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Thread: Schools allowed to ban face veils

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    Schools allowed to ban face veils

    Ever read an article and had that feeling , we are going to get bored with this?

    Interesting to note that the school nor the head teacher could be named, isnt that pityfull.Anyway article below.





    Schools allowed to ban face veils
    Schools will be able to ban pupils from wearing full-face veils on security, safety or learning grounds under new uniforms guidance set to be issued.
    In February, a 12-year-old girl failed in her High Court attempt to overturn her Buckinghamshire school's niqab ban.

    Ministers promised revised guidance for England taking that into consideration.

    It says efforts should be made to accommodate religious clothing but stresses the importance of teachers and pupils being able to make eye contact.


    We feel very strongly that this was a matter of principle that there shouldn't be barriers between students and teachers
    Head teacher
    Veil court case school


    The issue of religious dress has become an increasingly complicated one for schools in recent years, with a handful of high profile cases going to court.

    But it is the victory by the Buckinghamshire school, which cannot be named for legal reasons, that has prompted the updated guidance.

    The school argued the veil made communication between teachers and pupils difficult and thus hampered learning.

    Teachers needed to be able to tell if a pupil was enthusiastic, paying attention or even distressed but full-face veils prevented this, it said.

    This position was upheld by the High Court - which refused to grant a judicial review - and is expected to form a key part of the guidance.

    Guidance welcomed

    Schools need to be able to identify individual pupils in order to maintain good order and to identify intruders, it is expected to say.


    "If a pupil's face is obscured for any reason the teacher may not be able to judge their engagement with learning or secure their participation in discussions and practical activities," it adds.

    The head teacher of the Buckinghamshire school, who also cannot be named, said it would be very useful to have some clear guidance from the DfES.

    "It's not right that schools should have to be arguing this out case by case," she told the BBC News website.

    "Obviously there's a trade-off between schools retaining autonomy over school uniform decisions, on the other hand we will have some very clear guidance from the DfES within which to work."

    'Equality'

    She said she did not regret the school's decision to fight the case.

    "We feel very strongly that this was a matter of principle, that there shouldn't be barriers between students and teachers.

    "We also feel the young people in our school should be educated on an equal basis and be prepared for their role as adults in a modern society in which we expect there to be equality between men and women."

    The Muslim Council of Britain has not yet responded to the guidance, but in a 72-page document released in February the organisation stopped short of endorsing niqabs for girls.

    It did, however, urge schools to take into account Muslim pupils' needs to dress modestly and avoid tight-fitting or transparent garments.

    Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said successive ministers had failed to give proper guidance about schools' obligations regarding religious dress.

    "To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.

    Financial hardship

    Ayshah Ishmail, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC that wearing the veil promotes equality.

    She said: "You're judged for who you are and not what you are, so I think there are two arguments to the whole equality issue."

    There were misconceptions that women who wore the veil were being oppressed, she added.

    The DfES guidance also instructs schools to be sensitive to the cost implications of their choice of uniform which should be available at high street shops.

    A recent letter to all schools from the Office of Fair Trading says they can be prosecuted for engaging in exclusive agreements with specific retailers.

    The guidance also reiterates schools' right to discipline pupils for not wearing the proper uniform.

    But they should carefully investigate the reasons behind this and be sensitive in cases of financial hardship.



    Link below

    BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Schools allowed to ban face veils
    <img src=http://C:\Documents and Settings\Wayne Smith\My Documents\002...My Pictures border=0 alt= />FEAR NAUGHT

    Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

  2. #2
    Military Professional dave lukins's Avatar
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    Teacher Ismail wears the niquab "away" from the classroom, however are there any male teaches in that school? I know it is a Girls only School but is it all Female teachers? Would she wear it if there were male teachers? And yes the DfES need to spark and get this sorted out before the Country becomes Bankrupt from all the Court cases

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    Ayshah Ishmail, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC that wearing the veil promotes equality.
    I know what I think is wrong and I should go to hell for it (but as an atheist I'll just stick two fingers up at the devil) but I believe as humans we rely on facial signals and face to face contact for human interaction and understanding. Especially in the classroom / lecture theatre / workshop.
    The problem with the "equality" defence espoused by Teacher Ishmael is that as a teacher I need to know the students are awake / participating / active and even simply who the heck they are supposed to be! Worse still the health and safety issues in my workshops!

    Never had a niquab issue yet but I'd vote on a ban straight away.

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    It seems to me that there are far too many immigrants and offspring of immigrants who are hell-bent on turning the UK into a third world country.
    For someone to say:

    Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said successive ministers had failed to give proper guidance about schools' obligations regarding religious dress. "To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.

    is an outrage. By promoting their differences, such as wearing 7th Century attire, and insisting on their dietary laws there is precious little chance that they will ever be part of a modern country.
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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    I don't see anything wrong with the first part of the quoted statement Glyn - isn't it simply a record of fact?

    successive ministers had failed to give proper guidance about schools' obligations regarding religious dress.
    That is true and it covers all religions.

    However his next line may be what you mean -

    "To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.
    On the face of it it's true, but the Niquab is a cultural rather than religous piece of clothing. It has thus no place in education. At any rate, we should look at the French example and separate all religion from education. After the initial furore when the French took their steps we've heard nothing further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by execrable View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with the first part of the quoted statement Glyn - isn't it simply a record of fact?

    Well, if it is old sport you then manage to disagree with yourself! (I'm not complaining!)



    That is true and it covers all religions.

    However his next line may be what you mean -



    On the face of it it's true, but the Niquab is a cultural rather than religous piece of clothing. It has thus no place in education. At any rate, we should look at the French example and separate all religion from education. After the initial furore when the French took their steps we've heard nothing further.
    True, true, and spoken with a mouthful of teeth. We can indeed learn from the French in this case.
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by glyn View Post
    It seems to me that there are far too many immigrants and offspring of immigrants who are hell-bent on turning the UK into a third world country.
    For someone to say:

    Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said successive ministers had failed to give proper guidance about schools' obligations regarding religious dress. "To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.

    is an outrage. By promoting their differences, such as wearing 7th Century attire, and insisting on their dietary laws there is precious little chance that they will ever be part of a modern country.
    There were far too many foreigners looting and ruining our countries for a very long time, too! Some, now, would call it payback time.

    That apart, to be fair and without getting into issues of third world and immigrants ruining everything, I feel that while in Rome do as the Romans do.

    Non native (ancient) British individuals (foreigners and second generation) should try to amalgamate with the norms of the existing society and not force their way of life (especially those that are very visible and contrary to the native societal norms) on to society. In short, one should not act provocatively.

    Nothing wrong of anyone to follow his own dietary restrictions, though once again, using it to prevent others from following theirs, would be totally wrong!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

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    [QUOTE=Ray;357405]There were far too many foreigners looting and ruining our countries for a very long time, too! Some, now, would call it payback time.

    Oh, but they do! I myself have heard this on a number of occasions.
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glyn View Post
    Well, if it is old sport you then manage to disagree with yourself! (I'm not complaining!)


    I was musing rather than discussing or debating. Sometimes I ramble but yes, I did knowingly contradict myself - probably because it's not a plain and simple issue. I know my position on things like the niquab and the burka (spelling) are politically incorrect but I know I would feel really odd if I had to teach modeling and other workshop techniques to a student in a Niquab.

    It's "wrong" if I am discriminating but I don't like the clothing and don't feel comfortable around someone dressed semi-ninja like in my workshop. I'm just a human but a contrary one I guess.

    /ramble

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    Quote Originally Posted by execrable View Post




    It's "wrong" if I am discriminating but I don't like the clothing and don't feel comfortable around someone dressed semi-ninja like in my workshop. I'm just a human but a contrary one I guess.

    /ramble

    We are all humans, and can all be flawed and inconsistent. Heck, I think that could be the definition of a human!
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by execrable View Post
    I believe as humans we rely on facial signals and face to face contact for human interaction and understanding. Especially in the classroom / lecture theatre / workshop.
    The problem with the "equality" defence espoused by Teacher Ishmael is that as a teacher I need to know the students are awake / participating / active and even simply who the heck they are supposed to be! Worse still the health and safety issues in my workshops
    Quote Originally Posted by execrable View Post
    I know my position on things like the niquab and the burka (spelling) are politically incorrect but I know I would feel really odd if I had to teach modeling and other workshop techniques to a student in a Niquab.

    It's "wrong" if I am discriminating but I don't like the clothing and don't feel comfortable around someone dressed semi-ninja like in my workshop. I'm just a human but a contrary one I guess.
    It would be disturbing if your perfectly reasonable position was considered non PC.

    I would even extrapolate it to strangers you pass in the street. A quick glance at their face is a social interaction and we use it to get an immediate measure of who you are passing. Dammit, it's part of our culture. And it is not just to check out whether she is a looker, -I would be willing to forgo that (in fact many women are better looking if you can only see their eyes). But e.g. if you're standing in front of them in the cue you instinctively look for facial cues to help you feel comfortable.

    It is undoubtedly also a bar to social inclusion and integration.

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    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    So what if a child has a completely paralyzed face from some sort of accident - are they banned from participating in school as well?

    -dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem View Post
    So what if a child has a completely paralyzed face from some sort of accident - are they banned from participating in school as well?

    -dale
    O yeah, 'cos a paralyzed face is clearly cultural and optional

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    I can't speak for schools but at Higher education we certainly can tell the difference between a disfigurement and a cultural choice.

    Given my particular area - (a modeling workshop) religous clothing like a burka or niquab would impact on a students health and safety. If a student had a facial disfigurement and their clothing meant they wore cumbersome clothing / safety gear - they could choose to get a helper.

    I am strongly of the belief this is cultural clothing. If the clothing means they get caught in a lathe or welding torch etc etc then they don't come in.

    Simple.

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    Military Professional dave lukins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem View Post
    So what if a child has a completely paralyzed face from some sort of accident - are they banned from participating in school as well?

    -dale
    Most medical conditions are know to teachers..I have never known any child or otherwise , being refrained from "participating "in any UK School

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