My Opinion of Islam - Page 6

**Shek** · 04-21-2006, 13:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie

Why are two of these exact threads active???

Because Insomniac hates Islam twice as much as anyone else!

sparten · 04-21-2006, 13:48 PM

Major, its not a verse its a hadith. As said countless times many hadith are in doubt and some out right conflict with historical record. This one IIRC is not generally accepted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shek

Asim and Plat,
If women are not of lesser value, then why the double inheritance, double witness, and double compensation rules?

Sir,
Pretty complicated to explain sir. It was one of the longest and most complicated of my Law School Courses, development of Islamic law.

Lets look at the seventh century century Arab conquests. From being a desert nomadic people the Arabs conquered one of the largest land empire in history. To govern it they were influenced by the laws of the areas they had conquered. The important influence was (and still is) the Code Justinian. Remember the Arabs in Muhammad's time were theoretically Roman Subjects, so it was a law familiar to them. Other sources were the Sanssiad Laws and local Arab customs.

Obviously in religious matters the Quran would predominate. Hadith (collected later, infact the development of Islamic Law was a major factor in the collection of hadiths) could be used for guidence if it was deemed "strong".

Now about 1000 AD 4 or 5 various schools of thought were recognized, each distinct. The law you refer to regarding inheritance are from the hanifi school of law. The question regarding inheritance is not as simple as you made it out under the hanfi school. Basically the Hanif school's law on inheritance is ridiculously complicated. many factors are taken into account, such as whether or not there is a spouse surving,size of holding, marital status of the daughters or son, number of children, whether or not there are any other reletives with an equitable claim etc. On the other hand the Jafari school's inheritance law is simplicity itself, all you hafve to do is if the spouse is alive the estate goes to her absolutly and then the children after her death, otherwise the children get it in equal shares. The Malik school is also different.

Pakistan, where the only real impact of islamic law is in inheritance, the Supreme Court has held that it is bound by none of the school and will make its own interpretation.

Also when you say "Islamic Law" you must find out which school it is from, and see what it is based on.

Asim Aquil · 04-21-2006, 13:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shek

Once again, I'm having trouble understanding how the above squares with Islam.

The exception for men to marry women of the book.

I personally doubt translations which have inserted words into the text using parenthesis, which were never said in the Quran.

Anyway it concludes at the end with "If you reject faith, its fruitless". And only virtous women are allowed for marriage, amongst the Jews and Christians... That too 90% of the Muslims men at least undeniably understand that the women would have to accept Islam as their faith and not just for marriage, but really believe in it.

My cousin sister married an American Christian man. He did convert though. Today hes a better Muslim than me... or her :D. (to be PC: It's not my place to judge).

Another friend of mine who married a malaysian Christian girl. When they were engaged he asked her to convert, she's like "Hey I was going to ask YOU to convert". He comes to us and is like "Wtf?". After busting his balls for a while almost everyone was like you care about religion more than her then don't marry her. Otherwise do it.

He married her :D.

The guy has not prayed in a decade! And brings up this issue when it comes to marriage? I guess just to be accepted in the majoritative muslim society.

Asim Aquil · 04-21-2006, 14:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amled

No, but in the context of the times we are living in, it is a fitting subject for discussion.
20 years ago it would have been political discussions that would have dominated. ie. Communism vs. Democracy and the like.

I don't know if you've realized this but it makes us feel like we are in an "US vs Them" situation.

Insomniac · 04-21-2006, 14:05 PM

Surah 8:55

“Lo! The worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.”

Surah 8:65

"O prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if then be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence."

Surah 4:34

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, gaurding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and bandish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever high exalted, great."

This is pickthall's translation, currently the most accurate Muslims translation of the Quran.

Not only are women inferior to men, but they must obey them and if they refuse to obey, men have the right to beat them.

Insomniac · 04-21-2006, 14:06 PM

Surah 8:65

"O prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if then be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence."

Surah 4:34

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, gaurding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and bandish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever high exalted, great."

This is pickthall's translation, currently the most accurate Muslims translation of the Quran.

Disbelievers lack intelligence, according to Islam.

Not only are women inferior to men, but they must obey them and if they refuse to obey, men have the right to beat them.

Asim Aquil · 04-21-2006, 14:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shek

For example, when I was getting married, my wife wanted to have the wedding in Old Town Alexandria.

Hmmm Isn't that the place the movie Exhorcist was shot? Or ummm where the incident actually occurred? Been a while but I think I've been there. The roads are all old style, like bricks or stone?

I even saw the window where the priest falls from.

**Shek** · 04-21-2006, 14:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparten

Major, its not a verse its a hadith. As said countless times many hadith are in doubt and some out right conflict with historical record. This one IIRC is not generally accepted.

Sir,
Pretty complicated to explain sir. It was one of the longest and most complicated of my Law School Courses, development of Islamic law.

Lets look at the seventh century century Arab conquests. From being a desert nomadic people the Arabs conquered one of the largest land empire in history. To govern it they were influenced by the laws of the areas they had conquered. The important influence was (and still is) the Code Justinian. Remember the Arabs in Muhammad's time were theoretically Roman Subjects, so it was a law familiar to them. Other sources were the Sanssiad Laws and local Arab customs.

Obviously in religious matters the Quran would predominate. Hadith (collected later, infact the development of Islamic Law was a major factor in the collection of hadiths) could be used for guidence if it was deemed "strong".

Now about 1000 AD 4 or 5 various schools of thought were recognized, each distinct. The law you refer to regarding inheritance are from the hanifi school of law. The question regarding inheritance is not as simple as you made it out under the hanfi school. Basically the Hanif school's law on inheritance is ridiculously complicated. many factors are taken into account, such as whether or not there is a spouse surving,size of holding, marital status of the daughters or son, number of children, whether or not there are any other reletives with an equitable claim etc. On the other hand the Jafari school's inheritance law is simplicity itself, all you hafve to do is if the spouse is alive the estate goes to her absolutly and then the children after her death, otherwise the children get it in equal shares. The Malik school is also different.

Pakistan, where the only real impact of islamic law is in inheritance, the Supreme Court has held that it is bound by none of the school and will make its own interpretation.

Also when you say "Islamic Law" you must find out which school it is from, and see what it is based on.

Sparten,
I'm familiar with most of the above. The book that I have read on the history of Islamic Law (N.J. Coulson "A History of Islamic Law") didn't dispute the fact that the Sunni medhab maintain the double inheritance rule and instead focused on the mind numbing examples that you gave above - I didn't take much from those, as reading it at 9 PM on the Metro isn't the best environment for tackling complex fractional math word problems

Which schools outside of the Jafari diverge from the double inheritance rule and what hadith do they use for that, or is it because the will can be made to whomever?

Jay · 04-21-2006, 14:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahsan911

When you translate, lot of confusion occurs, lot of mistakes occurs, the meaning gets changed, thats why its known that DONOT read quran in a translated language rather understand or learn arabic by yourself!

Pfff, what a bunch of baloney! You mean to say all the muslims in this planet know to read Arabic?? If not, arent they learning wrong Koran?

Quote:

Those who do this will surely get a treat in the HELL!

Pfff, those who slit others in the name of God will then get heaven??

Insomniac · 04-21-2006, 14:49 PM

Surah 8:55

“Lo! The worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.”

Surah 8:65

"O prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if then be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence."

Surah 4:34

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, gaurding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and bandish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever high exalted, great."

This is pickthall's translation, currently the most accurate Muslims translation of the Quran.

According to Islam we are nothing but stupid beasts who wont believe.

Not only are women inferior to men, but they must obey them and if they refuse to obey, men have the right to beat them.

Asim Aquil · 04-21-2006, 15:07 PM

You might believe so as per your own experiences, but I believe differently.

I say no Mullah on the Planet! Is a bigger authority than me on Islam no matter what, unless I personally in my own mind consider him to be one.

Difference is probably coz you've grown up to depend on a father or a priest for religious guidance. Many (not most, not a whole lot, but "many") of us are encouraged to dig deep into religion, question beliefs, find answers, reapply and make beliefs that can be Islamically proven AND we're free to question any edict, and follow our own way of believing.

Freedom to practice religion is one thing I found good about UAE. In Pakistan people would come upto you and try to talk you into praying the "correct way". Most people in Dubai when the issue is brought up say, hey they're at least praying right... thats what matters, not some subtle differences in hand movements up n down.

Also I must deeply resent and point out that you'd knowingly consider only the bad people as Muslims and just for the sake of winning an argument completely ignore the good ones?

2DREZQ · 04-21-2006, 16:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

That's in judiasm.

Muslims(and born again Xtians) both seem to have a BIG problem with "live and let live".

Actually, the VAST majority of us BAC's are live&let-live types. The virtually exclusive thrust of evangelization is to persuade non-believers and to live a righteous life as an example, and to not bring shame upon our Lord Jesus. There is NO recourse in Christianity to coercive conversion, there hasn't been for centuries. Yes, there was a lot of that during the dark ages & even into the enlightenment, but look at each example and you find somebody after gold or power and just using God as a cover. Don't judge us by the televangelists; they're almost all charlatans who wouldn't recognize Jesus if he booted them in the rump. (Toned it down a bit there...)
BAC's are specifically told in the New Testament that we are not better than non-believers because we did nothing to deserve salvation! It is a free gift from God out of his love and grace.
"For by GRACE are you saved, by faith-and this is not of yourselves (the faith), it is a gift of God, not of works, so that no man can boast." Ephesians 2:8

Asim Aquil · 04-21-2006, 16:59 PM

Anon · 04-21-2006, 17:27 PM

Posts from this thread appear to be missing.

Anon · 04-21-2006, 17:32 PM

Yep, definitely some missing posts. Odd.

04-21-2006, 14:05 PM	#80 (permalink)
Insomniac Banished Join Date: 07-25-05 Posts: 214	In Islam you are not equal, neither are women Surah 8:55 “Lo! The worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.” Surah 8:65 "O prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if then be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." Surah 4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, gaurding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and bandish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever high exalted, great." This is pickthall's translation, currently the most accurate Muslims translation of the Quran. Not only are women inferior to men, but they must obey them and if they refuse to obey, men have the right to beat them. Last edited by Insomniac : 04-21-2006 at 14:09 PM.

04-21-2006, 14:06 PM	#81 (permalink)
Insomniac Banished Join Date: 07-25-05 Posts: 214	In Islam you are not equal, neither are women Surah 8:65 "O prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if then be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." Surah 4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, gaurding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and bandish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever high exalted, great." This is pickthall's translation, currently the most accurate Muslims translation of the Quran. Disbelievers lack intelligence, according to Islam. Not only are women inferior to men, but they must obey them and if they refuse to obey, men have the right to beat them.

04-21-2006, 16:59 PM	#88 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	test

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04-21-2006, 14:49 PM	#85 (permalink)
Insomniac Banished Join Date: 07-25-05 Posts: 214	Surah 8:55 “Lo! The worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.” Surah 8:65 "O prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if then be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." Surah 4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, gaurding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and bandish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever high exalted, great." This is pickthall's translation, currently the most accurate Muslims translation of the Quran. According to Islam we are nothing but stupid beasts who wont believe. Not only are women inferior to men, but they must obey them and if they refuse to obey, men have the right to beat them.

04-21-2006, 15:07 PM	#86 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	You might believe so as per your own experiences, but I believe differently. I say no Mullah on the Planet! Is a bigger authority than me on Islam no matter what, unless I personally in my own mind consider him to be one. Difference is probably coz you've grown up to depend on a father or a priest for religious guidance. Many (not most, not a whole lot, but "many") of us are encouraged to dig deep into religion, question beliefs, find answers, reapply and make beliefs that can be Islamically proven AND we're free to question any edict, and follow our own way of believing. Freedom to practice religion is one thing I found good about UAE. In Pakistan people would come upto you and try to talk you into praying the "correct way". Most people in Dubai when the issue is brought up say, hey they're at least praying right... thats what matters, not some subtle differences in hand movements up n down. Also I must deeply resent and point out that you'd knowingly consider only the bad people as Muslims and just for the sake of winning an argument completely ignore the good ones?

04-21-2006, 17:27 PM	#89 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Posts from this thread appear to be missing.

04-21-2006, 17:32 PM	#90 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Yep, definitely some missing posts. Odd.

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