'Big Brother' Racism Row Sours UK-India Relations

**~~bandwagon~~** · 22 Jan 07,, 11:36

Originally Posted by tphuang

Not thinking that I can change your view or anything like that, but I do have to respond to this. As a minority who has lived in several Western societies, I can say that racism exists in every society, but the British one is the worst. We all have extremely romantic views of the British society due to the well mannered conducts of the upper class of British society, but I don't think we should let the politeness of a society hide its certain darkness.

To me, the low strata of British society (which is far larger than you can imagine) is the section that can't hide or don't care enough to hide racism. That does not mean the other strata are any less racist, but that they can hide it really well.

I don’t think racism belongs to any particular stratum in British Society, or any institution. Like most attitudes, whether politeness, respect for teachers or elders, or racism, it breeds within peer groups or groups of colleagues. Once racist attitudes are introduced by more charismatic individuals within a group and taken on by others it becomes “accepted” on the surface, as the overall tendency is fro individuals not to stand out and therefore those attitudes are expressed by others even if not heart felt, or, less commonly, actually acquired if still young.

Hence the degree of racism can vary enormously from group to group even within a community or within one school or institution. It is not possible to obtain a measure of the prevalence of racism in Britain from the experience of one individual.

In team sports all members of a team, especially in professional football and cricket, are subjected to verbal provocation which is deliberate and tailored to the individual, designed for effect and all personal aspects are fair game. Although undoubtedly racism exists in sport, the degree of verbal racial abuse is not a good measure of this.

**glyn** · 22 Jan 07,, 11:55

Originally Posted by tphuang

Not thinking that I can change your view or anything like that, but I do have to respond to this. As a minority who has lived in several Western societies, I can say that racism exists in every society, but the British one is the worst. We all have extremely romantic views of the British society due to the well mannered conducts of the upper class of British society, but I don't think we should let the politeness of a society hide its certain darkness.

To me, the low strata of British society (which is far larger than you can imagine) is the section that can't hide or don't care enough to hide racism. That does not mean the other strata are any less racist, but that they can hide it really well.

Well tphuang, that's very sweet of you to say so. It must have been a pleasure for us to have had you visit these shores. I don't know the reason (and you can't be bothered to complete your user profile so I know nothing about you). Perhaps you received free medical treatment from our much maligned National Health Service as we get a lot of 'health tourists' freeloading here. Perhaps you received free education at one of our higher educational establishments. I don't know. As a simple retired overtaxed officer of Her Majestys armed forces I am used to having to listen and read all the bile the ingrates pour out. But my new years resolution is to frankly ignore these squeaky wheels. Print the facts or shut up. Have a nice day now, y'hear?

**Ray** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:23

Tphuang,

The people on 'Dateline London' did mention problems with the working class, who apparently lack the 'grace' as the British lady put it and were economically so harried that they do not have the tolerance that is normally associated with the British people and the culture.

Their views.

The British lady was some Lady (wife of a Lord or something).

Added Later:

She stated that it was unfortunate to take the least intellectual of people like 'the Jade woman' as a societal icon.

It would be real unfortunate if your experience is anything to go by. I reckon Liverpool and Manchester being working class towns (if I am not wrong) could be a real riot on a societal quotient.

Glynn,

Tourists are also allowed to use the NHS free?

That's quite a great freebie I must say!

**T_igger_cs_30** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:33

[QUOTE=Ray;332740]The people on Dateline London did mention problems with the working class, who apparently lack the 'grace' as the British lady put it and were economically so harried that they do not have the tolerance that is normally associated with the British people and the culture.

QUOTE]

Given the continued and steep decline of British Industry, through privatisation, the overwhelming abuse of the immigration system by new EU countries, not to mention illegal immigrants and a succesion of uncaring and self serving politicians/governments...........one can understand there tolerance being stretched to breaking point

**subba** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:35

This must be really terrible for her

SHAKEN Jade Goody broke down on live television yesterday and wept that she had ruined her children’s lives.

The race row star revealed plans to see a psychiatrist — and voiced fears that sons Bobby Jack, three, and Freddy, two would be “rejected”.

But, as sources revealed she was on the brink of suicide, she STILL maintained she was not a racist, adding: “In my biggest rage I’ve never come out with a racist comment.”

Jade, 25 — whose bullying of Indian actress Shilpa Shetty on Celebrity Big Brother sparked worldwide outrage — returned to the Channel 4 show’s studio in Elstree, Herts, to be interviewed yesterday.
She said: “I hold my hands up, my behaviour was wrong and nasty. I can see why a lot of people would be offended.

“I am sincerely sorry. I promise to God I am — and to Shilpa’s parents. I wouldn’t have wanted to watch my children go through that.”

Jade — who hit fame on Big Bruv 3 and had her sons with TV presenter Jeff Brazier — wept again as she denied her remorse was a cynical attempt to rescue her career.

She said: “I just want to get it clear to everybody out there that I am not a racist.

“My biggest fear is that my kids will be rejected — not that I’ll never work again.

“I hadn’t much to lose before, but I have now. I have got two children — I don’t want them rejected because of me.”

Revealing her plan to see a psychiatrist, she admitted: “I’m not happy with myself.

The Sun Online - Celebrity Big Brother: Jade 'suicidal' after race row

**Ray** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:38

Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30

Given the continued and steep decline of British Industry, through privatisation, the overwhelming abuse of the immigration system by new EU countries, not to mention illegal immigrants and a succesion of uncaring and self serving politicians/governments...........one can understand there tolerance being stretched to breaking point

I am sure those are some of the causes that has got the peoples' goat!

**subba** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:48

Racism is not about race. It's about discrimination. Thats the bottom line. Nothing wrong with any race, black, blue, yellow, white, brown. It's when discrimination enters the equations change. Discrimination may be bullying, derogatory comments, undermining one on a generalized basis and the serious one's will be denial of jobs, services, health, schooling and other issues.

Countries like Britain have obviously developed institutions that very much capable of tackling the serious racist machinations of someone in power to the extent that many feel that PC has gone a bit too far. Then there is an issue of standards. To be denied entry into a nightclub because of one's color is racist, yet denying entry to the same for violation of a rule like 'no sneakers allowed' is another. To enter say LSE requires standards, so it is not discriminatory if i don't make those standards.

In India we have what is called reverse discrimination by the state as opposed to positive affirmation elsewhere. People who make the standards for entry to an institution are denied so because another group entity has laws that enable them to be admitted for much lower standards. The result was sometime in 2005 the topper for a medical college in Pondicherry could'nt get admission as all seats were quota'ised.

But frankly i don't see why Britain should be rapped as a society since 82% did vote out the offensive person. I don't know how many voted but the viewership was around 5 million plus.

**tankie** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:49

Originally Posted by tphuang

Not thinking that I can change your view or anything like that, but I do have to respond to this. As a minority who has lived in several Western societies, I can say that racism exists in every society, but the British one is the worst. We all have extremely romantic views of the British society due to the well mannered conducts of the upper class of British society, but I don't think we should let the politeness of a society hide its certain darkness.

To me, the low strata of British society (which is far larger than you can imagine) is the section that can't hide or don't care enough to hide racism. That does not mean the other strata are any less racist, but that they can hide it really well.

Tphuang.

The biggest racist societies in the UK are the Pakistani,s towards Indians and vice versa , and then the Carribean community to both of them ,and it is returned with venom .And of course ,lets not mention the Thugs in the UK, who hate everyone .

**T_igger_cs_30** · 22 Jan 07,, 13:52

Originally Posted by Ray

I am sure those are some of the causes that has got the peoples' goat!

Dam!!!! the peoples goat has been stolen to ............what next?

**~~bandwagon~~** · 22 Jan 07,, 14:01

Originally Posted by Ray

Tourists are also allowed to use the NHS free?

That's quite a great freebie I must say!

That's a myth. All tourists are meant to be charged unless they are from an EU country (and have bothered to fill out the forms).

Otherwise you would need to be registered as a British resident, for which you would needed to have lived here for 6months minimum (unless you're an asylum seeker).

**glyn** · 22 Jan 07,, 14:05

[QUOTE=Ray;332740]

Glynn,

Tourists are also allowed to use the NHS free?

That's quite a great freebie I must say!

One n will do for my name, but yes many have used the NHS to get free treatment over the years, and the service is funded by the taxpayer. There have been moves to close the loopholes but still they come freeloading in droves. The NHS will not deny anybody treatment if they turn up at a hospital.

**~~bandwagon~~** · 22 Jan 07,, 14:15

Originally Posted by subba

Racism is not about race. It's about discrimination.

Racism is about race, which leads to discrimination. Differences in racial physical characteristics are the most obvious and emotive markers of a “them and us”.

In fact I think that racism the default norm for humans; the absence of racial prejudice is a learnt cultural trait, not the other way round. I don’t know that for a fact, but there is surely no doubt that racism is tribalism.

Tribalism is a normal human character trait, without which we could not have evolved. It is an instinct of self identity and belonging, although what you belong to is learnt and can possibly be re-learnt. The degree of tribalism and the flexibility of re-learning where you belong are heritable personality traits possibly linked to the traits for conservatism/ liberalism.

As well as self-identity, tribalism also leads to the categorisation of others as “others”, of lesser value, not worthy of the compassion you have for your own. Tribalism drives an individual to commit to his own group and unite against other tribes or other danger, increasing the chance of survival of the genomes in the tribe.

Civilisation has seen a cultural learning of greater inclusivity, but it is not natural.

One more thing: the human brain can only recognise 100 – 150 individual “types”, i.e. persons with their unique physical and personality characteristics. So within a tribe of 150 it is possible to predict and “handle” individuals accurately. In larger groups stereotyping becomes a necessary tool to achieve this.

In short, racism and stereotyping comes natural.

However, cultural learning is also natural. (Cultural evolution over the past 1m years has been far more important in the ascent of man than biological/ genetic evolution). But it can’t alter the fact that every baby is a racist.

**T_igger_cs_30** · 22 Jan 07,, 14:28

[QUOTE=bandwagon;332770]Racism is about race, which leads to discrimination. Differences in racial physical characteristics are the most obvious and emotive markers of a “them and us”.

In fact I think that racism the default norm for humans; the absence of racial prejudice is a learnt cultural trait, not the other way round. I don’t know that for a fact, but there is surely no doubt that racism is tribalism.

Tribalism is a normal human character trait, without which we could not have evolved. It is an instinct of self identity and belonging, although what you belong to is learnt and can possibly be re-learnt. The degree of tribalism and the flexibility of re-learning where you belong are heritable personality traits possibly linked to the traits for conservatism/ liberalism.

As well as self-identity, tribalism also leads to the categorisation of others as “others”, of lesser value, not worthy of the compassion you have for your own. Tribalism drives an individual to commit to his own group and unite against other tribes or other danger, increasing the chance of survival of the genomes in the tribe.

Civilisation has seen a cultural learning of greater inclusivity, but it is not natural.

One more thing: the human brain can only recognise 100 – 150 individual “types”, i.e. persons with their unique physical and personality characteristics. So within a tribe of 150 it is possible to predict and “handle” individuals accurately. In larger groups stereotyping becomes a necessary tool to achieve this.

In short, racism and stereotyping comes natural.

However, cultural learning is also natural. (Cultural evolution over the past 1m years has been far more important in the ascent of man than biological/ genetic evolution). But it can’t alter the fact that every baby is a racist.[/QUOTE]

Question.........So how can a baby be born a racist?

**tankie** · 22 Jan 07,, 14:33

Question.........So how can a baby be born a racist?[/QUOTE]

Dont know about that "30" but they can be born junkies

**subba** · 22 Jan 07,, 14:34

Differences in racial physical characteristics are the most obvious and emotive markers of a “them and us”.

Sure! But an emotive marker of 'them or us' does not necessarily translate to discrimination. When it does, we cogently refer to it as 'Racism'. Same with the 'Caste' /Varna system. Nothing wrong in that, it was a classification by professional aptitude, it exists in every society and will always exist. Only when a particular class/ classes start to dominate and discriminate then we refer to it as 'Casteism'.

Thus people will always have the inner drive to be a part of a larger group, identity. You may be correctly relating it to the 'tribalism' instinct. We feel as a part of a group or entity we are entitled to higher respect, some institutionalized to feel more macho, more academic, more fairer and thus expect others to be more servile, to open doors for them, be paid or enjoy more privileges etc, etc.

Yet, as a part of any individual group, or even this forum, there would be senior members who would feel some privilege of having a 'better say' more than a new comer like me. It's natural. There are ivy league academics who feel they are too high brow to communicate with others.

But ultimately the bottom line is discrimination. As and when it occurs there is also a reaction to it. The world has been created with differences. In civilized societies these differences should not translate into discrimination.

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