Canadian PM, Stephen Harper shows backbone on China.

**canoe** · 25 Nov 06,, 01:35

Originally Posted by tphuang

The issue is definitely not looking into human rights. He talks to China with a morally superior tone and basically called out China in the media. In Chinese culture, people don't do that.

for the new Chinese immigrants, definitely not in a good way.

Actually the whole thing is about human rights, which is where his 'tone' comes from. If they were dealing with illegal drug trafficing or something similar the 'tone' would be alot lower. And he 'called out' China in the media about they burned him at a major international summit.

And as for the immigrants maybe you should check out why alot of them are coming to Canada in the first place. There were demostrations infront of the parliment buildings by mostly Chinese Canadians in support of Harper after the issue blew into the open with the press.

China decided they didn't like the attitude the conservatives had by having the nerve to support an investigation into alleged (at the time) gross violations of basic human rights (organ harvesting was a big issue specificly). So they snubbed him and instead burning Harper he decided to press the issue and dragged them into the mess they setup for themselves.

**canoe** · 25 Nov 06,, 01:44

Originally Posted by hallo84

LoL that's all you can say to a canadian that actually lives in Canada?

Our PM is on a PR road trip and yet people cheer him on...
If only you weren't a die hard conservative...

Buddy, I've voted Liberal in the past and OOE is definately not a conservative mouth piece hes had his share of concern over the conservatives when they got in. I definately wouldn't vote Liberal at the moment but who knows in 5-10 years.

I'm supporting the Conservatives right now and will continue for the time being because their doing a fairly good job for the moment (relatively speaking). I'll never support the NDP and the Liberals are a total freakin mess and haven't in my opinion been fully paid back for screwing us over yet with all the stolen public money.

You seriously need to do a google search on 'Chinese organ harvesting' and look into what the Canadian investigation turned up. Will make you toss your lunch. BTW make sure to check out their execution vans, pretty interesting vehicles. And the death penalty isen't exactly sparingly handed out there either.

**Officer of Engineers** · 25 Nov 06,, 05:58

Originally Posted by hallo84

LoL that's all you can say to a canadian that actually lives in Canada?

So? Considering that you so state so many things wrong about the 80s and China's state of affairs within the Canadian economy, yeah, you know nothing.

**donjasjit** · 25 Nov 06,, 06:24

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

So? Considering that you so state so many things wrong about the 80s and China's state of affairs within the Canadian economy, yeah, you know nothing.

Just for curiosity sake do you live in Canada. This discussion has been very lively. I am glad I joined this forum.

**hallo84** · 25 Nov 06,, 06:59

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

So? Considering that you so state so many things wrong about the 80s and China's state of affairs within the Canadian economy, yeah, you know nothing.

Maybe you were't here during the 80s or too ignorant to have missed the real estate market crash, the bank failures in around 1985, and draconian fiscal policies that hiked interest rate increase upto 20% to save the economy.
All that was due to drops in crude prices.

Let me ask if you studied west coast economics or even aware of such events in Canada? Heck maybe you just don't know what you are talking about...

**hallo84** · 25 Nov 06,, 07:06

Originally Posted by canoe

And as for the immigrants maybe you should check out why alot of them are coming to Canada in the first place. There were demostrations infront of the parliment buildings by mostly Chinese Canadians in support of Harper after the issue blew into the open with the press.

That's great... just approach some and ask them when they immegrated to Canada and from where.

You'd be surprised at the answer you get.

Last time I approached some Falungong supporter outside of the Chinese consulate in Vancouver they told me they were paid $20 per person a day to stand there and shout slogans. No wonder so many of them were unemployed...

**gilgamesh** · 25 Nov 06,, 07:25

Originally Posted by hallo84

Maybe you were't here during the 80s or too ignorant to have missed the real estate market crash, the bank failures in around 1985, and draconian fiscal policies that hiked interest rate increase upto 20% to save the economy.
All that was due to drops in crude prices.

Let me ask if you studied west coast economics or even aware of such events in Canada? Heck maybe you just don't know what you are talking about...

Canada is a resource based economy. China is a resource dependent economy. One need not have an economics degree to understand who has the advantage. Canada could care two hoots if China is not interested in doing business with us.

**hallo84** · 25 Nov 06,, 07:40

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

Canada is a resource based economy. China is a resource dependent economy. One need not have economics degree to understand who has the advantage. Canada could care two hoots if China is not interested in doing business with us.

Canada is vulnerable to price flux. We don't have the cheapest operating cost and sure as hell don't have good investment opportunity. Canada have gone by without trading with China, well not in the sence we are doing south across the boarder but US isn't the solution to a golabizing economy. Losing out in China means when US decide to burn us on lumber price, we have no where to turn to but to be burned. So do we need China? in the long run yes.

When Harper decide to get tough with China did he even consider the possibility that it will change nothing? He wasn't the first to criticize chinad and certainly won't be the last. But doing it now in light of international media coverage only means one thing. His comming elections where he hopes to become a majority government.

You have to ask your self why he is going into these grey areas in politics including announcing his support for Quebec as a nation...

**donjasjit** · 25 Nov 06,, 07:48

Originally Posted by hallo84

Losing out in China means when US decide to burn us on lumber price, we have no where to turn to but to be burned. So do we need China? in the long run yes.

...

I agree. China is a potential superpower and you just don't ignore superpowers. You have to do business with them whether you like it not. That is why so many bussiness leaders in Canada are criticizing the way Mr Harper dealt with the Chinese.

**gilgamesh** · 25 Nov 06,, 07:54

Originally Posted by hallo84

Canada is vulnerable to price flux. We don't have the cheapest operating cost and sure as hell don't have good investment opportunity. Canada have gone by without trading with China, well not in the sence we are doing south across the boarder but US isn't the solution to a golabizing economy. Losing out in China means when US decide to burn us on lumber price, we have no where to turn to but to be burned. So do we need China? in the long run yes.

When Harper decide to get tough with China did he even consider the possibility that it will change nothing? He wasn't the first to criticize chinad and certainly won't be the last. But doing it now in light of international media coverage only means one thing. His comming elections where he hopes to become a majority government.

You have to ask your self why he is going into these grey areas in politics including announcing his support for Quebec as a nation...

Uttering a few "nicieties", like Harper's antics, will make no difference to Sino-Canadian trade. Rest assured, China will make some diplomatic noises and then it will be business as usual. Politicians are overrated. It's finally the money that will do the talking.

**donjasjit** · 25 Nov 06,, 08:32

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

Uttering a few "nicieties", like Harper's antics, will make no difference to Sino-Canadian trade. Rest assured, China will make some diplomatic noises and it will be business as usual. Politicians are overrated. It's finally be money that will do the talking.

Absolutely true. You hit it on the head.

**canoe** · 25 Nov 06,, 10:27

Originally Posted by donjasjit

Absolutely true. You hit it on the head.

Ultimately thats essentially correct unless other countries put additional pressure on China over the organ harvesting issue specificly.

The recent incident was a political response to political snubbing undertaken by the Chinese. And as was stated above the affects to Canadian-Chinese trade will likely be minimum if even measurable. And even if by some miracle there was a major effect on trade it would have virtually no effect on the Canadian GDP.

To put things in perspective in 2005 83.2% of Canadian trade was with the U.S. 1.6% was with China.

**Officer of Engineers** · 25 Nov 06,, 15:20

Originally Posted by hallo84

Maybe you were't here during the 80s or too ignorant to have missed the real estate market crash, the bank failures in around 1985, and draconian fiscal policies that hiked interest rate increase upto 20% to save the economy.
All that was due to drops in crude prices.

That is so a whole bunch of crap that you're seriously are an idiot. The crash was due to heated inflation and the resulting government intervention of raising interest rates. Maybe your body was here in the 80s but your mind certainly wasn't. It was fiscal policy to slow the economy.

Originally Posted by hallo84

Let me ask if you studied west coast economics or even aware of such events in Canada? Heck maybe you just don't know what you are talking about...

I know far more than you. The drop in oil prices was heating up the economy, stupid. All of which goes to show that Canada doesn't need China. Go spout your ignorance somewhere else. I've got $2bils that are older than you.

**tphuang** · 25 Nov 06,, 18:10

Originally Posted by canoe

Actually the whole thing is about human rights, which is where his 'tone' comes from. If they were dealing with illegal drug trafficing or something similar the 'tone' would be alot lower. And he 'called out' China in the media about they burned him at a major international summit.

Would a person be right to criticize others on a situation that he/she doesn't know much about?
Maybe if he actually visits China once in a while, he might have noticed the human rights condition have improved a lot in the last 20 years. And it's still continuing to improve. I'm not a big fan of Ignatieff, but he at least shows some basic knowledge of China.

And as for the immigrants maybe you should check out why alot of them are coming to Canada in the first place. There were demostrations infront of the parliment buildings by mostly Chinese Canadians in support of Harper after the issue blew into the open with the press.

Are you telling me you know more about new Chinese immigrants than I do? There is a group that support him maybe. But the majority doesn't. The majority wants a closer/friendlier relationship between Canada and China. But then again, it might be hard for Harper to see this until he looses areas like Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughn in the next election.

China decided they didn't like the attitude the conservatives had by having the nerve to support an investigation into alleged (at the time) gross violations of basic human rights (organ harvesting was a big issue specificly). So they snubbed him and instead burning Harper he decided to press the issue and dragged them into the mess they setup for themselves.

Dalai Lama issue was a lot more important and the Taiwan issue was a lot more important. China has heard about human rights for the last 20 years. As for this organ harvesting stuff, I don't think you realize how prevalent it is done in China by criminals. So if there are some local corrupted official (who act like criminals anyways) do it, it wouldn't be surprising to me. It's not a central government policy to do it. But then most people in China knows the problem is the corrupted local officials.

**hallo84** · 25 Nov 06,, 19:43

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

That is so a whole bunch of crap that you're seriously are an idiot. The crash was due to heated inflation and the resulting government intervention of raising interest rates. Maybe your body was here in the 80s but your mind certainly wasn't. It was fiscal policy to slow the economy.

I know far more than you. The drop in oil prices was heating up the economy, stupid. All of which goes to show that Canada doesn't need China. Go spout your ignorance somewhere else. I've got $2bils that are older than you.

Resulting to insults...

"The drop in oil prices was heating up the economy" "crash was due to heated inflation resulting in government intervention of raising interest rates"

LoL you just proved my point...

Now ask your self what caused the heated inflation and high economic activity on the west coast and especially in Alberta.

Was it Oil price or not?

Canadian oil is largely in the form of tar sands and thus is expensive to process. Its fine when oil prices are high but not when oil price drop to form ~US$32 to US$25 in 1985 or US$14 per barrel in 1986 it wasn't economical. Boom town turned into ghost town. Real estate projects failed and leading to bankruptcy of several banks.

If we had the Chinese market as it stands now back in the 80s oil price would've never had a decreased in price. A simle increase in Chinese oil consuption could easily increase oil demand three fold.