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Thread: So you think you're English?

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    Ray
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    So you think you're English?

    So you think you're English?

    Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 05/11/2006
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    Gene genius

    Lord Tebbit, Carol Thatcher and other volunteers thought they were pure Anglo Saxon - until they were DNA-tested. Andrew Graham-Dixon watched their jaws drop on discovering racial origins from Africa, the Middle East, even Mongolia. We are all mongrels now, he says

    Genealogy, the modern form of ancestor worship, has become fashionable. It has never been easier for people to track down their ancestors, thanks to the internet and to the numerous self-help manuals that this new fad has spawned. Perhaps, in an age of transient jobs and, so we are told, increasingly insecure relationships, it is not surprising that so many should seek a renewed sense of identity in their family origins. The trouble is that the trail usually goes cold after 100 years or so, as official records start to dry up.

    Until now. A new test can tell you, broadly speaking, where all of your ancestors have come from over a period of thousands of years. Recent scientific advances mean that it is now possible to unlock a far fuller story of the genetic past than has ever previously been possible. Inside you - in your DNA - are the traces of every one of your ancestors. By using a sophisticated computer program to compare your DNA with a global databank, scientists are now able to reveal the secrets of your global origins.

    Earlier this year, I was invited to take off my art critic's hat and take part in a genetic-***-cultural experiment.

    I was to present a show commissioned by Channel 4 and made by the production company responsible for the series Who Do You Think You Are?, in which selected celebrities go in search of their past. This time, the focus was to be on a cross-section of people; specifically, people who thought they were English. The aim of the programme was to plot these people's ideas of national identity against the hard genetic facts of their actual origins.

    The initial proposal read like the ingredients for a typical TV dinner. Take eight people, all of them white, all born and raised in England - and all convinced, some militantly so, that they are 100 per cent English. Persuade each of them to give us a DNA sample and submit it to a series of state-of-the-art tests to uncover where they really come from. The tests would involve comparing their DNA with a global databank that divides the world into four ancient population groups - European, East Asian, Sub-Saharan African and Native American. (This last group covers a large swathe of northern Russia through to the Americas, and so might be more properly considered 'Eurasian'.)

    The results would then be given as a percentage breakdown from each of these groups. A further, narrowing-down test - only for those with a high proportion of European DNA, which was in fact everyone in our group - would break this 'European' component down further into four more population groups: Northern European, South-Eastern European, Middle Eastern and South Asian.

    All of our participants were willing volunteers, anxious to find out their genetic past. A few well-known names were included - Carol Thatcher, Lord Tebbit and the tabloid columnist, Garry Bushell - but the principal focus was on members of the public, who had either contacted us via advertisements in the press, or had been sought out and persuaded to take part. They included a woman from Kent, a fishing worker from Grimsby, a lawyer campaigning to have the English accepted as an ethnic group, a stand-up comedian and a trainee soldier.

    What linked them all was the sincerely held belief that they were English through and through. Their definitions of what it takes to be 'English' varied widely. For one, being born here was enough. For another, it was necessary to be descended directly from the pre-1066 inhabitants of Anglo-Saxon England - or, at least, to feel a profound kinship with those peoples. For another, the acid test was simply whether a person supported the England football and cricket teams.

    I had my own DNA tested. The results came as a surprise. In my first test, I came out as 85 per cent European; 11 per cent East Asian; 4 per cent Sub-Saharan African and 0 per cent Native American. In my second test, my European DNA was broken down further into 60 per cent Northern European, 23 per cent South Eastern European, 12 per cent South Asian and 5 per cent Middle Eastern.

    What it all means is that, like everyone in the world, I am a person of distinctly mixed origin. I was not exactly flabbergasted by these results, but I was surprised that the geographical spread of my genes was as wide as it turned out to be.

    To analyse the results we turned to Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at University College, London. He explained that while the DNA tests and the science behind them was solid, there was always a small margin of error; and that his analysis was his interpretation of the results. He compared the process to tasting a wine and making an educated guess about its point of origin.

    Perhaps the most interesting thing about these tests is that they cut through pretty much all of our notions of nationality and cultural identity (which are, of course, social constructs) to a much greater truth: we are all related to one another. According to Thomas, it has been estimated that someone living approximately 6,000 years ago is a direct ancestor of every single person living in the world today.

    He also pointed out that man has been on the move ever since he first evolved in Africa. Migration is not only the norm, it is nature's way of keeping us healthy. The more our genes mix, the better the long-term health of the species - the better we can withstand infectious diseases and the less likely we are to suffer from genetic diseases.

    Dr Thomas said new research suggests we are hard-wired as a species to attract those with different genes from our own (this apparently works through smell). Being 100 per cent English (100 per cent anything in fact), at the genetic level, would most definitely be bad for your health. If the geneticists were in charge of immigration control, it would be an open-door policy.

    For those participating in our programme, the tests provided some startling revelations. Almost everybody had a genetic surprise in store. The test results were filmed live, so that we captured that initial jaw-dropping moment - and jaw-dropping it certainly was when some people's world view started to collapse around them as they were told they might have ancestors in Africa, or even Mongolia. Carol Thatcher, to her credit, took the news of her Middle Eastern origins particularly well, although her twin brother Mark's response to her wisecrack about his habit of getting lost in the desert can only be guessed.

    One gentleman, in for a larger surprise than most, was convinced that he was 100 per cent English. His definition of what he meant by that? All of his relatives had been born here, for at least 12 generations. When pressed, he admitted he did not know this for sure, but was certain that it must be the case.

    I presented Dr Thomas with this criterion as a measure of Englishness and asked him, using it as a guide, how many 'English' people currently lived in England. The scientist thought about it. 'At a rough guess? Er, zero.' Such a thing would only have been possible if a particular social group, isolated from the rest of society, had inbred for centuries.

    When all this was explained to our participant, he took the point and was ultimately rather relieved to learn that he was anything but English, according to his own, original standards. 'I guess we're all mongrels,' was his phlegmatic response to the results of his gene test - which showed, in fact, that much of his genetic make-up pointed to origins in Russia and Eurasia.

    Intriguingly, new information about himself began to change his attitude to others, too. When I had met him for the first time, we had talked about immigration and his concern that it was diluting the essential pool of 'Englishness'. I remarked that the process could just as easily be seen as an enhancement and, one way or another, we had got on to the subject of football. I had mentioned Ian Wright, the former England footballer, born in England and patriotic in his passion for England's increasingly forlorn World Cup hopes - and, of course, black.

    'Ah yes, but he's not English,' had come back the reply. 'You can't have black skin and call yourself English.' But when confronted with the facts about his own genes, later in the film, he simply changed his mind. 'Yeah, all right then, you can be black and English. I was wrong.'

    It was not until almost the end of the film that the full potential power of these tests was brought home to me, when one of our contributors, Damen Barks, an 18-year-old trainee soldier, made what struck me as a wonderfully precise remark. 'For racists to find out that part of them may be what they have discriminated against for years, well that would certainly throw them off their game,' he said. For Damen, his own test was a real moment of genetic catharsis - he was astonished when he discovered that he had DNA originating from at least a quarter of the globe. You could see his sense of his own global horizons visibly expanding on camera.

    Another of our participants has since discovered a family connection in Turkey which partially confirms her DNA test results. For others, it was not such a welcome revelation. Four days after hearing that her DNA suggested Romany origins, the 'ethnic English' campaigner was threatening legal action.

    However, these tests could be a powerful tool in the fight against racism. It is not just that they prove, once and for all, that any notions of race or racial purity are patently absurd and scientifically wrong. Their power lies in that they prove it by showing people what is in their own blood. When the truths of science become personal truths, they get taken more seriously.

    And as for the idea of being '100 per cent English', well - to put my art critic hat back on - no one has put their finger on the truth better than the great painter Walter Richard Sickert. 'No one could be more English than I am,' he once said archly. 'Born in Munich in 1860, of pure Danish descent!'

    Gene genius

    The tests were done by DNA Print Genomics of Florida, which pioneered the technique in 2003, using samples taken from the mouth. Each test costs $250. 'Most people want to know if they're Native American because they can get government grants for college,' says a spokesman.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...c05.xml&page=5

    Note: 100% English', 13 November, 9pm Channel 4
    I couldn't find out the thread about all the stuff on England, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall.

    So, I posted this as a new thread since it is quite interesting and did echo someone's thoughts in that thread.

    So, how English are you?


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

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    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    I've lived in Britain all my thinking life, but I'm not English, 'cause I'm an immigrant.

    But that's race/ethnicity. Put me, with my advocacy of liberty, reason et al, versus British-born Muslim extremists, Daily Mail reading nutters, Socialist Worker headcases... am I still 'not English' in the best sense?

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    Ray
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    One wouldn't know.

    Get your DNA checked, since you may not be totally as to what you have been brought up to believe!

    That is if the article is to be believed.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    The original inhabitants of the British Isles were the 'Britons', but these were in clans and tribes. Britain was invaded many times and the tribes themselves would fight each other. There was no sense of 'nationality' among them. It was not until the vast influx of the Angles moved in, having driven the original people out that a concept of 'Angle-land' was formed. The originals were pushed so far until they could be pushed no further. The North British were the Picts and the Scotti (from Ireland) also settled there. That became Scotland. Those forced westward became the Welsh. Those to the southwest peninsula became Cornish. All these displaced peoples were Celts, and spoke Gaelic. The English (as the Angles became)were the immigrants. This is why I get cross seeing Stonehenge ( a British) structure administered by the organisation calling itself 'English Heritage'. Stonehenge was erected thousands of years before the Angles moved in. I regard this as another instance of 'dumbing down' as it makes a travesty of our history. Of course the subject is much more complicated than I have written so forgive me for presenting a brief overview.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    I'm guessing Gypsies would bring the South Asian ancestry, Jews the Middle Eastern, Normans and Romans that Southern European, and perhaps all three the East Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glyn View Post
    The original inhabitants of the British Isles were the 'Britons', but these were in clans and tribes. Britain was invaded many times and the tribes themselves would fight each other. There was no sense of 'nationality' among them. It was not until the vast influx of the Angles moved in, having driven the original people out that a concept of 'Angle-land' was formed. The originals were pushed so far until they could be pushed no further. The North British were the Picts and the Scotti (from Ireland) also settled there. That became Scotland. Those forced westward became the Welsh. Those to the southwest peninsula became Cornish. All these displaced peoples were Celts, and spoke Gaelic. The English (as the Angles became)were the immigrants. This is why I get cross seeing Stonehenge ( a British) structure administered by the organisation calling itself 'English Heritage'. Stonehenge was erected thousands of years before the Angles moved in. I regard this as another instance of 'dumbing down' as it makes a travesty of our history. Of course the subject is much more complicated than I have written so forgive me for presenting a brief overview.
    Oh, I think you did a fair job Glyn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I'm guessing Gypsies would bring the South Asian ancestry, Jews the Middle Eastern, Normans and Romans that Southern European, and perhaps all three the East Asian.
    Lets not forget that the Celts originated in Central Asia, and were pushed west (probably due to invaision from the east.)

    There's a central asian republic (I forget which one) many of whose inhabitants display Celtic features alongside Mongoloid ones, for example blue eyes, red-hair. Archaelogy has discovered Celtic burials, including painted walls (with "white" people in them) and plaid cloth

    It's too easy to believe in racial myths of purity.
    Last edited by PubFather; 05 Nov 06, at 20:05.
    Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - Scottish Motto

    "They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that dislike it, heresy; and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion” Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan


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    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Get your DNA checked, since you may not be totally as to what you have been brought up to believe!
    If the DNA Checking cost less than £1, then maybe I'd do it as a curiosity. But I don't care. I don't even know the exact difference between race and ethnicity, for example, nor do I care.

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    As I have said before, although I like to think of myself as Cornish my make-up is 50% Cornish, 25% Welsh and 25% Danish so I am a mongrel. It is only since the end of WW1 that people in the UK really had affordable mobility. Before that people generally tended to stay in the area of their birth, although the industrial revolution started the migration from the countryside into the cities. The more I think of this the more I realise that I can only talk in generalities as there are exceptions to every rule! Perhaps I should take up serious drinking as a new hobby

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    Ray
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    So long as one is not from Mars, I reckon it is OK.

    Green little fellows.



    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    Quote Originally Posted by PubFather View Post
    Lets not forget that the Celts originated in Central Asia, and were pushed west (probably due to invaision from the east.)

    There's a central asian republic (I forget which one) many of whose inhabitants display Celtic features alongside Mongoloid ones, for example blue eyes, red-hair. Archaelogy has discovered Celtic burials, including painted walls (with "white" people in them) and plaid cloth

    It's too easy to believe in racial myths of purity.
    Aren't Galicians and Bretons celts as well? IIRC, Galicians even have bagpipes.

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    Ray
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    inhabitants display Celtic features alongside Mongoloid ones, for example blue eyes, red-hair.
    Visit Gurez Valley in Kashmir, you will find the same. Fairer than the whites too!

    For a moment, I thought I had strayed into Europe!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
    Aren't Galicians and Bretons celts as well? IIRC, Galicians even have bagpipes.
    Yeah, AFAIK Bretons and Galicians were "outposts" not as overwhelmed culturally as some of the other Celtic groups..
    Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - Scottish Motto

    "They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that dislike it, heresy; and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion” Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Visit Gurez Valley in Kashmir, you will find the same. Fairer than the whites too!

    For a moment, I thought I had strayed into Europe!
    If I remember my linguistics - arent most European languages (certainly Romance ones) in the same language group as Indian dialects. The Indo-Aryan group, iirc.
    Really interesting stuff though...
    Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - Scottish Motto

    "They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that dislike it, heresy; and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion” Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan


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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    I always thought "English" is a nationality, like American.

    As glyn said, the English isles have been invaded many times by people from mainland Europe, and the natives were themselves from the continent, so there really isn't such a thing as "pure English" unless the definition is "one who was born and raised in Enland."

    I remember Aryan on this board was arguing for racial purity of certain people. In fact I think he was convinced of his own purity (I forgot what group). I told him "pure bred means inbred." He wasn't too amused.
    ace009 likes this.
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