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Thread: Europe on the precipice of collapse?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    Spare me the creation myth bull. Why can't you just say they left because they were poor, or starving, or religious fundamentalists that nobody liked, or whatever? Always got to make out like Americans are special, even before they became Americans.
    It takes someone special to climb in a wooden sailing ship and brave the N.Atlantic in 1587(or whenever) to seek the FREEDOM to live their lives how they want. The dangerous journey across the ocean was the EASY part, compared to once they got here.

    Americans are a slice of all of humanity, peoples from nearly every nation on earth living in relative peace with great prosperity for nearly all(even the "poor" in america are 1000x better off than they are in Somalia or Cambodia).

    Americans ARE, and always have been, a hardier more adventurous lot on average than europeans- or their parent country as a whole, just by their very nature.

    That's an obvious fact, and explains America's utterly unmatched innovations.

    You can accept it as such, or you can live in denial and look like an excuse-offering, jealous blabbermouth when you debate the grown-ups on message boards.
    Last edited by Bill; 13 Apr 06, at 15:22.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    When was the last time a European nation or leader DID choose peace any price?
    Humiliation for French government

    Trade unions and protesters in France are claiming victory after the French government performed a complete U-turn on its controversial youth jobs law.

    On Monday, the French government said it would withdraw the law, which would have allowed employers to sack anyone under the age of 26 within the first two years of their employment.

    The measure had provoked weeks of protests, until finally, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin conceded defeat and said he would find other ways of reducing the numbers of young jobless.

    This was a humiliating climbdown for Mr de Villepin, who had staked his political reputation on pushing through what initially seemed like a minor reform to a wider law on equal job opportunities for the disadvantaged.

    The youth jobs law, the CPE, was aimed at helping youngsters in the troubled suburbs find jobs, after anger over high unemployment exploded into rioting last November.

    Yet these reforms unleashed almost equally vociferous anger across France, from mainly middle-class students who feared their future job security - and the jobs for life many of their parents had enjoyed - was being fatally undermined by the French government.

    Over the past months, the French trade unions called out millions onto the streets in support of the students, with the demonstrations culminating in what the unions claimed were three million people marching in protest last week, though the police put the figure at half that number.

    On this issue, the unions found a new voice, ultimately forcing President Jacques Chirac to back down - and Mr de Villepin with him.

    On Monday, Mr de Villepin did his best to paint this climbdown as the actions of a government and a prime minister listening to the French people.

    "I wanted to act fast on joblessness, because the dramatic situation and the despair of many young people made it vital," he said.

    "Initially, I wanted to put forward a strong solution. Not everyone understood that, and I regret it. The dialogue is now open and we should not close it again. This crisis reveals a deep anxiety in France, as much as a desire for modernisation."

    Yet student leaders Victor Vidilles and Nabila Ramdani say Mr de Villepin's withdrawal of the law was only a first step, with more student protests planned for Tuesday to keep up the pressure on the French government as it formulates a new proposal this week.

    "It's not enough because there is still a high unemployment rate in France," said Mr Vidilles.

    "We have to be extremely vigilant, and make sure that the government helps everyone - not just students - overcome the serious problem of unemployment here."

    "This is the first battle we have won, but not the whole war," she tells me outside Place de la Sorbonne, which is still fenced off by French police guarding the square against further student sit-ins.

    "We want to know exactly what proposals will be put forward by the government - and now that a real dialogue is possible, to discuss exactly what future the government can offer to young people."

    Dominique de Villepin had wanted to show that he was a strong leader, who could push through reform in order to be seen as a serious presidential candidate for the right next year.

    With this U-turn, almost all hope of that has now disappeared - along with any belief that Mr Chirac might use the final year of his presidency to try to reform the French economy and to liberalise France's labour market, as many on the right in France believe is necessary.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4897820.stm
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    OK Dale, is this phrase acceptable to you: “Ask Albanians, Croats, Muslims and Serbs what they did to each other.”?
    Failure to hire the proper New York PR Firm in full evidence. Isn't it?
    Chimo

  4. #124
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Failure to hire the proper New York PR Firm in full evidence. Isn't it?
    Yes Sir. I guess that’s the reason why I am writing all this… sometimes I realy think that I'm crazy because I'm truying to achieve impossible.

    Unfortunately, those idiots in government are still riding the same dead horse of international norms, law and other crap.
    For King and Fatherland ~ Freedom or Death

  5. #125
    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    And I pointed that I was talking about nations in whole
    I don't see where dalem was talking about nations as a whole. Plain and simple, unless you can prove that any of his examples were never ever victims in any way, you have no point...
    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    Why can't you just say they left because they were poor, or starving, or religious fundamentalists that nobody liked, or whatever?
    None of that changes what I said...
    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    Strikes me that America is at peace with all of these nations, perhaps because making war on them comes at too high a price?
    Yes, with many of them, and if you read my other posts you'll see I don't agree with that either. You asked about Europe, I answered. Your reply does not refute my statements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    SAnd a good thing too – otherwise we would have 5 or 10 Iraqs on our hands instead of just one.
    And in 20 years there would be no tyrants left for your grandchildren to worry about, nor millions and millions of dead and enslaved from those regimes. Pay now, or pay later when the costs are higher, your choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    You, and others, have repeatedly stated or implied that the people of the US are less prone to violence, persecution etc and therefore superior to the people of Europe.
    Actually, in relation to this thread, my original statement was that Europe's history durring times of economic failures was punctuated by extreme violence. You can try to prove that wrong if you wish, you won't be able to, but nothing that the USA has ever done will change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    Who is arrogant?
    People who try to hide their failings by pointing out the failings of others?
    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    I realy think that I'm crazy because I'm truying to achieve impossible.
    In this case, at least to me, it seems you're arguing against something nobody has stated.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
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    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    Americans ARE, and always have been, a hardier more adventurous lot on average than europeans- or their parent country as a whole, just by their very nature. .
    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    That's an obvious fact, and explains America's utterly unmatched innovations.
    .
    You are now verging on the completely ridiculous, and this stuff is totally unquantifiable. Are you trying to tell me that you believe some farmer in Iowa, or a clerk in a mall in Michigan, is ‘hardier’ and ‘more adventurous’ than their equivalents in Britain or France just because his ancestors got on a boat 200 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    You can accept it as such, or you can live in denial and look like an excuse-offering, jealous blabbermouth when you debate the grown-ups on message boards.
    OK, wow, you have convinced me – anybody who refuses to agree with your fanatical and frankly disturbing belief in the superiority of your people is a jealous blabbermouth who can’t debate with ‘grown-ups’.

    Let’s see, how many prejudices about Americans are you trying to confirm in one sentence?

  7. #127
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    I don't see where dalem was talking about nations as a whole. Plain and simple, unless you can prove that any of his examples were never ever victims in any way, you have no point...

    In this case, at least to me, it seems you're arguing against something nobody has stated.
    Whether he was or wasn’t talking about that (and he didn’t said that to me clearly) I mentioned that with intention to show that Croats (as a whole) are better example for aggressor than example for the victim, and I backed up that with facts.

    Also thing could be putted this way - he mentioned French, Germans, Poles, and Russians, but he didn’t mentioned Albanians, Croats, Muslims and Serbs, but only Croats.

    In any case, even if I had a wrong impression, am still waiting his opinion concerning my proposal that Colonel quoted (or sentence above). Never mind editing now, damn edit expired.
    For King and Fatherland ~ Freedom or Death

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999

    And in 20 years there would be no tyrants left for your grandchildren to worry about, nor millions and millions of dead and enslaved from those regimes. Pay now, or pay later when the costs are higher, your choice.
    You have got to be kidding. I thought all you right-wingers prided yourselves on being realists. What you are talking about here is utopia, its sheer idealism.

  9. #129
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    OK Dale, is this phrase acceptable to you: “Ask Albanians, Croats, Muslims and Serbs what they did to each other.”?
    How about you stick to writing your posts, and refrain from attempting to edit mine, hmmm?

    -dale

  10. #130
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    When was the last time a European nation or leader DID choose peace any price? I am glad that Europe has not had to make that decision since WW2. And anyway, peace is often worth a price. War is very rarely worth the price.
    WW2 is obvious, then there was a long period where Euro leaders stood relatively strong in the face of Soviet aggression during the Cold War. Since the Cold War I can think of Kosovo as the next obvious example, then Iraq and the overall WoT.

    Look, earlier you were calling Europeans butchers - now they are appeasers? Make up your mind. Or - wait, this might be too much for you - could it be that no sweeping generalisation will describe a whole continent's history?
    Oh they appease until they see the only solution as mass butchery, then they have at each other.

    -dale

  11. #131
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem
    How about you stick to writing your posts, and refrain from attempting to edit mine, hmmm?
    I did. That's why I said "nvm edit...", just want to hear your opinion about this.
    For King and Fatherland ~ Freedom or Death

  12. #132
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    Spare me the creation myth bull. Why can't you just say they left because they were poor, or starving, or religious fundamentalists that nobody liked, or whatever? Always got to make out like Americans are special, even before they became Americans.
    But if we're not special, how come we run the planet?

    -dale

  13. #133
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    I did. That's why I said "nvm edit...", just want to hear your opinion about this.
    My opinion is in the words that I write and the concepts they convey.

    -dale

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    You are now verging on the completely ridiculous, and this stuff is totally unquantifiable.
    It is not totally unquantifiable to state that sailing across the ocean blue in the 15th-19th centuries was highly dangerous, nor is it unqualifiable to state that life in "Frontier america" was highly dangerous right up until......now(you try riding out a tornado sometime).

    Further, it is not unquantifiable to state that 'only a hardy soul' would pursue either course of action.

    Are you trying to tell me that you believe some farmer in Iowa, or a clerk in a mall in Michigan, is ‘hardier’ and ‘more adventurous’ than their equivalents in Britain or France just because his ancestors got on a boat 200 years ago?


    And because of the life they've lived and the upbringing's they've had ever since in those spartan places, absolutely. Have you ever been to Iowa? It's so sparsely populated that many towns lack hospitals, or even schools. It is almost like a life from a different time.

    Yes, i think they're hardier. Absolutely.

    Just as an Iowan is hardier than a NY stockbrocker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    OK, wow, you have convinced me – anybody who refuses to agree with your fanatical and frankly disturbing belief in the superiority of your people is a jealous blabbermouth who can’t debate with ‘grown-ups’.
    Disturbing or no(rolling eyes here), my observations are grounded in fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Popgun
    Let’s see, how many prejudices about Americans are you trying to confirm in one sentence?
    If i wanted to prove that the US was superior to Europe, person for person, i could simply point out the VASTLY superier economic performance of the US, or the VASTLY superior rate of innovation, or the VASTLY superior rate of technology growth.

    For god's sakes we put men on the moon 37 years ago, and no one has yet to even match that feat, not even mighty(lol) Europe.

    And on top of it all, the US fought the best Europeans had to offer in battle and come out on top.

    And that = European supremacy?

    Hardly.

    The US is a cross-section of the entire world population. Of course we're "superior" in diversity, human resources, and world perspective to any one small homogonous representation of mankind in Europe.

    Every time the US has faced a Euro power in war it's not been very pleasant for the Euros. The best any Euro power has managed was a tie. Meanwhile, the US has fought and defeated(or been largely if not majoritively responsible) several major European powers in open warfare.

    Spain, England, Russia, Germany, Italy, and France have all felt the might of the US in war, and at the time of battle all were major world powers(with the exception of Russia, but russia specializes in fighting from a position of near collapse, lol), and only England or Germany have ever even defeated America in specific battle, let alone in a war.

    Bow down on bended knee to the new Romans you dog.

    LOL.
    Last edited by Bill; 13 Apr 06, at 20:09.

  15. #135
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem
    My opinion is in the words that I write and the concepts they convey.
    So in this case concept is that we are all butchers and that there is no shortage of them here in Balkans as well as in Europe...?
    For King and Fatherland ~ Freedom or Death

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