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Thread: 'Big Brother' Racism Row Sours UK-India Relations

  1. #181
    Ray
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    [QUOTE=glyn;332051][QUOTE=Ray;331963]

    A moments thought would have shown you that it is not tolerated in any Army. It is sharply stamped on in the British army.


    Please read what you have written. I prefer not to go beyond the words since any comment that one gives based on his interpretation here, can come under heavy attack.

    On this evenings news most of the time was taken up by this storm in a teacup, both in Britain AND in India where every person interviewed stated that the British were racist. Between you, me and the gatepost I am fed up to the back teeth with the whole affair. I hope it doesn't carry on for much longer as I am getting a sense of humour failure. I am not racist, and I live on a small island that has accepted MILLIONS of immigrants of every hue, not all of which make exemplary citizens of the UK.
    I would prefer not to understand beyond what is written in posts since any comprehension or interpretation can heap on me a huge backlash inferring issues that I have not even mentioned!

    I too am fed up to the gills.

    I come from a country that has accept MILLIONS of immigrants, CONQUERORS and people of different Faiths and many have been converted by the Sword too.

    And we have accepted them with good grace, not all were the perfect people to have come "visiting" us!

    The fact that our millions should have been able to throw such people out and didn't, may actually be because of the pacifist 'mother culture' that we had! In modern context, I would think it is a supine one!

    We, too, have adequate history to back up to beat our own drums or blowing our own trumpet!
    Last edited by Ray; 21 Jan 07, at 04:38.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

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  2. #182
    Jay
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    Jade was a fool, says Shilpa’s publicist

    Reuters
    Posted online: Saturday, January 20, 2007 at 1727 hours IST


    Mumbai, January 20: The eviction of a British contestant from a reality TV show after accusations of racism and bullying an Indian actress shows the victory of good over bad, the actress's spokesman said on Saturday.

    Indian star Shilpa Shetty's 25-year-old tormentor, Jade Goody, was ejected from Celebrity Big Brother by a public vote on Friday after she and others were shown insulting Shetty.

    Housemates refused to learn to pronounce Shetty's name, referring to her as "the Indian" and "Poppadom", ridiculed her cooking and eating habits, and called her a "dog".

    "Jade was a fool and now she is out for good," Shetty's publicist Dale Bhagwagar told Reuters.

    "The voting proves good has prevailed over bad."


    The episode triggered a media furore in India and Britain and was still on the front pages on Saturday.

    The Indian tourism ministry has taken advantage by publishing advertisements in several British newspapers reading: "Dear Jade Goody, once your current commitments are over may we invite you to experience the healing nature of India".

    Goody came to fame in an earlier, non-celebrity edition of Big Brother. She, former Miss Britain Danielle Lloyd and singer Jo O'Meara taunted Shetty and repeatedly reduced her to tears. Lloyd even said: "She should **** off home. She can't even speak English."

    Their treatment of Shetty sparked accusations of racism on the show and more than 30,000 viewers complained to Britain's media watchdog Ofcom.

    "It is the goodness of Shilpa that viewers have recognised, and she will go on to win the contest," Bhagwagar said.

    Goody said after coming out of the Big Brother house -- where contestants are kept in a fishbowl environment cut off from the outside world -- that she was not a racist and was sorry for her remarks.

    Indian authorities have asked Britain to check if racism laws were broken. British politicians have been quick to weigh in behind Shetty, but insisted her treatment on the show did not reflect prejudices in society at large.


    ---------------------------
    I cant freakin believe this. Good prevails over bad? WTF??!!

    I'm glad that the tourism ministry is proactive, but it would also be great if they show the same proactiveness in upkeeping ancient strcutures in Indian and work on our toruism infrastructure. Disgusting!
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

  3. #183
    Ray
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    Indian authorities have asked Britain to check if racism laws were broken
    That should not matter at all.

    It is for the British Govt to decide and the suggestion is not required or warranted.

    The British public and the British govt have shown statesmanship and fair play more than what could be expected!

    While I am peeved at this episode,yet I will concede that that British have shown their mettle and have gone up in esteem for being fair. They have lived up to the reputation that they have built over the ages!

    Notwithstanding what some British WAB members have commented about my 'archaic' ideas of Britain, the 'outburst' of anger in Britain makes me proud of Britain, since they have lived up to my image of Britain (even if it is not what the British members feel of 'modern' Britain).

    Three cheers for the British public!
    Last edited by Ray; 21 Jan 07, at 09:23.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

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    Seems like the only loser here is Goody . Trp ratings for BB has shot up, publicity for Shilpa has gone up. I am sure there would be endorsement deals and other stuff lined up for her now....
    Strangely "good seems to have prevailed over the bad" just because Goody was kicked out of the contest. Now Shilpa can return to her plushy life in India. What about the scores of real NRI's for whom harassment is part of everyday life, GOI had better take note of that.......
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    Indian authorities have asked Britain to check if racism laws were broken
    Oh that's so nice of GOI, laws are broken only when Politicos and Film stars are at the receiving end........
    Seek Save Serve Medic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    That should not matter at all.

    It is for the British Govt to decide and the suggestion is not required or warranted.

    The British public and the British govt have shown statesmanship and fair play more than what could be expected!

    While I am peeved at this episode,yet I will concede that that British have shown their mettle and have gone up in esteem for being fair. They have lived up to the reputation that they have built over the ages!

    Notwithstanding what some British WAB members have commented about my 'archaic' ideas of Britain, the 'outburst' of anger in Britain makes me proud of Britain, since they have lived up to my image of Britain (even if it is not what the British members feel of 'modern' Britain).

    Three cheers for the British public!
    Ray - some of your ideas do seem archaic about Britain and seem to apply more to sterotypes encouraged during Imperial days than to the Britain of today. I know you have met many Brits, but I suspect a lot of them would be British officer class - who are much closer to the older stereotype and not really very representative of the rest of society.

    Admittedly, the stereotypes are the ones that Britain itself spread.

    The sense of "fair-play" is sometimes exagerated but it does exist - and that was roundly violated in the BB House, particularly because Shilpa had done little to deserve bullying, let alone with the racist overtones.

    As to broader theories of Britain being a "racist" society as some have said, Britain is probably no more (and no less) racist than most Western countries. It is, however, considerably less racist than it was in my youth. There is a greater sensitivity in what language can be used publicly.

    Anyways - the "rats ass" has been evicted , and hopefully the cult of Goody has been expunged from the face of Britain for good.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankie View Post
    The uk tabloids have turned this crap into the debacle it now is and also our glorious leaders B,liar and his girlfriend Brown turning it into a worldwide affair,along with the Indian govt.

    And yet when dispatches was on channel 4 on monday , where a camera was smuggled into a mosque , where they secretly videotaped muslim clerics preaching bigotry and racial hatred and death threats to infidels , and how they are going to take over the UK and have sharia law , what has been said and done about that BY the UK govt and press ??? at this moment in time, bugger all,

    But have a bust up in some poxy tv show and the 3rd world "war" erupts .

    reallity TV shows ie big brother, utter BILGE. IMO . Edited .
    .

    Ray , if you have seen the show Dispatches from monday night 16 th jan , can you make a comment on it PS my anger is toward the UK govt and press , for obvious reasons .

    oh , and thanks for the 3 cheers
    Last edited by tankie; 21 Jan 07, at 11:39.


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    The extraordinary reaction smacks of PC fascism. The whole thing is a canard.

    Surely there is no question that a person’s ethnicity is part of that person’s identity. Hell, it is an obligatory box to fill in on a whole variety of application form. It is genetic, biological, unchangeable. Is there anything wrong with another person identifying it in commentary?

    It is racist to associate race with achievement or worth. It is racist to suggest an outcome of belonging to a specific race per se. It is not racist to mention characteristics known to be associated with race in commentary unless derogatory and intended to suggest a difference in racial value. It is not racist to identify a known characteristic of a culture or race and base a logical deduction on it even if you are wrong. E.g. “black people do not get sunburn”, “the eating habits of the Japanese gives them stomach cancer (true)”, or Indians’ custom of undercooking chicken gives them the sh!ts and makes them thin (ignorance from O’Meara), or what about "mincing sheep’s guts, sticking it in the animal’s stomach, boiling it and eating it sounds disgusting” (derogatory of the Scot’s eating habits, but racist?).

    Goody’s label of Shilpa of “Poppadom” may be seen to be an association with race, but I cannot see how it is derogatory of her race. It maybe derogatory of Shilpa as a person, -by name her after a food, similar to calling a German “Kraut”. But to call it racist is daft and paranoid.

    The only racist comment as far as I can see is from Lloyd “She wants to be white”, suggesting there is a value difference in skin colour. It was, however, a thoughtless, superficial remark as a retort to a specific situation. You’d have to be very sensitive to take offence.


    I, too, can play that game:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    While I am peeved at this episode,yet I will concede that that British have shown their mettle and have gone up in esteem for being fair.
    This is a racist comment. The fact that it happens to be complimentary makes it no less racist.

  9. #189
    tankie Military Professional tankie's Avatar
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    Bandwagon , you will have the frogs calling us roast beefs if your not carefull


    "When England was a kingdom, we had a king.
    When we were an empire, we had an emperor.
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  10. #190
    Ray
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    Bandwagon,

    If that is racist a statement, the heavens behold!

    I could give some genuinely racists ones, but then I would come down many a peg in my own esteem. I do care about my own self esteem even if others don't.

    And I decline to jump onto your bandwagon, dear bandwagon!

    If you understand what I mean!

    What a profound quote:

    Surely there is no question that a person’s ethnicity is part of that person’s identity.
    What exactly is ethnicity then?

    What's all this hullabaloo over being Scottish, British, Cornish, Welsh etc then?
    Last edited by Ray; 21 Jan 07, at 14:12.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    This is a racist comment. The fact that it happens to be complimentary makes it no less racist.
    Bandwagon sir, Are the British considered a race?

    Plus i thought racist was used in a negative connotation. It's not racist if i say Kenyans are great long distance runners or African Americans dominate field and track atheletics in the US.

  12. #192
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    Guardian Unlimited | Comment is free | British society is dripping in racism, but no one is prepared to admit it

    Martin Jacques
    Saturday January 20, 2007
    The Guardian


    So, thank God, Jade has been evicted. Imagine if she hadn't, that Shilpa had walked the plank? It would have represented a popular endorsement of flagrant racism. The extraordinary fact, of course, is that no one, or virtually no one, ever owns up to racism.

    Ron Atkinson described Marcel Desailly as a "****ing lazy, thick ******" on air and then had the temerity to claim that he was not a racist. Jade Goody called Shilpa Shetty "Shilpa ****awallah" and "Shilpa Poppadom", and then similarly claimed that she is not a racist. Andy Duncan, Channel 4's chief executive, in a performance which should see him sacked forthwith, claimed on Thursday that "we cannot with certainty say that the comments directed at Shilpa have been racially motivated". Ron Atkinson, Jade Goody and Andy Duncan are in denial - like, it must be said, millions of other whites.

    No one likes to admit they are racist or bear prejudices. Nor do they even like to be open and honest when they witness racist behaviour. Look at the Big Brother housemates: apart from Shilpa, not one has been prepared to call it by its name (though Jermaine Jackson, black of course, patently knows and understands). The fact that hardly anyone is ever prepared to admit to racist behaviour is perhaps a sort of strength: it speaks to the fact that racism is socially inadmissible. But it is also testimony to profound weakness, a measure of how little distance we have travelled as a society when it comes to understanding racism. For if the truth be told, we are a society that is dripping in racism.

    This is not in the least surprising. For the best part of two centuries, we British ruled the waves, controlled two-fifths of the planet, and believed it was our responsibility to bring civilisation to those who allegedly lacked it. There is now a belief that all that is long gone, dead and buried, history forgotten in a tsunami of amnesia about our past. But these attitudes live on in new forms, constantly reproduced in each and every white citizen of this country.

    We are not alone in our racism, of course. Every race exhibits racism towards those whom they believe to be inferior: India is no exception, nor is China, nor is Africa. What makes Britain - and whites - special in this regard is that we have been top of the global pile for so long, inflicted our brand of racism on so many, and have no idea what it is like to be discriminated against for our colour. When it comes to our own racism, we shuffle our feet, fall silent, become incoherent and pretend it is not true: we don't get it.

    There seems to be some idea in the mind of Andy Duncan and the rest of the denial brigade that racism comes in a pure and quintessential form: the use of the word "******", perhaps, or a blatant derogatory reference to someone's colour. But that is never the main form.

    Racism always exists cheek by jowl with, inside and alongside culture and class. As a rule it is inseparable from them. That is why, for example, food, language and names assume such importance in racial prejudice. And that has certainly been the case in Big Brother. Food is a signifier of difference: so are names, so is language. So Jade and her sidekicks homed in on Shilpa's cooking and choice of food, made fun of her name and refused to learn it. And with food came the suggestion that Shilpa's hygiene left something to be desired, that she was unclean (she had touched the food, it was claimed, and "you don't know where her hands have been"). In other words, not only was she different, but she came from an inferior civilisation. Her colour too - the most obvious manifestation of racial difference - was tangentially drawn into the equation through the comment about make-up and the Indian desire to be white.

    Of course, class is central. Race always comes with class. Jade's reaction to Shilpa has been shaped by her own class background, her racism articulated within that context. The fact that Jade is hardly blessed with great intellectual gifts, that her conversation is littered with profanities, that her behaviour rarely rises above the crude, lacking any kind of subtlety, and that her status as a former winner of Big Brother is her only claim to be where she is, makes it easy for the middle class to dismiss her racism as that of a crude, ill-educated, white working-class young woman, and that the middle classes would, it goes without saying, never behave in that way.

    Of course, they would, and do: but they practise it in a genteel middle-class kind of way. Just as Jade's racism has a class intonation, so does theirs - the asides, the put-downs, and the rest. Indeed, in some ways they are more ignorant - while masquerading as so worldly - because in general they have far less contact with ethnic minorities, unless they employ them as subordinates and/or domestics. They live in different areas, work in different places, and send their children to overwhelmingly white schools.

    Almost from the outset, Big Brother's racism has had a new and novel dimension. Because Gordon Brown was in India at the time, and was asked about it during his trip, the issue immediately acquired an international dimension. In an earlier era, of course, this would have been dismissed as of no consequence: the natives could safely be ignored. But no longer. We saw this just a year ago in relation to the Danish cartoons and their ridicule of Islam. Europe used to ignore what the former colonial world felt. There was no feedback loop. But such was the reaction in the Islamic world that it could not be ignored. That, though, was in the context of the Muslim world which, in global terms, remains weak and marginalised.

    Racial abuse of Indians is a very different matter. India is a rising giant; we can no longer afford to ignore, as we once did with impunity, the views and feelings of a country that represents one-fifth of humanity. We live in what increasingly looks like a global goldfish bowl where what we do at home will be seen by the rest of the world - and duly reacted to, in a way that cannot be ignored.

    The test of our behaviour, of how racist we are, is no longer what the white British think. That started to change with the self-awareness and growing confidence of our own ethnic minorities. But the matter does not end there. The test now, in this instance, is what Indians in India think, how they perceive us.

    As Goody raged and railed against Shetty on Wednesday night's TV broadcast, she was like a cornered animal, lashing out in every direction against something she clearly detested but also feared and felt threatened by. She was confronted not only with the Other, but a hugely self-confident Other. What could be worse? It was a metaphor for the world that is now rapidly taking shape before our very eyes.

    · Martin Jacques is a visiting research fellow at the Asia Research Centre, London School of Economics
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post
    Bandwagon sir, Are the British considered a race?

    Plus i thought racist was used in a negative connotation. It's not racist if i say Kenyans are great long distance runners or African Americans dominate field and track atheletics in the US.
    "British" are no more a race than "Indians" and I was just playing the game that the effigy burners were playing. Face it: Indians were upset at the attack becauce she is an Indian national, not because of her race. I didn't hear protests from Pakistan or Bangladesh.

    Racism is the ascription of any qualitative difference to race. In a positive connotation it is still racism even if it is not offensive. But it could offend other races. If you said negroids make better athletes, you are saying whites and Asians make worse athletes. (In fact your example does not refer to race, or even nationality per se, but may more suggest a life style difference conferring an advantage).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    What exactly is ethnicity then?

    What's all this hullabaloo over being Scottish, British, Cornish, Welsh etc then?
    That’s nationalism, tribalism which operates on very short term genealogy, where self identity and immediate ancestors and geography play a much greater part than biological or physical character.

    I think ethnicity is a construct that operates on many levels, but is determined by long term genealogy with distinctions in physical characteristics and cultural heritage rather than self identity. As part of ID there are only a few broad divisions with distinctive differences in physical characteristics. Otherwise it seems to be a social identity used to distinguish individuals or groups living in close proximity. I could be wrong.

  15. #195
    Ray
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    Racism"

    1.a doctrine or teaching, without scientific support, that claims to find racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. that asserts the superiority of one race over another or others, and that seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races

    2 any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, etc. based on such beliefs

    Pakistanis and Bangladeshi do not subscribe to the view that they are from the same stock as Indians, even though that is not true. One does not have to go to far. A visit to the thread in WAB would be adequate! Therefore, what protest are you expecting from them?

    Also, since they claim affinity to the Arab stock and are very keen to even disown their history (Google and you will find sites stating that their history is in no way connected to the Indian history),it is a laugh to expect them to rise to protest. However, we Indians felt outraged at the Hair incident, even though it concerned Pakistan and Pakistanis alone. Maybe we are different!

    Read that post in this thread posted by a Britisher wondering why the Indian shopkeeper cannot stand the Pakistani one and vice versa?

    Racism is all about discrimination. Positive stuff is not discrimination. English language! I did not invent it.

    It may be true that Indians maybe from a variety of stocks, religion and races. But then, it is good thing that we feel we are ONE, unlike many others who, at this late stage, want to find their roots!

    Take it from me, that we have been there and done that. There is nothing so sublime as being ONE!

    It is also humorous that many mistake me for being a Hindu. I am an Indian and that is what I am. Religion? I have no time for it! For record, I am a pagan (as per the popular definition, but I do believe in the Creator, a Supernatural force, that none can explain and even less by any human being, present or past!), if that helps!
    Last edited by Ray; 21 Jan 07, at 18:15.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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