Thread: 'Big Brother' Racism Row Sours UK-India Relations

Originally Posted by Ray

Ah yes, the famous black coveralls of the Armoured Corps! That is worn with total swagger and shine!

How silly of me!

It is rather interesting isn't it that one wears 'one Black coverall over Black another coverall' (Black on Black) to avoid collateral damage on 'Blue on Blue' (Blue coverall over Blue coverall?)

And who wears blue coveralls?

Blue on Blue.

Black on Black.

Steady Tankie Steady!

Not really green behind the ears.

Or vacuum between the ears.

Though, always open to correction!

Ray
"Blue on Blue" referes to casualties recieved from friendly fire.
The "Blue" coming from Red (Enemy/Soviet) v Blue (Friendly/NATO) exercises. (although somehow I just know you're going to tell me you knew this and were just being sarcastic)

My use of the "Black on Black" was a reference to comments made by Glyn where I percieved his comments as a "dig" at me.

For you additional information, it is incorrect to assume that all soldiers within the Royal Armoured Corps wear black overalls. The standard colour is green. Only soldiers withing the two (remaining) RTR Regiments are allowed to wear black coveralls.

Originally Posted by glyn

[FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="5"][COLOR="Navy"]I expected better from Archer. He is saying that Indians have every right to criticise Britain, but the British should not mention the caste system in India.

Sorry Glynn, please dont be so obtuse. You can criticize any darn thing you want but dont mock India for the monster you gents created in huge part. It is said that you can break a man, kill him, take his property away, but the worst is when you muck around with his soul and lie about his culture and then ensure that he believes it. The last is what rankles the most about British colonialism. The Raj did not just rule India, it created and manufactured history, it demonized native religions and cultures, it fitted them into manufactured European class systems and then forced it upon an India nationwide, so much so that it has endured fifty plus years. It took away an entire system of local education and replaced it with an English education system, modelled after what missionaries deemed necessary to bring "culture" to the natives. The British ended up creating a monster, that has not only taken lives in India, thanks to manufactured caste grievances, but also almost permanently turned brother against brother, via all sorts of manufactured hatred. For you this may be academic, a mere point to bring upon a webboard- we Indians live it. And it is ONLY NOW, fifty years of independence later, that we are able to find the scientific tools necessary to remove this colonial rubbish from the minds of our citizens, and even that does not work.

What does one tell a die hard "Dravidian" who has spent all his life swearing allegiance to a philosophy manufactured during British colonial rule, that his northern cousin is but the same as he, genetically, and he was never oppressed by the former? Entire political parties have grown upon the Dravidian movement, a canard invented by Max Mueller to proselytise and paint the British as the latest in a long line of noble conquerors.

So unless you have still not understood- it is simply this- criticize India on valid grounds- do not speak of things which Britain itself has caused and then washed its hands off of. I have gone through many tomes on the colonial period- till this day, the British academia and public wash their hands off the excesses of the Raj. The firings at Jallianwalla Bagh, the Bengal famine, the judicial lynchings of political activists on the flimsiest of grounds, were NOT the worst excesses of the Raj, it was the attempt - very successful at that- to create a brown sahib, who loathed his own culture and skin, and believed whatever his master told him- that was the worst. Divide and rule, and religious bigotry is what drove these attempts and it is India which suffers even today thanks to these institutionalized policies. A poverty stricken India which in the formative years of independence ignored all these pernicious "historical records" and "administrative procedures" which it inherited from the British administration, and which have caused divisionism and even insurgency. And then India is told about this & tut-tutted about the caste system by the the UK who helped set it up! Is the UK sending billions of pounds every year to India for helping assist community after community and setting the record straight via historical research? Are UK colleges teaching these excesses of the Raj under "never again"? So who is taking responsibility for cleaning up the mess, but India, and then we have to suffer comments on the same?

Nothing to do with the fact that India was a part of the British empire of course. Or Britain being a small collection of islands with only a fraction of the population was able to achieve this. It rankles that India was ruled after being conquered.

It is not the fact that the British were "conquerors"- who remembers the Indo-Greek conquerors or the Kushans or the Tibetan kings who invaded tracts of present day India? The reason we remember the British is because of what they did and the negative effects of their legacy live on. It is as simple as that. The British didnt merely rule, they subverted. And then they left (and thank goodness for that!) and left India to deal with the human wreckage and detritus of their efforts.

India has had half a century to get over it, but has still not managed to do so. Maybe they will eventually. People living abroad must be astonished that the British do NOT go around harbouring grievances about the Romans, the Vikings, the Normans, the Saxons or the Angles. In other words it was part of the history of the world and none of the participants are alive to complain to. Get over it.

Sorry Glynn, all you are doing here is demonstrating your lack of perspective on the matter. India cannot "get over" the Raj and the colonial era, because we deal with the problems it caused on a daily basis and then have to endure your lots lectures on the same. The people may be dead, the idealogies, the stupid manufactured events, the hatreds, the divisionism your divide and rule caused, live on.

And yes, history does bear remarking on the evil that men do, forgetting the Raj is an insult to the memory of all those who labored to gain India independence, because it bears reminding that India needed independence. It bears reminding that every day under the Raj had another British attempt to civilize the heathens forced down the throat of a local population, and even their own attempts to move forward were then claimed as "successes" by the colonial administration and are to this day, glorifyingly referred to in western literature as to how the British brought "cvilization" to India- Raja Ram Mohan Roy and sati anyone? What of all those men who fought in British colors in WW1, many of whom were pressganged into service by the colonial administration, as human chattel, with the local accomplices promptly declared as "Khan sahibs" and "Rai sahibs"? It is the Indian Govt of today that is funding their graves in Europe.

Fifty years? You have to be kidding sir, it will take a century and more for India to even undo a fraction of the damage that the British caused in India. The false Aryan Invasion Theory, the fake diatribes against "Brahmanism" that have caused one community to be targetted and have had it virtually leave state after state en masse, the manufactured caste system which is now integral to vote bank politics and is a part of the Govt thanks to British classification, the manufactured grievances of regionalism, thanks to British sponsoring of region against region, not to mention all the other regional troubles. The fake classification of tribal people as having been historically "separate" thanks to a european ethnographic procedure of classification, sponsored for purposes of religious proselytisation and divide and rule- something which endures to this day, as no Govt now has the ability to intervene and remove fact from fiction....and we are to "forget all of this" and "get over it"?

Its easy for the UK to move on- it is India which has to suffer this. So criticize India if you must, but criticize it on grounds where your lot didnt cause the issue - any of the rest, and it smacks of hypocrisy, especially when even today, British history and popular culture whitewashes the excesses of the Raj and the problems it has caused.

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Note I have said nothing about British society being racist today or tut-tutted about what it must do. That is something which Britons are better left to judge than I and it is for them to intervene/ remove/ admit- I am in no way going to make claims on the entire UK based on a single TV show. British minorities who live in the UK are far better folks to judge it, and change things for the better, if it is indeed an issue- not my bit of tea.

Originally Posted by Ex MIB

Ray
"Blue on Blue" referes to casualties recieved from friendly fire.
The "Blue" coming from Red (Enemy/Soviet) v Blue (Friendly/NATO) exercises. (although somehow I just know you're going to tell me you knew this and were just being sarcastic)

My use of the "Black on Black" was a reference to comments made by Glyn where I percieved his comments as a "dig" at me.

For you additional information, it is incorrect to assume that all soldiers within the Royal Armoured Corps wear black overalls. The standard colour is green. Only soldiers withing the two (remaining) RTR Regiments are allowed to wear black coveralls.

MIB,

Much that you may feel that the Indian Army runs around naked and fights war with bows and arrows, may I assure you that we are a modern army. Your British Generals have visited us to learn first hand of our techniques at CI as also the US troops undergo training not only for High Altiutude Warfare but also CI.

I am a flag rank officer of that Army. I have adequate service under my belt and have fought wars as also actively involved in CI.

Therefore, do allow a modicum of intelligence to me and do allow me that much of leeway to understand what the Army is all about.

If I did not know what is Blue on Blue and other stuff that you so kindly took time off to so patiently explain, then I should actually return all my pay and pension back to my government as it would mean I poodlefaked at govt expense and played the tin soldier in the nursery!

Our AC wears black coverall. Maybe they out British the British (see what influence you still have!). Though, thank you for the information that only the RTR wears black.

As far as the dig is concerned, lets not play the fool!

Explain how, if you wish, since you feel that an Indian Brigadier is as good as a Jock/ Tommy of your Army!

Arrogance, if nothing else!

Archer , I sense from the manner and content of your posts, that Britain isn't your favourite country?

Originally Posted by Ray

MIB,

Much that you may feel that the Indian Army runs around naked and fights war with bows and arrows, may I assure you that we are a modern army. Your British Generals have visited us to learn first hand of our techniques at CI as also the US troops undergo training not only for High Altiutude Warfare but also CI.

I am a flag rank officer of that Army. I have adequate service under my belt and have fought wars as also actively involved in CI.

Therefore, do allow a modicum of intelligence to me and do allow me that much of leeway to understand what the Army is all about.

If I did not know what is Blue on Blue and other stuff that you so kindly took time off to so patiently explain, then I should actually return all my pay and pension back to my government as it would mean I poodlefaked at govt expense and played the tin soldier in the nursery!

Our AC wears black coverall. Maybe they out British the British (see what influence you still have!). Though, thank you for the information that only the RTR wears black.

As far as the dig is concerned, lets not play the fool!

Explain how, if you wish, since you feel that an Indian Brigadier is as good as a Jock/ Tommy of your Army!

Arrogance, if nothing else!

You seem rather good at giving, but less so at recieving.

Perhaps you should have been rather more accurate with your comment with regards the Armoured Corp dress, perhaps then I wouldn't have felt the need to correct you on that point.

Pari,

You've got another beer? I think round two is about to start.

Originally Posted by Ex MIB

You seem rather good at giving, but less so at recieving.

Perhaps you should have been rather more accurate with your comment with regards the Armoured Corp dress, perhaps then I wouldn't have felt the need to correct you on that point.

Come to the point and address the main issue of Black on Black in response to the Blue on Blue.

Don't meander and use smoke screens!