Indian Atrocities in Held Kashmir

**sparten** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:08

Originally Posted by Samudra

The SCOP can hear appeals from NA despite a HO ruling of the so called Azad Kashmir.Therefore your contention is invalid.

Read what I have written again. The AJK High Court ruled that the present NA are part of Kashmir State of 1947/8, and thus would be included in the plebicite. It did not say that NA is part of AJK. READ IT CAREFULLY SAM.

As for Rathore, he is no longer PM of AJK. As for the voice vote, under the AJK Cosntitutions, rules of business, the PM can be removed by the elected assembly if he has lost the confidence of the majority. In that case he had.
You have had PMs removed that way, Deve Goda comes to mind.

PM of AJK

http://www.ajk.gov.pk/main/prime_minister/profile.html

Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan was sworn in as Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir on July 25, 2001. Universally respected for his adherence to principles, his courage, competence, and above all, his. dedication to the liberation of Kashmir, he returns to an office he has held before.

Born into an eminent political family of Kotli on June 1, 1934, he is the son of Sardar Fateh Mohammad Khan Karelvi whose name is synonymous with one of the first major uprisings against the repressive Dogra,regime in 1931. He, it was who led the popular agitation against an arbitrary tax on salt imposed by the Maharaja's regime. Three years later in 1934, running as a candidate for the All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference, he was elected to the Jammu and Kashmir Legislature, the Praja Sabah, from his home constituency of Mendhra-Poonch, an office he successfully held through the elections of 1938 and 1944. Later, he also served as a member of the State Council during 1969-70. He is remembered today as one of the pioneers of the struggle of the people of Jammu and Kashmir for their rights under the tyrannical and alien rule of the Dogras.

Growing up and receiving his early schooling in his native village of Karela Majhan, now in District Kotli and in Poonch city, Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan came to Rawalpindi's famous Gordon College from where he, graduated in 1956 before going on to the University Law College in Lahore to obtain a law degree in 1958.

He returned to Kotli to start a law practice and also formally joined the All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference, an association he has maintained with the consistency that has come to be recognized as the hallmark of his politics. He also successfully ran for membership of the local council, a position he occupied for eight years and during this period was also elected as President of Bar Association Kotli. In 1970, he was elected to the first Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly.

It is a sign of his personal popularity that he has been returned to office from his constituency in every election held in Azad Kashmir in the last 30 years, barring the years when he was President of Azad Kashmir. His brother Sardar Naeem Khan served as member from that area during that interregnum.

Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan was inducted into the Azad Jammu and Kashmir cabinet as Minister of Revenue, Forests and Finance in. 1972 and retainer: that portfolio for the next three years. He served as acting President of the Jammu and Kashmir Mislim Conference in the 1976-78 period 'and was elected President in 1978, a position he held until 1988.

In 1985, he was elected Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and retained that office for the next five years. He remained leader of the opposition in the Assembly during the next two years, before he was elected President of Azad Jammu and Kashmir for a five years term in 1991.

Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan brings to his office in his second stint as Prime Minister, a proven record of 'clean administration and public accountability. He is a tough but fair administrator, moderate as a politician and skillful as a negotiator, talents that would stand him and the Kashmiri freedom struggle in good stead at this critical point in history.

**Samudra** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:10

Read what I have written again. The AJK High Court ruled that the present NA are part of Kashmir State of 1947/8, and thus would be included in the plebicite. It did not say that NA is part of AJK. READ IT CAREFULLY SAM

The high Court of POK however decided that the so-called Northern Areas were a part of POK. Pakistan, of course, never implemented the POK High Court decision and had it vacated by the Supreme Court of POK which said that the POK High Court had no jurisdiction to issue any order giving the Northern Areas to POK.

**sparten** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:13

Mumtaz Rathore was dismissed by the President of AJK, again as is his right under the constitution.

Nawaz Sharif did not dismiss him.

He is a free man

In fact he later became the speaker AJK Assembly, and met our PM at the time, Nawaz Sharif

http://www.paksearch.com/br97/Sep/4/RATHOREC.htm

ISLAMABAD: The speaker AJK Legislative Assembly and former prime minister of Azad Kashmir, Mumtaz Rathore, called on Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif here this afternoon.

September 4 1997

**Samudra** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:14

Read what I have written again. The AJK High Court ruled that the present NA are part of Kashmir State of 1947/8, and thus would be included in the plebicite. It did not say that NA is part of AJK. READ IT CAREFULLY SAM

Some more trolling Sparten ?

In 1993 the High Court of Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) ruled
that the Northern Areas should be incorporated into the
semiautonomous state of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and its
inhabitants given a right to be represented in the AJK
legislative assembly.

1994 Human Rights Report : Pakistan

**sparten** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:17

Originally Posted by Samudra

The high Court of POK however decided that the so-called Northern Areas were a part of POK. Pakistan, of course, never implemented the POK High Court decision and had it vacated by the Supreme Court of POK which said that the POK High Court had no jurisdiction to issue any order giving the Northern Areas to POK.

Indianembassy is a great and unbiased source is it not SAM

. They have taken two decisions and completly misrepresented them. I have read both decisions, my firm appered in both (our Muzzafferabd branch was involved in the AJK HC case).

**indianguy4u** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:18

Read what I have written again. The AJK High Court ruled that the present NA are part of Kashmir State of 1947/8, and thus would be included in the plebicite. It did not say that NA is part of AJK. READ IT CAREFULLY SAM.

Well u didnt understand

. Still even after an high court ruling, ur govt of pakistan havent integrated the northern areas with PoK. So much respect does GoP has for high courts. Where is NA accounted for in the link

Total area of Azad Jammu and Kashmir 13,297 Square Kilometers, 5,134 Square Miles)

**Samudra** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:22

Originally Posted by Sparten

Mumtaz Rathore was dismissed by the President of AJK, again as is his right under the constitution.

Nawaz Sharif did not dismiss him.

He is a free man

In fact he later became the speaker AJK Assembly, and met our PM at the time, Nawaz Sharif

.... Following this glorious tradition the last Muslim league government headed by Mr. Nawaz Sharif had dismissed Mr. Mumtaz Rathore, detained him and installed Sardar Qayyoom

How Azad is Azad Kashmir?

Originally Posted by Pakistan Peoples Party

this glorious tradition the last Muslim league government headed by Mr. Nawaz Sharif had dismissed Mr. Mumtaz Rathore, detained him and installed Sardar Qayyoom. But Ms. Benazir Bhutto's PPP has never been allowed to follow this tradition. When she came to power a couple of years ago, she was widely expected to reinstall Mumtaz
Rathore

Your guys say the same Sparten.

Same thing, two sources.

**sparten** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:22

Originally Posted by AJK

In 1993 the High Court of Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) ruled
that the Northern Areas should be incorporated into the
semiautonomous state of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and its
inhabitants given a right to be represented in the AJK
legislative assembly.

That statement was simply obiter dictum; a by the way statement. Yes, they did say that NA should be incorporated into the AJK, but they did not rule that it was.

Obiter Dictum statements are not binding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obiter
For the layman.

The only way for NAto become part of AJK, is for their to be a constitutional amendment, followed by an acceptance of it by AJK.

**Samudra** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:24

It was not a Obiter Dictum unless you have a independent source to back it up.

**sparten** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:28

Indian Guy For You, one final time

HC did not sy that the NA was part of AJK, it said that NA was part of Kashmir of 1948. Remembering that there was a quite seperate (to the Indo-Pak events) uprisng against the Kashmir Maharaja. So the issue before the court was

Was NA part of Kashmir in 1948? When the plebicite agreement took place. AJK court ruled; yes it was.

AJK court also said that it should be part of AJK as well.

**Samudra** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:31

You have given no sources.
Therefore your assertions are invalid.

AJK court also said that it should be part of AJK as well.

So what did Pakistan do about it ?

**indianguy4u** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:35

Originally Posted by sparten

Indian Guy For You, one final time

HC did not sy that the NA was part of AJK, it said that NA was part of Kashmir of 1948. Remembering that there was a quite seperate (to the Indo-Pak events) uprisng against the Kashmir Maharaja. So the issue before the court was

Was NA part of Kashmir in 1948? When the plebicite agreement took place. AJK court ruled; yes it was.

AJK court also said that it should be part of AJK as well.

Ur stated a/cs doesnt makes one believe ur work for a law firm.

First there was no uprising against maharaja. It was pakistani army & its supported pathans warlords invasion.

Second the directives of the court where on a/c of issue on hand ie "Is NA a part of J&K" & not any peblicite fundoo things.

**Samudra** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:38

The Supreme Court bench presided over by Chief Justice Ajmal Mian observed that the people of the Northern Areas had been agitating for their rights and there seemed to be “no factual controversy” over the “admitted position” that the Areas had been administered by Pakistan since 1947. The Court also put its seal of approval on the accession of the area’s states to Pakistan in 1947 as well as the claim by the local people that when Pakistan took control of the Areas, they were being administered by them and not the Jammu and Kashmir government. The Attorney General’s contention that the Court could not determine the question whether the Northern Areas are a part of Pakistan, keeping in view that a UN plebiscite when held will also include the Northern Areas, was rejected by the Court with the observation that it would have “jurisdiction in a case in which the government unconstitutionally wants to cede a portion of the territory, which is admittedly a part of Pakistan to a foreign power.”

http://www.khalidhasan.net/fridaytimes/2004-12-03.htm

**indianguy4u** · 28 Dec 05,, 06:45

link

[1] Pakistan has divided the parts of Kashmir under its control into two administrative units: Azad (Free) Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) of 5,703 square kilometers and the Northern Areas (NA) of 72,496 square kilometers. (The total area of the state of Jammu and Kashmir is 222,236 square kilometers. Pakistan controls approximately 78,000 square kilometers of the state.)

AJK, with an estimated population of 2.5 million, comprises six districts of Muzaffarabad, Mirpur, Kotli, Poonch, Bagh and Bhimber. The NA consist of the northwestern part of the erstwhile J&K state wedged between Afghanistan, North West Frontier Province in Pakistan and Xinjiang in China. It has a population of 2.8 million and has been divided administratively into the five districts of Gilgit, Shardu, Diamir, Ghizer and Ghanche.

The NA are described as a kaleidoscope of ethnic groups (Baltis, Shins, Yashkuns, Mughals, Kashmiris, Pathans, Ladakhis and Turks), of languages (Balti, Shina, Burushashki, Khowar, Wakhi, Turki, Tibeti, Pusto and Urdu) and sects (Shi'ites, Sunnis, Ismailis and Nurbakshis). Shi'ites constitute about 55% of the population, Sunnis 25%, Ismailis 15% and Nurbakhshis 5%.

AJK has always claimed the NA a part of the territory controlled by it in 1947. The NA have, however, been annexed by Pakistan and are under its administration, described by dissidents as "colonial and repressive". Regardless of their distinct cultural and historical identities, the dissidents point out, sub-units such as Nagar and Yasin have been unilaterally integrated within new district boundaries.

Many people in Pakistan and AJK have urged that the NA be treated as part of AJK. When the interim constitution of Azad Kashmir was proclaimed in 1947, the Muzaffarabad government took the line that the Karachi Agreement, which had temporarily placed the NA under the control of Pakistan, had lapsed and that this region should de jure and de facto revert to Azad Kashmir, to which it legitimately belonged. The federal government of Pakistan resisted that effort and has maintained that the NA are an integral part of Pakistan.

Pakistan maintains an ambivalent stand over the status of the NA in the context of its demand for the resolution of the "Kashmir issue" through a plebiscite as per United Nations resolutions of 1948. It has never clearly defined the constitutional status of the NA. Pakistan clearly desires to integrate the NA into Pakistan, distinguishing it from AJK. It seeks to differentiate between the NA and Kashmir in the expectation that, in case such a plebiscite is ever held, the NA would vote for Pakistan.

Nothing could make Pakistani intentions regarding Kashmir clearer than the ambiguity about the NA. Pakistan would clearly like to keep this mountainous portion of the state in its own control, even in the event of Kashmiris exercising their third option of independence, the other two options being accession to India or Pakistan. {Why not it consists of 70,000 km}

Frustrated over the years with the stonewalling tactics of the government of Pakistan over granting autonomy to the NA, three public representatives of the NA, Malik Maskeen, Hajij Ameer Jan and Sheikh Abdul Aziz filed a write petition under Section 44 of the Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (POK) Interim Constitution Act of 1974 with the POK high court on October 16, 1990. In its verdict on March 8, 1993, the full bench of the Azad Kashmir High Court declared the NA to be a part of the territory of Jammu & Kashmir.

The chief justice of the High Court who delivered this judgment, now-retired justice Majeed Malik, heads a political party in AJK, demanding independence from both India and Pakistan. He gave visiting Indian journalists a copy of his historic judgment published in the form of a book. This book has become a kind of Bible for independence-loving Kashmiris in Pakistan. People quote chapter and verse from the book to prove that the NA belongs to Kashmir and not to Pakistan. This is a point to which even pro-establishment politicians have to show allegiance. It is difficult to find anyone in AJK or the NA who doesn't agree with the High Court judgment.

Regardless of the wishes of the Kashmiri people, however, the people of the NA are ruled directly from Islamabad through what is called the Northern Areas Council, which is headed by Pakistan's minister for Kashmir affairs. A chief executive, normally a retired Pakistani army officer, appointed by Islamabad, is the local administrative head. The council is headed by the minister of Kashmir and Northern Areas and meets only when the minister convenes it.

Complicating the Kashmir tangle further, Pakistan unilaterally ceded a part of the state to China. They concluded a "Boundary Agreement" in March 1963 under which Pakistan handed over more than 5,180 square kilometers of territory under its occupation to China, ignoring India's objections. Pakistan gave away the entire area belonging to Hunza, south of the Mintaka Pass, to China. India challenged the locus standi of both parties to negotiate and conclude an agreement in respect of the territory of the state of Jammu & Kashmir, over which India had sovereign rights. India protested to both China and Pakistan, indicating that it would not recognize the illegal transfer of territory forming part of the state of Jammu & Kashmir.

**Neo** · 28 Dec 05,, 07:22

Originally Posted by Gautam

Lets be clear, 1962 India was still under Nehru with non-alignment as its main aim and hence security concerns were very low on govt's list given the fact there was hardly any substantial investment in India's armed forces.

Nice explaination Gautam, but try to tell it to the Kashmiris who lost their land to China under Indian protection.

I can say dare anyone try to even grab an inch of our land today. I think Kargil showed everybit that things have changed and never again will we allow a repeat of 1962 fiasco.
Despite its strength and superiority even China would not dare try 2 engage in a land grab as niether would it be worth it and also that china knows that this time India would not be a push over.

Well, its not about today is it?

Fact is that India lost Aksai Chin which is far bigger than the 5.180 km2 that we gave to China...