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Thread: Canadian PM, Stephen Harper shows backbone on China.

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    Senior Contributor Canmoore's Avatar
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    Canadian PM, Stephen Harper shows backbone on China.

    Stephen Harper was perhaps the first western leader to put Human rights before Trade when dealing with China.

    This young PM is showing alot of firsts, and showing true leadership and backbone, something that to many past PM's lacked.

    ..funny however, is that all the lefties including wack jacko, who always condem china's human rights record, have been silent. And the media seems to be downplaying this.

    Liberal front runner Micheal Iggnatief, a supposed "international affairs expert" says that Harper should speak about his views on China's Human rights record in private only...Iggy just showed me, that he is just another spinless liberal. nothing new to see here.

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    CBC article..

    Won't 'sell out' on rights despite China snub: PM
    Last Updated: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 | 3:47 PM ET
    CBC News

    Prime Minister Stephen Harper says his government will not abandon "important Canadian values" by toning down criticisms of China's human rights record to improve trade relations with Beijing.

    Harper made the comments to reporters on Wednesday after being apparently snubbed by Chinese President Hu Jintao.

    Harper, who was on his plane en route to the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation conference in Vietnam, was supposed to have a private meeting with Hu. But after some initial talks between the two countries, the Chinese leader declined to meet with Harper.

    Harper said he couldn't explain the snub, but hinted that the Chinese were trying to put conditions on what subjects could be discussed during the meeting, the Canadian Press reported.

    "I think Canadians want us to promote our trade relations worldwide, and we do that, but I don't think Canadians want us to sell out important Canadian values," Harper said.

    Chinese President Hu Jintao won't meet with Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Hanoi, which is being seen by some as a snub over Canada's criticism of China's human rights record. Chinese President Hu Jintao won't meet with Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Hanoi, which is being seen by some as a snub over Canada's criticism of China's human rights record.
    (Kyodo News/Associated Press)

    "They don't want us to sell that out to the almighty dollar."
    Continue Article

    The government had indicated it would like to discuss a number of issues, including the case of Chinese-Canadian Huseyin Celil, who is being held in a Chinese prison for allegedly having links to Muslim separatist extremist groups in his native Xingiang province in northwest China.

    China has not recognized his Canadian citizenship, while his family says he is being singled out and discriminated against because he is a Muslim. The Harper government is insisting that he should be released.
    China-Canada relations a 'real mess'

    Robert Bothwell, the director of the international relations program at University of Toronto, said he was surprised that Canadian officials thought they would be able to arrange a meeting with the Chinese president.

    Bothwell said the Harper government has indicated how it feels on a number of issues involving the Chinese government.

    'Obviously, on the political level, relations between China and Canada are quite poor. I'm actually surprised that the Canadian side thought that they were going to get a meeting.'-Robert Bothwell, international relations expert

    For example, Harper's parliamentary secretary, Jason Kenney, has long criticized China's human rights record and recently met with the leader of Tibet's government-in-exile. Bothwell said these positions do not go unnoticed.

    "I find it irrational because if you are going to make favourable noises about Taiwan and if you're going to meet with the Dalai Lama and if you're going to sound off on Chinese civil rights and if your parliamentary assistant, while he was visiting China last year, made a tremendous point of being filmed interviewing dissidents, then plainly you're taking a stand," Bothwell said.

    "That's fine. But you shouldn't in return expect that they're going to do you any favours."

    Relations between China and Canada are a "real mess," he added.

    "Obviously, on the political level, relations between China and Canada are quite poor," he said. "I'm actually surprised that the Canadian side thought that they were going to get a meeting."

    In Hanoi, Harper is expected to have bilateral meetings with leaders from Vietnam, Australia, New Zealand and Korea.

    Security in Hanoi was already being increased on Wednesday as the city prepares for leaders of APEC nations to arrive. APEC has 21 members and the conference is the 14th meeting of APEC leaders.
    With files from the Canadian Press

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    a hell of alot of good that did...

    Not only did Harper manage to make Hu lose face (cardinal sin in dealing with Chinese), he managed to jeperdize not only future trade deals but also all chance that the detained citizen may have of coming back to canada.

    What Harper need is a 101 course in international deplomacy and learn how not to stick a finger in somebody's eye...

    Phew... the only good thing is Gordon being in Beijing smoothing out trade deals.

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    Strange Canadians

    The leader of a nation of 30 million people lectures to a nation of 1.3 billion people about human rights.The leader of an average power thinks that by acting tough against the next superpower of the world he will achieve anything.

    These western leaders have a lot to learn. No Asian leader will now be cowed by such empty rhetoric and certainly no leader from China or India. That time has long past.

    As for human rights, the reforms for human rights will come from within the country. No third nation has the right to pronounce judgements.

    By lifting millions of people out of poverty, China and other Asian nations are already doing a lot for basic human rights. Conditions will improve further.

    But no Rambo talk please. We are proud and historic civilizations. We will not be able to stomach empty rhetoric.

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    Time to give China a taste of its own medicine. They have for too long blackmailed West into submission by linking access to their(Chinese) economy and criticism of their political actions and Human rights violations.

    Now the Chinese need Canadian oil. So they have to shut up and put up with Harpers antics.

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    Canadian oil?

    China has been seting up oil deals all over Africa and Asia.Sudan, Angola, Iran and Russia are just few of the countries China is importing oil from.

    So what is so special about Canadian oil. Does it have extra pep?

    I believe, strategically speaking it makes very little sense for China to depend on Canadian oil. The Chinese leaders know that Canada lies in the American sphere of influence. Therefore the Chinese are more likely to do deals with countries like Sudan or Angola or Iran where western influence is minimal and supplies are more assured.
    Last edited by donjasjit; 23 Nov 06, at 05:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjasjit View Post
    The leader of a nation of 30 million people lectures to a nation of 1.3 billion people about human rights.The leader of an average power thinks that by acting tough against the next superpower of the world he will achieve anything.
    The leader of a moral power is telling China to stop acting like a brat and start acting in a grown up world.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The leader of a moral power is telling China to stop acting like a brat and start acting in a grown up world.
    I understand your point of view, let me try to explain my viewpoint.

    Human rights or liberalism is not like a pill that you can thrust down somebody's throat.Do you really think that Mr Harper's outburst on human rights will change anything in China or Asia? The Chinese media has barely reported the meeting of the two leaders. So for who was the outburst on human rights meant for, obviously for domestic consumption.

    The thing that has displeased me most is that he had to go public with his views. He could have told the Chinese President in a private meeting of his misgivings about human rights.But no.

    It is this lack of sensitivity that is so infuriating even to a non chinese like me.

    And as I said earlier, with increasing incomes in China the respect for human rights and freedom is bound to rise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjasjit View Post
    China has been seting up oil deals all over Africa and Asia.Sudan, Angola, Iran and Russia are just few of the countries China is importing oil from.

    So what is so special about Canadian oil. Does it have extra pep?

    I believe, strategically speaking it makes very little sense for China to depend on Canadian oil. The Chinese leaders know that Canada lies in the American sphere of influence. Therefore the Chinese are more likely to do deals with countries like Sudan or Angola or Iran where western influence is minimal and supplies are more assured.

    There is a difference between doing business with a nation like Canada and a country like Gabon or Angola.

    Also:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands
    Last edited by gilgamesh; 23 Nov 06, at 07:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
    There is a difference between doing business with a nation like Canada and a country like Gabon or Angola.

    Also:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands
    In the coming future small countries like Canada will not be able to dictate to a superpower like China how to do business.

    If Canadian businessmen suddenly decide not to do business with China I don't think it will matter a lot to China but it may matter a lot to Canada which will lose out on the business opportunities that China has to offer.

    I think business is dictated by the strength of the respective powers and consequently China is in a better postion to dictate business terms to Canada than vice versa.

    I agree doing business with Canada is different than doing business with Angola or Sudan but I don't think that includes listening to moralistic lectures.
    China has other options.

    My whole point is that Canada has to be more polite and sensitive when dealing with its business partners. Rambo like approach will lead nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjasjit View Post
    In the coming future small countries like Canada will not be able to dictate to a superpower like China how to do business.

    If Canadian businessmen suddenly decide not to do business with China I don't think it will matter a lot to China but it may matter a lot to Canada which will lose out on the business opportunities that China has to offer.

    I think business is dictated by the strength of the respective powers and consequently China is in a better postion to dictate business terms to Canada than vice versa

    I agree doing business with Canada is different than doing business with Angola or Sudan but I don't think that includes listening to moralistic lectures.
    China has other options.

    My whole point is that Canada has to be more polite and sensitive when dealing with its business partners. Rambo like approach will lead nowhere.
    India and rest of the world will always be an alternative. There is already some minor jolsting by Chinese to get access to that Canadian oil.

    Hopefully Canada distinguishes between human rights issues(bad) in a country like China and law enforcement issues(IMO, good) in a country like Singapore and not blanket them together.
    Last edited by gilgamesh; 23 Nov 06, at 10:22.

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    Military Professional 667medic's Avatar
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    In the coming future small countries like Canada will not be able to dictate to a superpower like China how to do business.
    Get an atlas moron...

    If Canadian businessmen suddenly decide not to do business with China I don't think it will matter a lot to China but it may matter a lot to Canada which will lose out on the business opportunities that China has to offer.
    I think the largest business partner for Canada is USA

    I think business is dictated by the strength of the respective powers and consequently China is in a better postion to dictate business terms to Canada than vice versa.
    BS...
    I agree doing business with Canada is different than doing business with Angola or Sudan but I don't think that includes listening to moralistic lectures.
    China has other options.
    Just wait for the next coup....

    My whole point is that Canada has to be more polite and sensitive when dealing with its business partners. Rambo like approach will lead nowhere
    Hey chicom don't give us moralistic lessons, you talk like a typical chicom as if only China has values and the rest of the world has only interests. Dig up the dirt on Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, Pakistan etc...
    Seek Save Serve Medic

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    [Get an atlas moron...]
    Let's talk in a civilized manner. That is the purpose of this forum. Size is not reflected by area alone but by the number of people who live there.


    [I think the largest business partner for Canada is USA ]

    I never denied that but does that mean that Canada should ignore China.


    [Hey chicom don't give us moralistic lessons, you talk like a typical chicom as if only China has values and the rest of the world has only interests. Dig up the dirt on Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, Pakistan etc]
    What I am saying is that the Prime Minister of Canada should speak with the leaders of other nations in a more polite and sensitive fashion even if he does not agree with the policies of that nation.


    By the way I am not Chinese.

    667 medic I have just seen that you reside in India. It seems unbelievable that you don't understand what I am trying say.

    What will happen if tomorrow President Bush tells our Prime Minster Manmohan Singh that he is unhappy with the position of dalits and muslims in India or that he wanted a role in solving the Kashmir dispute. Will we accept that interference in our country's affairs. Even if he does it would be best if Bush spoke privately and with sensitivity.

    Imagine the reaction if he publicly made such statements. Won't it make you mad at his unwanted interference.

    Or perhaps you are a westernized Desi and don't really care.

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    Military Professional 667medic's Avatar
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    Let's talk in a civilized manner. That is the purpose of this forum. Size is not reflected by area alone but by the number of people who live there.
    Yeah sure then are you going to equate USA with Pakistan (both around 300million population)

    I never denied that but does that mean that Canada should ignore China.
    Neither should the chicoms assume that they can change western morals by threatening a business boycott...

    What I am saying is that the Prime Minister of Canada should speak with the leaders of other nations in a more polite and sensitive fashion even if he does not agree with the policies of that nation.
    Lol the Canadian PM asks China to improve its human rights, what do you mean by polite manner....

    By the way I am not Chinese.

    667 medic I have just seen that you reside in India. It seems unbelievable that you don't understand what I am trying say.
    I am an Indian, that's why I feel that the Canadain PM's stance is justified, he had the balls to tell Hu the truth. Unlike India which banned all protests by Tibetans during Hu's visit and India is a democratic country...
    What will happen if tomorrow President Bush tells our Prime Minster Manmohan Singh that he is unhappy with the position of dalits and muslims in India or that he wanted a role in solving the Kashmir dispute. Will we accept that interference in our country's affairs. Even if he does it would be best if Bush spoke privately and with sensitivity.

    Imagine the reaction if he publicly made such statements. Won't it make you mad at his unwanted interference.
    Now you are showing your true colour, is it Green or Red..
    Hey genius, India never had a state policy to repress the under-priviledged. Infact Caste system was banned in the 1950's
    Ofcourse Bush wouldn't have the right to advice the government for what some unscrupulous elements of the society perpetrate.....

    Or perhaps you are a westernized Desi and don't really care.
    If I am a westernized desi then you are a brain washed commy rat who is probably studying in JNU and pretending to be sophisticated....
    Seek Save Serve Medic

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    Neither should the chicoms assume that they can change western morals by threatening a business boycott...
    Who the hell gave you the right to speak for all Indians. I as an Indian and an Asian I will never accept a foreigner telling my leaders how to live in my own country. I got my freedom in 1947 but it seems you are still living in the past.


    [
    Lol the Canadian PM asks China to improve its human rights, what do you mean by polite manner....]
    Polite manner means a private meeting in which he explains all the grievances he has. He does not have to make public statements.

    [I am an Indian, that's why I feel that the Canadain PM's stance is justified, he had the balls to tell Hu the truth. Unlike India which banned all protests by Tibetans during Hu's visit and India is a democratic country...]
    The Canadian PM can tell all that he has in his heart if he wants to but in private not in public.Banning public protest is wrong and our government did the wrong thing by trying to muzzle the Tibetans protesters. The Tibetans have a right to express their veiws.


    [Hey genius, India never had a state policy to repress the under-priviledged. Infact Caste system was banned in the 1950's
    Ofcourse Bush wouldn't have the right to advice the government for what some unscrupulous elements of the society perpetrate.....]
    Now who is being foolish, I am not even talking about state policy or not. I am talking about a foreign head of government telling me how to run my own country.
    Last edited by donjasjit; 23 Nov 06, at 13:33.

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