Europe on the precipice of collapse?

**~~dalem~~** · 12 Apr 06,, 19:07

Originally Posted by Popgun

Wow, nothing like mentioning native Americans to get the not-native Americans hot under the collar! I’m not a socialist, nor do I think any of us are somehow to blame for what our ancestors did. I just threw that in to cause a stir.

This is pretty much what I was pointing out - the history of the WORLD. Not just the history of Europe. I'm not denying any of the stuff that happened in Europe, just pointing out that a lot of Americans get all holier-than-thou when they talk about war, and it's not justified. When in fact you are just the same as us.

See?

I disagree. There are still Indian groups to interview and worry about. They have their own land (sh!tty, cheated, and insulting land, but land nonetheless). They have nice casinos to make money.

Where are the Aztecs? Where would the Jews (and the rest) have been in Europe by 1950 if the UK and U.S. hadn't stepped up?

We fought wars building this country. Wars with natives, wars with neighbors. We won those wars (except for that whole invading Canada and getting our butts kicked thing), set borders and boundaries, and left it alone. No wholesale slaughters, no mass exodi, no purging or cleansing. So we still register on the "pr!ck" scale, but we're very low on the scale as compared to the Euros.

-dale

**~~dalem~~** · 12 Apr 06,, 19:13

Originally Posted by Popgun

'Hubris' is a term far more applicable to America than to Europe.

Really? In the last 200 years how many dictators has America produced? How many mass slaughters? How many nations has America spent lives and cash on to keep (or make) free? How much innovation and self-sacrifice has come from OUR shores as opposed to the shores of Europe?

If you have problems with your own flaccid state don't spit on our tumescence. There's plety of room for swinging johnsons on this planet - grow a pair and join in the fun.

-dale

**kNikS** · 12 Apr 06,, 19:33

Originally Posted by dalem

Yep, I know most of that. Look, there's no shortage of butchers' bills over there. I could have easily typed "Serbs" instead of "Croats". My little statement doesn't need to be changed as it gets the meaning across.

-dale

No it doesn't. They are absolutely wrong example. Even if we try to measure up number or methods of buchers (and definitely number of people they murdered) they are far infront of others.

Point is, that even in the light of last wars here, Croats, as a nation, in any case shouldn't be considered victims and they can't be used in such context.

So except it is a bad example, your little statement is also very insultive to me, and in worst case you should delete it.

**Popgun** · 12 Apr 06,, 19:45

Originally Posted by dalem

How many nations has America spent lives and cash on to keep (or make) free?

Good question. Answer? Almost as many as it has spent cash and other countries lives on to keep dictators in power and the cash rolling in to American business. Like it or not, THAT is what American freedom means to lot of the world today.

Originally Posted by dalem

If you have problems with your own flaccid state don't spit on our tumescence. There's plety of room for swinging johnsons on this planet - grow a pair and join in the fun.

Some great imagery there, Freud would have had a field day with you.

**Shek** · 12 Apr 06,, 19:51

Originally Posted by kNikS

So except it is a bad example, your little statement is also very insultive to me, and in worst case you should delete it.

Delete it? WTF?

**~~dalem~~** · 12 Apr 06,, 19:58

Originally Posted by kNikS

No it doesn't. They are absolutely wrong example. Even if we try to measure up number or methods of buchers (and definitely number of people they murdered) they are far infront of others.

Point is, that even in the light of last wars here, Croats, as a nation, in any case shouldn't be considered victims and they can't be used in such context.

So except it is a bad example, your little statement is also very insultive to me, and in worst case you should delete it.

So to sum it up, no one can be a victim but you? Grow up.

-dale

**~~dalem~~** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:00

Originally Posted by Popgun

Good question. Answer? Almost as many as it has spent cash and other countries lives on to keep dictators in power and the cash rolling in to American business. Like it or not, THAT is what American freedom means to lot of the world today.

Ahh, but that's not an answer now, is it?

Some great imagery there, Freud would have had a field day with you.

Hey, my d!ck (metaphorical and otherwise) gets plenty hard - I don't mind talking about it. Sorry if yours doesn't.

-dale

**lwarmonger** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:11

Originally Posted by Popgun

The systematic massacre of millions has only occurred once in European history, perpetrated by a dictatorship under the control of a certifiably insane racist.

Twice. Stalin killed millions in his paranoid attack on his own people. And I highly recommend that you read up on the Holocaust. Many non-Germans were not only perfectly happy to get rid of their Jews, Gypsies, ect... they were ready to help.

Hardly a reason to tar all Europeans with the same brush. The ‘widespread mob actions’ you speak of were not widespread. In fact, they were ‘decentralized and extremely limited in scope’….

Expand your reading on the Middle Ages and the French and German backlash against the Jews around the time of the Black Death. Destruction of the French Protestants (which falls under both systematic and mob action), the expulsions of the Moors and Jews from the Iberian Peninsula, a number of "situations" in the Balkans, massacre and counter massacre of English Protestants and Catholics during their reformation period.

These are simply off the top of my head. America has never performed massacres on a similar scale, even with American Indians (when something like Wounded Knee is a major event with a few hundred dead... we aren't talking mass murder).

Might be changing, from what I hear?

No, not really. Look at my exact words, "nor one of near permanent descrimination against immigrants." Large waves of immigrants are nearly always discriminated against initially... however who distinguishes between Italians, Irish, Germans or Swedes now? Even Asians who immigrate here (Tacoma has huge numbers of Koreans who have been here for a generation... and substantial numbers of immigrants from Asia and Russia who have been here for less than that) and come from a drastically different culture and background assimilate within two to three generations.

I personally do not subscribe to either of these views.

I was not saying that you do. However a number of Europeans who have come on to this board (and some whom I have met here at college as well) do to some extent or another.

Europe's economic performance (in general) is poor at the moment, and it's self inflicted, can't argue with you there. I really don't see what military strength has to do with it though. America's economic and military strength is an inevitable result of geopolitical realities, which no rational European (i.e. - me) can question.

This is operating on the premise that arrogance can be justified to an extent by having something to be arrogant about. National strength (as created by will, military and economic strength) is something which can create justification for arrogance... the nation in question has earned the power, and thus the right.

The "we are better than you" attitude, while not necessarily justified, is explained by the fact that many disagree with how America uses (or abuses) it's role on the world stage, not the fact that it has one. 'Hubris' is a term far more applicable to America than to Europe.

I would disagree. America has a certain amount of hubris... I will not argue that with you. However we, unlike Europe, have earned that hubris by being (and paying for, in both blood and money) the role of sole superpower. If Europe doesn't like what we are doing on the world stage, then perhaps they should take steps to affect the situation... instead of simply sitting back and thumbing their noses at us.

You must understand, a lot of Americans (whether they agree with the Iraq war or not) feel that Europe is run by appeasers. Europe won't step up... except for dictators and tyrants.

**lwarmonger** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:13

Originally Posted by kNikS

Point is, that even in the light of last wars here, Croats, as a nation, in any case shouldn't be considered victims and they can't be used in such context.

I'm sure the ethnic Albanians love Serbia too.

**kNikS** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:43

Originally Posted by dalem

So to sum it up, no one can be a victim but you? Grow up.

-dale

Never said that. Infact I clearly expressed my disgust (in few other threads) and disagreement for all atrocities that butchers from my side commited (and that is opinion of majority of Serbs), and that I do think that they should be punished for that.

We Serbs are also very responsible for that butchery but we are victims too. And considering that there are several thousand of hundreds of Serbian civilians killed or banished form Croatia as well as those several thousands of hundreds killed in Croatian concentration camps, they aren't nearly the good example of victims. And that's why I asked of you to edit it.

**kNikS** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:44

Originally Posted by shek

Delete it? WTF?

Read my previous post.

**kNikS** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:56

Originally Posted by lwarmonger

I'm sure the ethnic Albanians love Serbia too.

Ahh... Ethinc Albanians. You mean those ethnic Albanians that commited ethnic cleansing of 200.000 Serbs from Kosovo, killing and kidnaping few thousands of them and destroying Serbian graveyards, churches and monasteries? Or those ethinc Albanians form Albania who settled in Kosovo in 1999?

Poor ethnic Albanians, they are going to get ethnically clean state for thier heroic rebelion against the Serbian tyranny... So they will be free to smuggle drugs, arms and people there and house thier brothers from Al Qaeda...

**~~dalem~~** · 12 Apr 06,, 20:59

Originally Posted by kNikS

Never said that. Infact I clearly expressed my disgust (in few other threads) and disagreement for all atrocities that butchers from my side commited (and that is opinion of majority of Serbs), and that I do think that they should be punished for that.

We Serbs are also very responsible for that butchery but we are victims too. And considering that there are several thousand of hundreds of Serbian civilians killed or banished form Croatia as well as those several thousands of hundreds killed in Croatian concentration camps, they aren't nearly the good example of victims. And that's why I asked of you to edit it.

Not gonna happen.

-dale

**kNikS** · 12 Apr 06,, 21:05

Originally Posted by dalem

Not gonna happen.

-dale

Ok, but fact are you defending with that?

**~~dalem~~** · 12 Apr 06,, 21:10

Originally Posted by kNikS

Ok, but fact are you defending with that?

What the he!! are you babbling about? I was illustrating Europe's propensity toward mass butchery as a solution to its problems throughout history. The nations and groups I picked are valid examples - certainly not the only examples, but valid nonetheless - of European butchery. There is nothing to edit.

-dale