Originally Posted by lemontree
no they don't... thats your galat femi... the moderate muslims are the ones that come up once in a while and give the Imam the birdie... but sadly the moderates don't even get one hundredth of the air-time that extremists get...
The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.
A mountain out of a mole hill isnt it?
The word "Vande" in sanskrit means "salute" or "salaam".
The word "Namah" means "to bow".
This controversy created by misunderstanding or deliberate mischeif is nothing but a non-starter.
Check out this link of A. R. Rehman singing Vande mataram, Maa tujhe salaam (Vande Mataram, O mother I salute thee).
Do read the whole Vande Mataram.....
its easily available on the internet. I would be offended if I had to sing to allah to show my love for this country, and I would expect the Indian-Muslims will also feel offended if they had to sing to Durga, to show their love.
Its quite similar to one comment made to me by a delhi-guy
"Dude, how come you dont know Hindi, you are not an Indian if you dont know Hindi"
Go figure, a language determines my love for the flag......shitheads
Last edited by Adux; 24 Oct 07, at 16:58.
Vande Mataram, Bankim Chandra, Sri Aurobindo, poems, 1stholistic.com, Holistic LivingMother, I bow to thee!
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
bright with orchard gleams,
Cool with thy winds of delight,
Dark fields waving Mother of might,
Mother free.
Glory of moonlight dreams,
Over thy branches and lordly streams,
Clad in thy blossoming trees,
Mother, giver of ease
Laughing low and sweet!
Mother I kiss thy feet,
Speaker sweet and low!
Mother, to thee I bow.
Who hath said thou art weak in thy lands
When the sword flesh out in the seventy million hands
And seventy million voices roar
Thy dreadful name from shore to shore?
With many strengths who art mighty and stored,
To thee I call Mother and Lord!
Though who savest, arise and save!
To her I cry who ever her foeman drove
Back from plain and Sea
And shook herself free.
Thou art wisdom, thou art law,
Thou art heart, our soul, our breath
Though art love divine, the awe
In our hearts that conquers death.
Thine the strength that nervs the arm,
Thine the beauty, thine the charm.
Every image made divine
In our temples is but thine.
Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen,
With her hands that strike and her
swords of sheen,
Thou art Lakshmi lotus-throned,
And the Muse a hundred-toned,
Pure and perfect without peer,
Mother lend thine ear,
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
Bright with thy orchard gleems,
Dark of hue O candid-fair.
In thy soul, with jewelled hair
And thy glorious smile divine,
Lovilest of all earthly lands,
Showering wealth from well-stored hands!
Mother, mother mine!
Mother sweet, I bow to thee,
Mother great and free!
In its original form it was an ode to bharat mata as a form of durga, but the congress when it adopted it took that in consideration and hence adopted the two stanzas which were considered not controversial at that time.
The word vande doesn't mean "I bow to" it means more accurately I revere or I salute. While Sri Aurobindo's version is taken as an official one it is because it conveys the meaning especially of the whole song the closest while retaining a poetic tone, one can debate if it is the exact meaning.
Most importantly its the term "Vande mataram" which is being debated as the remaining parts of the song (rather the stanza) only describe the beauty of the motherland.
Mother, I bow to thee!
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
bright with orchard gleams,
Cool with thy winds of delight,
Dark fields waving Mother of might,
Mother free.
This is the stanza which is sung as the national song of India.
I would not agree that it would determine the love for the country, but the issue here is the language or rather the word "Vande", I hope you understand. The whole issue depends on whether one thinks its meaning as bow or whether it is revere/salute.a language determines my love for the flag
Its strange what a play of words can do, replace bow with revere or salute and things change dramatically. Please note the word "bow" rhyming with the word "low" and you will realize why the word was chosen.
By the was as long as the singer doesnt believe Mother India as God, the song remains Islamic. It is a matter of personal interpretation and not the common one. I quoted rehman earlier because thats is what most muslims and even people of other religion think when they sing the song. I think that the popular belief matters more than what the official version is, atleast in this matter.
If someone is not comfortable than forcing them is not a good thing to do, however if someone is forcing others not to sing especially the ones who want to sing it, is also a terrible thing. I think it should have been left for the public to decide and should not have been enforced either by the political or the religious leaders.I would be offended if I had to sing to allah to show my love for this country, and I would expect the Indian-Muslims will also feel offended if they had to sing to Durga, to show their love.
My opinion is identical to the one of Congress leader Salman Khurshid in this matter.
"I feel sad when people try to impose Vande Mataram on those who do not feel comfortable about it. But I feel strongly against those who oppose it in the name of religion,these are people who do not understand the use of the metaphors or the use of the language."
Last edited by K Mehta; 25 Oct 07, at 10:29.
Write a new song, why create a conspiracy theory.
every american has to sing the star spangled banner, he/she doesnt have to sing "Born in the USA" by Bruce Springstien to prove his patriotism.
Same, Lets sing Jana Gana Mana our anthem, while Vande Matharam is just a song.
I agree, to your views, but then again it is an unnecessary problem.The word vande doesn't mean "I bow to" it means more accurately I revere or I salute. While Sri Aurobindo's version is taken as an official one it is because it conveys the meaning especially of the whole song the closest while retaining a poetic tone, one can debate if it is the exact meaning.
.Most importantly its the term "Vande mataram" which is being debated as the remaining parts of the song (rather the stanza) only describe the beauty of the motherland
Check again, we have muslim organization talking about the orgins of the song.
Why take such a controversial song, albiet with all history, its not worth trouble. This is not appeasement, but understanding their sentiment. I will not sing any song which describes my nation as allah's gift or christ gift, it may have been changed. But religion is a funny business.
Yes, dont anyone dare come in front and tell me, that I am not an Indian, cuz I dont speak Hindi. The official language of communication with other Indians as far as I am concerned is English, or they can learn Malayalam.I would not agree that it would determine the love for the country,
What do you say we issue a "Fatwa" against this jackass and their brain washing religious tactics they use against the people.
Opps, did I use common sense again?
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.
Considering "Born in the USA" is an anti-war song, it would be a bit surprising if people were forced to sing it.
I guess its my turn to give you some internet links, try Wikipedia.
becauseWhy take such a controversial song, albiet with all history, its not worth trouble."Vande Mataram" was the national cry for freedom from British oppression during the freedom movement. Large rallies, fermenting initially in Bengal, in the major metropolis of Calcutta, would work themselves up into a patriotic fervour by shouting the slogan "Vande Mataram," or "Hail to the Mother(land)!"
In 1907, Bhikaiji Cama (1861-1936) created the first version of India's national flag (the Tiranga) in Stuttgart, Germany in 1907. It had Vande Mataram written on it in the middle band.In wikipedia in second para of the sub topic controversies on vande mataram.why create a conspiracy theory.
In 1937 the Indian National Congress discussed at length the status of the song. It was pointed out then that though the first two stanzas began with an unexceptionable evocation of the beauty of the motherland, in later stanzas there are references where the motherland is likened to the Hindu goddess Durga. Therefore, the Congress decided to adopt only the first two stanzas as the national song.
Same, Lets sing Jana Gana Mana our anthem, while Vande Matharam is just a song.Find a freedom fighter Gandhian and tell him that, at 80-90 he will give a better answer to you than me.This is not appeasement, but understanding their sentiment.
Vande mataram are words that transcend religion, they were the words people died shouting during our independence struggle, they were the words that adorned the lips of our martyrs when they went and embraced death. It wasnt a hindu or muslim saying them, it was an Indian wanting freedom
"Vande Mataram! These are the magic words which will open the door of his iron safe, break through the walls of his strong room, and confound the hearts of those who are disloyal to its call to say Vande Mataram." (Rabindranath Tagore in Glorious Thoughts of Tagore, p.165)And so it shall have.Dr. Rajendra Prasad, who was presiding the Constituent Assembly on January 24, 1950, made the following statement which was also adopted as the final decision on the issue:
The composition consisting of words and music known as Jana Gana Mana is the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the Government may authorise as occasion arises, and the song Vande Mataram, which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honored equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it
While I would not have said that your love towards your nation depends on knowing hindi or not, it does depend on how much understanding you show of the diversity of our nation. This they can learn malayalam attitude..doesnt bode well, my friend (idhu sheriyallae). I have come down south learnt almost all south Indian languages, but still find it strange why Gujaratis or Bengalis dont have they can learn our language attitude, would have helped build camaraderie quite well, wouldnt you say.The official language of communication with other Indians as far as I am concerned is English, or they can learn Malayalam.
Why should love for country and freedom, be about something that happened before 1947.
Vande Mataram is a song which has very serious religious undertones. I dont expect all the people to sing it.
Why should i understand the diversity of my nation in Hindi,
if you respect diversity, then why the push and shove for Hindi. Why should camraderie be only towards hindi, why not malayalam. Culture Hijack
As I said before. Lets all have english, no controversies, nobody cares. And by talking english, on section in our country is not going to one up on the other.
Last edited by Adux; 25 Oct 07, at 16:11.
Its about understanding why your country is what it is, It is about why we achieved the freedom in a way we did.Why should love for country and freedom, be about something that happened before 1947.
Vande Mataram in the form currently adopted as national song doesnt have any serious religious undertones. Even I dont expect everybody to sing it, but I resent it being called an anti-islamic song, not just me even a lot of muslims do. Refer to salman khurshid's quote from the rediff interview in my previous posts.Vande Mataram is a song which has very serious religious undertones. I dont expect all the people to sing it.
Exactly asking a Bengali to learn malayalam is culture hijack isnt it, asking a Gujarati or a Manipuri, to learn any other regional language is a culture hijack as well. Tell me my friend how much of India have you seen?Why should i understand the diversity of my nation in Hindi,
if you respect diversity, then why the push and shove for Hindi.
Why should camraderie be only towards hindi, why not malayalam. Culture Hijack
Why english? vous ne parlais pas francais? People from Pondicherry, Daman, Diu & Dadra Nagar haveli and Goa are being culturally hijacked! I wonder if people of France talk with each other in German. By the way I would like to PM you about this culture hijack's historical origins I hope you dont mind.As I said before. Lets all have english, no controversies, nobody cares. And by talking english, on section in our country is not going to one up on the other.
Everything has relvence in time, their use at the time maybe ok, but not now.
One has to think about its origins, people are uncomfortable with it.Vande Mataram in the form currently adopted as national song doesnt have any serious religious undertones.
.Even I dont expect everybody to sing it, but I resent it being called an anti-islamic song, not just me even a lot of muslims do. Refer to salman khurshid's quote from the rediff interview in my previous posts
It has Hindu religious undertones, cutting some lines doesnt change anything.
So Hindi is the answer,Exactly asking a Bengali to learn malayalam is culture hijack isnt it, asking a Gujarati or a Manipuri, to learn any other regional language is a culture hijack as well. Tell me my friend how much of India have you seen?
Why english? vous ne parlais pas francais? People from Pondicherry, Daman, Diu & Dadra Nagar haveli and Goa are being culturally hijacked! I wonder if people of France talk with each other in German. By the way I would like to PM you about this culture hijack's historical origins I hope you dont mind.
I suggested English, its a widely used language,
and oh, in WAB we hate the French...lol
is it?
Is a Bruce a ***** hippie too
So since Gandhi has lost use and relevance, time to change him too. What about Sardar Patel? There are some people (not all) who think he was anti-muslim, would you remove him from our history because people are not comfortable?Everything has relvence in time, their use at the time maybe ok, but not now.
In a country like India my friend, people are uncomfortable with consensus, some are uncomfortable with Jana Gana, some with Sare Jahan Se.One has to think about its origins, people are uncomfortable with it.
I have given you my reasons why people, muslims included, dont think its anti-islamic. And the reasons why the song is as our national song which I think are much more stronger than the reasons against. Even yet they were accommodated and the song cut to two stanzas. Now removing this song completely is like removing a part of our history of freedom struggle.
I dont mind people not singing it, but I will resent it being called against any religion. That song from the time when it was composed is, was and will be for India and against its oppression.
peace
KM
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote
Share this thread with friends: