least you have to let a few days go by before taking it again. I was lucky to meet people with similar musical tastes. Amazing parties, great music, I was into techno since a tender age and for me the music was very important. Good memories of those times.

By the way MDMA (Methamphetamine) has nothing to do chemically with amphetamines, they only resemble in the name. I mention because I read a comment which related them and it's not true.

Methylenedioxymethamphetamine is what you refer to when you say MDMA. I do not I refer to Erowid Methamphetamine (Speed, Crank) Vault