Thread: Opposition parties join forces on Kyoto

Canada's commitment under Kyoto was to reduce emissions to 6% below 1990 levels. Today emissions are 24% above 1998 levels (when Canada signed Kyoto), and growing. I don't see how Canada can reach the target, unless she stops extracting oil from the Alberta sands completely.

Canada's steel industry is a prime target too, btw, as are her aluminum smelters. Even though Canada imports the bauxite, aluminum takes huge amounts of electricity to produce. That electricity is generated by hydro and coal. The hydro is no problem wrt Kyoto, but even the cleanest burning coal-fired plants put out large amounts of CO2.

Even the timber industry will be hit, since her forests are Canada's main CO2 sinks. (Don't you dare cut down that tree!)

Canada can do as the US has done, e.g. implement the new technologies to reduce emissions in power plants and manufacturing, but normal growth makes the levels of 1990 out of the question with today's technologies and energy needs.

Energy is the prime target of Kyoto- you can't reduce emissions without reducing consumption of fossil fuels.

And in the meantime, the big polluters in the next decade will be Russia, China and India, who are all exempt from Kyoto!

Both Canada and the US are net importers of CO2 via our forests, but that doesn't count where Kyoto is concerned. And since the US had already cleaned up the worst of our industrial pollution by 1990, we don't get the benefits of those reductions under Kyoto. So we are expected to further reduce already clean processes. When you have already eliminated 95% of your industrial pollutants, that last 5% is a real b*tch to get rid of.

The only alternative to the loss of energy production would be nuclear, and the greens won't stand for that!

Hell, can't even burn cow patties for heat, lol.

Canada will continue to do what she has done in the past- that is, make unacheivable promises and fail to meet them...

A different approach is needed, but I don't know what the answer is.

Heh, its all smoke and mirrors. The people will aplaud the opposition party's now but if serious efforts are made to reach the Kyoto's unrealistic numbers they won't be singing the praises once they lose their jobs.

Think we have problems with Quebec separation? Alberta will be next...

This is all just a song and dance by the other party's to get themselves in a better voting possition by next spring.

Canada's commitment under Kyoto was to reduce emissions to 6% below 1990 levels. Today emissions are 24% above 1998 levels (when Canada signed Kyoto), and growing. I don't see how Canada can reach the target, unless she stops extracting oil from the Alberta sands completely.

Probably right. But we have pretty much not even tried. I don't mean try to reach the target, I mean try to reduce emissions at all.

Even the timber industry will be hit, since her forests are Canada's main CO2 sinks. (Don't you dare cut down that tree!)

I believe all forests cut in Canada have to be replaced by new seeds/saplings. But still, something to that.

Energy is the prime target of Kyoto- you can't reduce emissions without reducing consumption of fossil fuels.

But we have barely made any efforts to be more efficient. We have had some token efforts in subsidizing the purchase of more efficient appliances and compact fluorescents, but nothing major. We could also raise our emission standards, but we haven't yet.

And in the meantime, the big polluters in the next decade will be Russia, China and India, who are all exempt from Kyoto!

Russia is not exempt, but they, along with all of Eastern Europe have kind of cheated. Their economies collapsed in 1991 so their emissions shot down without them doing anything.

Both Canada and the US are net importers of CO2 via our forests, but that doesn't count where Kyoto is concerned.

I don't think it should, we didn't make our forests after all.

And since the US had already cleaned up the worst of our industrial pollution by 1990, we don't get the benefits of those reductions under Kyoto. So we are expected to further reduce already clean processes. When you have already eliminated 95% of your industrial pollutants, that last 5% is a real b*tch to get rid of.

The US has done a good job in cleaning up a lot of pollutants, but I don't think CO2 is one of them. The EPA does not classify CO2 as a pollutant that can be regulated at any rate. If the US had already done more than most other countries then it probably would not emit more per capita than any other country. Don't get me wrong, Canada is even worse, but I don't think the US has done all of the "semi-easy" stuff yet either.

The only alternative to the loss of energy production would be nuclear, and the greens won't stand for that!

True, they are idiots when it comes to nuclear.

Canada will continue to do what she has done in the past- that is, make unacheivable promises and fail to meet them...

Probably.

A different approach is needed, but I don't know what the answer is.

Here are some things Canada could do (assuming one believes the situation to warrant doing something). I don't know how expensive they would be, but I don't think it would be a huge drain on the economy since it is generally not ordering industry to do things it can't do.

1) California emission standards
2) National energy grid (will allow Quebec to sell surplus hydro to Ontario and the rest of Canada, will encourage development of clean energy in other provinces since they will be able to sell it to the rest of the country)
3) Increase efficiency standards for new houses and appliances
4) Gradually increases in the percentage of gas made of biofuels (promised by the Conservatives)
5) Use nuclear power to pump out the oil from Alberta (proposed by the Conservatives)
6) Get scrubbers on all coal plants in Canada
7) Subsidies for renovating homes to be more energy efficient (we have weak versions of this)
8) Offshore windmills on both coasts (offshore means consistent wind, no worries about stop and start)
9) Increased funding for public transit expansion/fare reduction

Originally Posted by ZFBoxcar

Obviously if you don't believe there is global warming or that it is not caused by humans, it makes sense to oppose this. But for people who do believe it is caused by humans, what do you think? Is Canada's Kyoto target reachable? Would it be reachable by, say, 2015 even if we can't get there for 2012? What methods should we use? Dion supports clean coal and opposes nuclear, and Harper supports nuclear (don't know his coal position).

Stephen Dion is quoted as saying that it would be impossible for Canada to keep its Koyoto commitments without dystroying Industry in this country.

Yet he still votes in favour of Koyoto, the hypocracy is laughable.

In order for Canada to meet our Koyoto agreements, every man, woman and child, plus all industries and manufacturing plants must reduce there green house gas tonnage by 35%!!!!

This is just impossible!

Not to mention, that Canada is the only country in the western Hemisphere who was apart of Koyoto, this means that we would be making the Canadian economy and industry less competative within our hemisphere. No one seems to be willing to admit that!

Another thing worth mentioning, is that Koyoto doesnt even address pollution. Global Warming is a farce, in time everyone will see this, but Koyoto does not address the real dangers facing our environment, and that is air pollution (smog) as well as Soil and Water pollution.

Stephen Dion is quoted as saying that it would be impossible for Canada to keep its Koyoto commitments without dystroying Industry in this country.

Yet he still votes in favour of Koyoto, the hypocracy is laughable.

In order for Canada to meet our Koyoto agreements, every man, woman and child, plus all industries and manufacturing plants must reduce there green house gas tonnage by 35%!!!!

This is just impossible!

Not to mention, that Canada is the only country in the western Hemisphere who was apart of Koyoto, this means that we would be making the Canadian economy and industry less competative within our hemisphere. No one seems to be willing to admit that!

Another thing worth mentioning, is that Koyoto doesnt even address pollution. Global Warming is a farce, in time everyone will see this, but Koyoto does not address the real dangers facing our environment, and that is air pollution (smog) as well as Soil and Water pollution.

Well like I said, if you don't believe in global warming then of course any economic sacrifice to prevent it seems stupid. I do believe it is real, and therefore I believe we do need to make some sacrifices, although some of the things we could do would actually save us money and make us more efficient in the long run (ie more efficient lighting, appliances, homes and cars save us money, and public transit, renewable fuels and nuclear power give us some protection against rising fossil fuel prices).

Originally Posted by ZFBoxcar

...I believe all forests cut in Canada have to be replaced by new seeds/saplings. But still, something to that.

Same here, BUT. When you process that tree that you cut down, you release the stored CO2 in various ways (the slash is burned, within a few years that 2x4 or paper ends up in a fire or incinerator, etc). Plus it takes gasoline to run that chain saw, diesel in the truck to get the logs down the mountain, electricity in the mill to saw it into lumber, more fuel to get the lumber to market, and so on.

If you cut down a 75 year-old Fir, it will be 75 years before that sapling has stored the equivalent amount of CO2 that you released.

Now take an old growth forest- here you have trees that may be thousands of years old. It's not just the carbon stored in the tree- a great deal of the carbon in old growth forests is in the soil. Leaves, twigs, and roots get bound up in the soil, and the carbon can be stored there for centuries. Clearcut the forest, and you change the ecosystem. The biomass in the soil decreases since there is much less decomposition taking place in a managed forest. This causes a net release of carbon as the biomass decomposes without being replaced.

The pursuit of plantation forestry in old growth areas may actually lead to greater carbon release. I'm all for planting more trees, but I don't think you should cut down an old growth forest to do so.

However, I should add that my main objection to old growth logging isn't based on carbon release, but loss of biodiversity. But carbon release is a consideration, especially in the context of Kyoto.

TENILLE BONOGUORE

Globe and Mail Update and Canadian Press

The House of Commons will cast its final vote on implementing the Kyoto protocol on Wednesday evening after the Conservative bid to have it thrown out failed.

The minority government had asked the Speaker of the House to have Bill C-288 declared invalid, because it would force the government to spend money against its will.

It was the third time the government had made that petition, and Speaker Peter Milliken said it was “not persuasive then, and is no more persuasive now.”

Citing his two previous rulings that the bill contains no specific spending measures, and added that he cannot speculate on what financial impact the bill could potentially have.

“(The government) presents no new arguments but instead comes perilously close to an appeal of the chair's decision,” Mr. Milliken said.

Introduced by Liberal Pablo Rodriguez last May and passed at its second reading in October, the Kyoto protocol implementation act is scheduled to face its third reading at 5:45 p.m. EST Wednesday.

Both the Bloc Québécois and the NDP have pledged to support the Liberal bill, which is designed to force the minority government to meet Canada's Kyoto Protocol obligations.

Despite the Conservatives decrying the bill as a toothless tiger, the bill holds strong implications for government, says Professor Stewart Elgie, the associate director of the University of Ottawa's Institute of the Environment.

“There is no doubt this bill is enforceable on government. If they don't meet its requirements, the government can be taken to court,” Prof. Elgie said on Wednesday.

It also compels the government to set fines or jail terms for businesses and industries that over-pollute.

Meeting the international obligations inherent in the protocol will be made more difficult by the Conservatives' publicly stated refusal to participate in international emissions trading.

Prof. Elgie says global carbon trading and strong domestic emissions targets are the two key elements to meet the Kyoto goals.

“We're shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't get involved in emissions trading,” he said.

“Climate change is a global problem. A tonne emitted in China has the same effect as a tonne in Canada. There's absolutely no reason not to do emissions trading.

“This is really just another form of development aid. It's the best form we can give because it would actually benefit us.”

Under Kyoto, Canada agreed to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases so that they averaged 6 per cent below 1990 levels in the years 2008 to 2012. Canada's emissions are currently 34.6 per cent above that target.

Yet Prof. Elgie says it is not too late.

“Kyoto is just the first step. We've got to achieve cuts in the area of 60 per cent or more by 2050 if we're going to prevent climate change,” he says.

“Kyoto is a small step, but one we must take. If we leave it longer, it will be impossible.”

One Tory suggested the minority government might simply ignore the bill if it becomes law.

“It's just a mischief bill,” said Mark Warawa, parliamentary secretary to the environment minister.

“It shows what the Liberals have always done: just empty rhetoric, empty bills that won't actually achieve anything.

“We're not going back to that. This government is moving forward with real concrete action to clean up the environment.”

One government official suggested that if the opposition is unhappy with their law being ignored, they can bring down the government and trigger an election.

The Liberals waded cautiously into the electoral sabre-rattling when asked if they might table a non-confidence motion, depending on the fate of C-288.

“We're not there yet. We'll see,” said the Liberals' deputy leader, Michael Ignatieff.

“It's altogether possible. I'm not ruling anything out.”

So what happens now? Do you guys think the government will comply or find some way around it? I guess the problem is that it is difficult to say what complying is, at least in any specific detail.

Originally Posted by ZFBoxcar

So what happens now? Do you guys think the government will comply or find some way around it? I guess the problem is that it is difficult to say what complying is, at least in any specific detail.

Very easy, set a limit on how much fuel and electricity is allowed to be used in the entire year. Price will shoot up. People conserve. New technology will come about as it's now worth the money.

Or go nuclear.

Part of this carbon problem is caused the by tree huggers who were staunchly against nuclear power and hydro power (think of the fishes).

What's the punishment if the government doesn't meet its objectives? Nadda. Nothing. No penalties. What happens if I don't reduce my emissions? Nothing. What happens if a powerplant produces more because of electrical demand? Nothing happens.

It's a damned nothing bill full of rhetoric and no fines, no enforcement.

What's the punishment if the government doesn't meet its objectives? Nadda. Nothing. No penalties. What happens if I don't reduce my emissions? Nothing. What happens if a powerplant produces more because of electrical demand? Nothing happens.

It's a damned nothing bill full of rhetoric and no fines, no enforcement.

The bill demands that the government come up with a plan, it is not a plan in itself. It does lend credence to the Conservative argument that the Liberals would not be able to meet Kyoto either, since it looks like they want Harper to do something without explaining exactly what they want him to do.

oEe Colonel Sir Solution, run the Power stations with Scotch,,Please reply when you recover!!!

*** grasping my chest *** You're trying to give a heart attack.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

*** grasping my chest *** You're trying to give a heart attack.

Damn that was a quick recovery The Land of Scotch salutes you!SCHLANGE