Ray

If Ayotollahs are the undisputed spiritual leaders, then why have been assassinnated or attempt on their lives made?

Prima facie, it appears, that some did not accept that their edicts were sacrosant. Therefore, there appears to be a dichotomy between the perception of 'all knowing and undisputable' to the actualties on ground.

Another question I have and that is - Is the Grand Ayotollah's edicts applicable to all Shias the world over?

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

visioninthedark

dear Ray,

as usual, true to your habit, you jump to presumptions ...

I have given you above the SHIA RELIGIOUS HEIRARCHY ...

THIS STRICTLY APPLIES TO SHIAS .....


WAHHABIS ON THE OTHER HAD REGARD THIS WHOLE ORGANIZED RELIGION AS A UNISLAMIC CONCOCTION ... AND THEREFORE EXTREME SUNNIS AND WAHHABIS HAVE CONSTANTLY TARGETTED SHIA RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP ...


NO DICHOTOMY WITHIN SHIAISM ... THE ATTACKERS ARE EXTREME SUNNI AND/OR WAHABBI ... RECENTLY THE AL QAEDA HAS TAKEN UP THAT RESPONSIBILITY IN ORDER TO SAVE "PURE (WAHABBI)" ISLAM ...

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Ray

Visionman,

As usual you jump to conclusions instead.

I asked to you question that you have not answered - Is it mandatory for all Shias the world over to follow the edict of the Grand Ayotollah. After all he is an Iranian, while others are not. Therefore, there will be cultural difference or so I feel. Its like the Pope who is anti abortion (and maybe he is correct), but many Catholics don't take it as the Gospel truth!

If I wanted to know about Sunnis, I would ask Asim. If I wanted to know about Wahabis, I would have asked Prince Faisal of Saudi Arabia.

If you don't know the answer say so. It would be period!

Confed999

Seemed like 2 good questons to me, I'd actually like to know the answers...

__________________
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I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

visioninthedark

Ray,

I am not talking about myself and all those other secular shias like myself ... since they don't prioritize religion in our lives anyways ...

by, for the practicing shias ... yes ... the grand ayatollah is like the pope and his verdict on religious matters is considered the final religious judgement on any matter ... and so they are voluntarilt obliged to follow his edicts if they wish to be considered as "practicing" shias ...

all over the world .. all shia institutions and clergy would immediately accept and convey his decisions ...

so ... yes ...

Ayatollah Ali Seestani (who is Iranian by origin) has the final say in matters of religion ...

BUT

I hope you realize that this applies to practicing shias who seek guidance on any problem where they feel the need for a religious decision ..

Najaf is like the Vatican ...

and Grand Ayatollah Seestani is the same as the Pope for Catholics ...

visioninthedark

infact you can contact Grand Ayatollah Seestani through his website

www.sistani.org

you can put forward any question regarding faith and religion and within a week you'll get an official reply with his official seal and signature sent to your e-mail.

It doesn't matter what religion you're from, everyone can ask questions and will get replies.

visioninthedark

ohh and let me reffirm again ... there is no dichotomy among the shias and all attempts at assasination were made by sunni extremist government agents and/or sad-damn's men ...

Ray

What is the proof that Sunnis did it i.e. the assassination attempts. I don't dispute what you say but without proof it is the same deabte as to what came before? The egg or the Chicken.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if those inimical to the Shia cult of Islam were behind these attempts. In my country the Shias are more peaceable than the Sunnis. They are more receptive to rid the anomalies of interpretation of the religious texts and keeping pace with the changed circumstances from the medieval times. However, they are the minority. Therefore, their voice gets drowned by the shouting brigade. It was the same thing when a Shia leader was elected as the Boss of the Hurriyat in Kashmir. He was forced into the corner.

Do you have the statistics of Shias and Sunnis in Iran and Iraq?

I used to know some Iranian professors and they were real nice folks. They were not the fire and brimstones type like Ayotollah Khomeni. I found them very tolerant.

I reckon a generalised education (beyond religious bigoted scriptures) makes all the difference.

visioninthedark

You are being very insulting when you describe a whole religion as a cult!

Besides, I don't know why you bring up a dead priest again ...

all I was doing was explaining the religious heirarchy within shia islam ...

please lets not stoop down to the level of calling each other's religions "clts" ..

besides, there is a fundamental difference between the definition of "cult" and "religion" ...

since you call it the "shia cult" ... going by the same ... I could call the pope as being the leader of "THE catholic cult" ...

lets remain within the boundaries of manners and decency, specially when talking about popes and religions ...

visioninthedark

ohh ... about the part as to how we know who killed these top religious leaders ... well ... sad-damn never hid his works ... infact he used to boast proudly about whoever he got rid of ...

and you only have to hear the extremist mindsets of "cults" such as the al-qaeda to understand the rest ...

its strange ...


all I see at present is a Grand Ayatollah trying to bring about peace ... yet you don't see it ...

Jay

Not that I'm disrespectful or something, Islam is religion while Shia is a sect.

And now, semantics, I guess Shia Islam confines to these definitions of cult,

Main Entry: Shia
Pronunciation: 'shE-(")ä
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic shI'ah sect
1 : the Muslims of the branch of Islam comprising sects believing in Ali and the Imams as the only rightful successors of Muhammad and in the concealment and messianic return of the last recognized Imam -- compare SUNNI
2 : SHIITE
3 : the branch of Islam formed by the Shia


Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Main Entry: sect
Pronunciation: 'sekt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English secte, from Middle French & Late Latin & Latin; Middle French, group, sect, from Late Latin secta organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari to pursue, frequentative of sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b : a religious denomination
2 archaic : SEX 1 <so is all her sect -- Shakespeare>
3 a : a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b : PARTY c : FACTION

Courtesy: http://m-w.com/

__________________
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visioninthedark

so ... "branch" is the right word ...

rhytha

Ray

Cult/sect/branch/religion. Well, no disrespect meant.

Let's say a different stream of interpretation, if that please you. If that is also disrespectful, again my apologies.

Your statement 'when you describe a whole religion as a cult leaves me bewildered. I apologise because I didn't know that Shias were a different religion. I thought they were just another interpretation of Islam with followers.

visioninthedark

NO PROBLEM .... NO OFFENSE TAKEN ..

P.S.

That pic is NOT of Khomeini ...


I hate his politics and I totally think he was a loony in POLITICS, but to associate absurd religious claims that go against the very commandments that he himself vowed to uphold as a cleric .... now that was totally wierd and impossible!

Besides ... I have already explained in the thread .... if he had deviated from the commandments of religion, his own cardinals would have sentenced him to death!

So I hate his guts in politics, but I try to be fair when it comes to religion.


Why?



Because I like to seperate religion and politics.


Looks like certain people who come from "secular" countries are having a hard time making that distinction!!


Attack his politics all you want ... but not his religion!


Khomeini preached Shia Islam ... so by saying that this is what Khomeini preached (which automatically implies that no cardnal or other priest opposed it - since if they would have, he wouldn't have been able to preach it) you are indirectly saying that this is what shia islam is all about ...


besides ... a single peodophile priest does not mean that this is the whole religion ...


I could post the pic of a gay priest in Boston and label it ... "THIS IS WHAT THE POPE PREACHES" ...

do please .... keep your political animosity just that .... political ...

no need to slander a whole religion ...