Will the Union see its 300th birthday?

**Ray** · 25 Oct 06,, 17:04

Will the Union see its 300th birthday?

By Alan Cochrane
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 25/10/2006

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Is the United Kingdom heading for fragmentation with the secession of Scotland from the Union, even as it prepares to celebrate its 300th anniversary next year? And if it is, should those who make up the vast bulk of its population - the English - give a damn?

The questions arise following a series of astonishing events, beginning 10 days ago when nearly 1,200 delegates packed the new Concert Hall in Perth - the biggest gathering at a political conference that Scotland has seen in recent memory - to hear Alex Salmond, the leader of the Scottish National Party, deliver his keynote address to his annual conference. His strident call for the break-up of the United Kingdom was cheered to the echo by his adoring audience.

Nothing new there, but what was surprising was what happened next. Two days later, Sir Tom Farmer, the founder of the Kwik Fit chain of exhaust and tyre depots, told the world that Scottish independence was "inevitable".

His words followed hard on the heels of the announcement by this self-same self-made man that he was donating £100,000 to the SNP's coffers to help it fight next year's elections to the Edinburgh parliament. He is not alone. Thanks to big donations from emigré Scots, the most famous of all being Sir Sean Connery, the nationalists reckon that they will have at least as much to spend next May as Labour.

On the same day as Sir Tom's prediction came another extraordinary intervention, not from a captain of industry, but a prince of the church - Cardinal Keith O'Brien, spiritual leader of Scotland's 800,000 Roman Catholics. The Ulster-born cardinal said that he would have no problem with an independent Scotland, if that was the will of its people and, significantly at least in the eyes of this observer, he pointed out that other small nations - such as Ireland - had done exceptionally well since gaining their independence.

Although they insist that it is not entering the political arena, the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Scotland enjoys a decidedly rocky relationship with Scottish Labour, lambasting the devolved administration for what it sees as the Scottish Executive's "anti-family" policies, such as those on same-sex "marriages", gay adoption and contraceptive advice to under-age schoolgirls. Neither Sir Tom nor Cardinal O'Brien has endorsed the SNP, but their espousal of independence has confirmed the growing trend towards separatism. The SNP is ahead in the polls and another survey showed a majority of Scots want to break away. The Greens and Scottish Socialist Party - both in the Scottish Parliament - also back independence. The Liberal Democrats want more powers for the Holyrood parliament and many Scottish Tories want a separate tax regime.

What's all of this to the English, you may be forgiven for asking?

There is a fond notion among the more rabid of my countrymen that the English oppose Scots independence. The truth is somewhat different. After we Scots bored rigid the rest of the United Kingdom's population for decades over our constitutional future, the English - possibly and understandably so that they could get on with their lives - said: " If you want it, take it … but please don't make too much noise about it, there's a good chap." And so the Scots, aided and abetted by English votes at Westminster, opted for devolution. However, in spite of this being a crashing failure and having improved the lot of ordinary Scots not one jot, there is a ferocious demand for more, not less, self-government.

Should the English care? Many do, to the extent that yesterday saw the launch of a national debate on the formation of an English parliament. However, if successful, this could be another straw that breaks the back of the Union.

Far better, surely, for people on both sides of the border to worry about the break-up of the most successful alliance between two former enemies that the world has ever seen.

These threats to the United Kingdom's continuation take place amid an eerie silence from the Scottish Unionist community. While Sir Tom Farmer has been writing his cheques, there has come not a word from the rest of Scotland's industrial and commercial scene. Could it be that the likes of the RBS Group - now the world's fifth biggest bank - Scottish and Newcastle, a huge player on the world's brewing scene, and Standard Life, formerly the world's biggest mutual, all based in Scotland, have been persuaded that independence might not be so bad for business after all?

Labour's point man in Scotland, First Minister Jack McConnell, is no match for the SNP leader. At Westminster, Alistair Darling and Douglas Alexander can't compete with Mr Salmond's instincts for the gutter of political discourse. On his day, Gordon Brown could wipe the floor with the SNP leader, but, like other Cabinet Scots, and as my colleagues Simon Heffer and Boris Johnson might aver, he may be too busy trying to run England to notice what's happening in his backyard. And as for Tony Blair, thanks to the Iraq war and every other vicissitude being visited on the Government at present, he is seen as the nationalists' greatest asset.

Home Secretary John Reid can easily match Mr Salmond's penchant for thuggery and no-blow-too-low style of politics, but pitching him in would turn the forthcoming election campaign into the dirtiest fight ever.

In defence of the Union, I certainly wouldn't object to such tactics. But I wonder if the English would wish to be anything other than by-standers in the coming battle. John Major predicted that, by voting for devolution, we Scots were "sleepwalking towards independence", so is it anyone's fault but ours if he proves to be correct?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...ixopinion.html

Is subnationalsim such a serious issue in Great Britain?

It was all very easy in ancient times when Scotland was a separate country, but today, in the world of globalisation and market economy, it will be well nigh impossible for any of the different people ie English, Scots, Welsh, Irish to survive. Coal and oil alone will make the independent "nations" survive?

I think the whole issue is immensely loopy.

**glyn** · 25 Oct 06,, 17:27

I support Scotland being able to rule itself, as I do Wales and Cornwall. Further, I hope England gets its own Parliament. There is nothing to indicate that wars would break out between the nations that constitute Great Britain, but each distinct if small country should have the right to self determination. I see the same countries working in harmony on many issues, but each would be able to legislate for the benefit of their people, not the whole of the present UK. They will be able to choose whether or not to remain in the EU.

**crooks** · 25 Oct 06,, 18:20

The scots are a separate people, as are the Irish, welsh and cornish people.

If they want freedom, england has no right to deny them it.

Breaking away from the brits was the best thing we ever done....

**dave angel** · 25 Oct 06,, 18:43

i don't think theres any issue about 'denying' it - infact conservative forums are full of 'why don't they fcuk off!' but there are issues about who pays for what.

amusingly the breakup of the UK might start with England declaring independance, at least financially, from Scotland. the Barnett formula (the bribe that keeps Scotlands public services better funded than England or Wales's) will be dead, and Scotland may well find that independence - whether financial or total - is rather less attractive than had been advertised.

**PubFather** · 25 Oct 06,, 19:33

Originally Posted by crooks

The scots are a separate people, as are the Irish, welsh and cornish people.

If they want freedom, england has no right to deny them it.

Breaking away from the brits was the best thing we ever done....

It's a common misconception that the English have actually tried/wanted to deny independence. To echo the comments of others - most English people couldnt give a crap in my experience.

I don't even think that there's are real debate at the moment - the reemergence of Alex Salmond notwithstanding. Salmond failed before - largely due to alienating former Conservative voters with a left-wing political agenda.

Scottish independence is a romantic ideal. It's not accident that support for full independence reached its zenith after the release of "Braveheart". It might work, but would certainly lead to short-term finnacial difficulties. I personally can't see any benefits. I'm in favour of devolution and a "federal" UK, most of the benefits with fewer of the problems.

**glyn** · 25 Oct 06,, 19:56

Originally Posted by PubFather

It's a common misconception that the English have actually tried/wanted to deny independence.

I have a mass of evidence that says otherwise.

To echo the comments of others - most English people couldnt give a crap in my experience.

Attitudes are definitely more relaxed about it than previously.

I don't even think that there's are real debate at the moment - the reemergence of Alex Salmond notwithstanding. Salmond failed before - largely due to alienating former Conservative voters with a left-wing political agenda.

Scottish independence is a romantic ideal. It's not accident that support for full independence reached its zenith after the release of "Braveheart". It might work, but would certainly lead to short-term finnacial difficulties. I personally can't see any benefits. I'm in favour of devolution and a "federal" UK, most of the benefits with fewer of the problems.

I can agree with you on federation, but the traditional 5 nations of Britain must be allowed self determination.

**Ray** · 25 Oct 06,, 20:34

I refuse to pay for five visas!

**crooks** · 25 Oct 06,, 20:44

Romantic yes, but not impossible.

Look at how we have done it, since Celtic tiger reared her pretty head we've had one of the highest living standards and economic growth levels in the world.

**PubFather** · 25 Oct 06,, 20:49

Originally Posted by glyn

I have a mass of evidence that says otherwise.

There is plenty of historical evidence, certainly. There is also evidence that "English" politicians have tried to the same. Not quite so much of ordinary English people. Besides, the Act of Union was exactly that (in terms of Scotland). It was signed by the Scottish Parliament voluntarily (well, with some very hefty bribes after the failure of the Darien project.).

NI and Wales (possibly Cornwall) might be slightly different, but not massively so, imo.

**PubFather** · 25 Oct 06,, 20:49

Originally Posted by crooks

Romantic yes, but not impossible.

Look at how we have done it, since Celtic tiger reared her pretty head we've had one of the highest living standards and economic growth levels in the world.

I didnt say impossible, just unnecessary.

**dave angel** · 25 Oct 06,, 22:37

Originally Posted by crooks

Romantic yes, but not impossible.

Look at how we have done it, since Celtic tiger reared her pretty head we've had one of the highest living standards and economic growth levels in the world.

the vast sums given to RoI by the EU for infrastructure and the daylight robbery known as the common agriculture and fisheries policies having nothing to do with that of course...

self determination means the ability to make ones own decisions, it doesn't actually require that one take a particular decision, just that one has the power to, should one wish.

i'd love to see an independant Cornwall, now that would be funny.

**Parihaka** · 25 Oct 06,, 22:55

Originally Posted by PubFather

I'm in favour of devolution and a "federal" UK, most of the benefits with fewer of the problems.

Seems like the most sensible solution to me.

**PubFather** · 25 Oct 06,, 23:12

Originally Posted by crooks

Look at how we have done it, since Celtic tiger reared her pretty head we've had one of the highest living standards and economic growth levels in the world

There is also a fallacy that Scotland could emulate Eire's economic success purely through independence, as though independence itself would be the catalyst. It might be easier to offer, for example, lower corporation tax rates in Scotland. Yet such things are a product of economic policy - policies that could be operated as part of the UK as a whole. They are not dependent on separation.

Scotland's economic problems can be dealt with many of the powers the Scottish Parliament already has, and with a less controlling central govt, more and greater powers could be devolved to the UK regions where they could be used more effectively to the same end.

**glyn** · 25 Oct 06,, 23:24

Originally Posted by dave angel

i'd love to see an independant Cornwall, now that would be funny.

Just look up Stannary Parliament to see that Cornwall not only has its own Celtic language (related to Scots Welsh and Breton, among others) but has had a separate parliament since antiquity. At present due to the influx of the English the indigenous Cornish number 40% of the population. Our house prices are among the most expensive in the UK, but the wages are lower than any other region. The one thing we neither want nor need is the ill-informed sounding off about things beyond their comprehension.

**dave angel** · 26 Oct 06,, 00:02

my house has its own parliment, but i don't suggest that it could function as an independent state.

the language thing is a little misleading - how many people speak it, and when did the last person who spoke it die?

the rest of your post shows exactly why - apart from being ridiculously small for an independent state - Cornwall can't function on its own (and perhaps, judging by the tone of your post, it shouldn't be allowed to)

getting all NAZI on the white-eyes are we?