U.S. political impasse threatens world?

**Doktor** · 04 Aug 11,, 19:47

Originally Posted by snapper

Italy will go before Christmas; Italy is 'bound to default', says CEBR - Telegraph

Makes me wonder if it is good or bad for my biz as my company is Italy-oriented.

**Julie** · 04 Aug 11,, 20:59

Originally Posted by astralis

julie,....dem priorities got axed.

Dems also don't talk about that mammoth health care bill they passed through much to the protest of Republicans. The Dems have gotten enough the last two years, they need to grow up and give a little. There is many more than 100 Americans that want spending CUT and bills to stop being passed that everyone knows we can't pay for. We are being called "parasites on the global economy," which is downright embarrassing. We need tax reform, and we need it NOW.

**Doktor** · 04 Aug 11,, 21:06

To be totally honest if I was American I wouldn't be bothered being called "parasite", especially by Putin.

Also, I don't see it as winning if there is a better health-care or if the system manages to save some.

The thing is too many egos hold on stake entire economy.

**astralis** · 04 Aug 11,, 21:09

julie,

The Dems have gotten enough the last two years, they need to grow up and give a little.

why do you think they are compromising now? this is certainlyt not a democratic victory. moreover, i did think there was some justice in republicans stating that the Dems were playing dirty during the health care debate, but of course Repubs have done something similar just now.

and as i told highsea earlier...now that they've done this, do they really think dems are going to allow a Republican president a clean debt ceiling bill in the future?

We are being called "parasites on the global economy," which is downright embarrassing.

who cares what a two-bit dictator of a dying, relatively economically-insignificant petro-state thinks?

We need tax reform, and we need it NOW.

i agree.

**highsea** · 04 Aug 11,, 21:57

Originally Posted by astralis

...and as i told highsea earlier...now that they've done this, do they really think dems are going to allow a Republican president a clean debt ceiling bill in the future?

So have you already forgot that they had a vote in the House on a clean bill, and it failed 318-97?

Or that repubs in the Senate were pushing for a clean vote as well?

On Wednesday, freshman Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) offered an amendment that would raise the national debt ceiling by $2.4 trillion without any spending cuts.

“Many on the other side have asked for a clean vote on raising the debt ceiling,” Paul said on the floor. “Because I want to get along and go along, I want to make this vote available for those who want to raise the debt ceiling. I will vote ‘no’ but I wanted to do this in consideration with the majority’s wishes.”

“What it will show is that both Democrats and Republicans believe that we have to do something about spending and about entitlement reform and that will, I hope, build a critical mass toward a grand bargain before we run out of money,” said Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas).

Senate GOP to Demand 'Clean' Debt Ceiling Vote | Red Dog Report

Harry Reid wouldn't allow it, because it was DOA and he knew it.

He didn't want to send the same message that the house sent to Obama.

But to answer your question- no, of course I don't think democrats would do the same thing.

Originally Posted by astralis

...who cares what a two-bit dictator of a dying, relatively economically-insignificant petro-state thinks?

Hillary?

**astralis** · 04 Aug 11,, 23:08

highsea,

So have you already forgot that they had a vote in the House on a clean bill, and it failed 318-97?

with 236 of those votes coming from republicans...as you say, the whole "clean bill" vote was just a demonstration by republicans to show that they -didn't- want a clean bill, and that there was nothing dems could do about it.

**highsea** · 04 Aug 11,, 23:26

Originally Posted by astralis

highsea,

with 236 of those votes coming from republicans...as you say, the whole "clean bill" vote was just a demonstration by republicans to show that they -didn't- want a clean bill, and that there was nothing dems could do about it.

Yes, it's called voting. I think it's mentioned somewhere in the Constitution. If you go back far enough you can find this activity has also taken place in the Senate.

My point of course is that the republicans gave exactly what the President and Geithner was asking for, and it failed.

You asked:

...now that they've done this, do they really think dems are going to allow a Republican president a clean debt ceiling bill in the future?

I showed that the republicans DID allow a clean bill, it failed to win enough votes for passage.

So your complaint isn't that the republicans didn't allow a clean bill to come to a vote, but that you are unhappy with the way they voted.

You seem to think this is justification for dems in the future to not even allow the vote if it's a republican president.

Given the spiteful nature of the democrat party, I have no doubt that is exactly what will transpire.

**Blue** · 05 Aug 11,, 03:03

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by astralis

because investor confidence in the US was damaged just by seeing how close to the wire Congress went to not fulfilling its own deadlines/promises to pay.

Damage was done long ago. I still bet we lose our AAA rating. That is a big factor IMO.

if we had a Congress that was a bit more mature, it would have been easy to pass a clean bill, and then debate out the proper role of government.

Agree. But like the President, I applaud audacity, even when its not his kind of audacity.

what just happened was effectively kicking the can down the road.

Absolutely!! By both parties! The compromise disgusted me too.

from a centrist perspective, i couldn't be more disgusted at either party (although IMHO one wing of a certain party demands more appropbrium).

Uhm...oh...which one? I'm kinda disgusted with the one that didn't hold the ground thier constituents and logic demanded.

really, the solution is not that hard-- cut loopholes/individual deductions, make a new bracket for millionaires+, push back medicare eligibility, and you have more than enough to lower overall tax rates (including the corporate rate) and shore up SS AND reduce the deficit.

Very, very few on that hill have the real solution, and they are from any mainstream that may exist there now. The flock is on a highway to hell and doesn't seem to care. They are either stupid or have nefarious intent. That is all I can surmise from the lack of logic there. It confounds the even midly intelligent.

it's the political posturing, including using the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip, that makes this difficult.

Agree. I ask this, where does it stop? What is THE debt cieling? I am infinitely wealthy by govt standards. I'll just keep raising my debt ceiling!

**highsea** · 05 Aug 11,, 03:17

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Damage was done long ago. I still bet we lose our AAA rating. That is a big factor IMO.

I doubt it. There was a hearing in one of the committes the other day, they dragged in the head honchos of the rating agencies and raked them over the coals.

It was a clear threat that they considered these same rating agencies culpable for their role in creating the mess, and they better think very carefully about downgrading US treasuries. Lol.

**Blue** · 05 Aug 11,, 03:48

I think QE3 was implemented today. Anything else we can do to weaken the dollar? Do the congressional committees think they control the fed or the rating agencies?

Oh...I think this whole thing is about to get waayyyyy worse before it gets better.

**astralis** · 05 Aug 11,, 13:24

Yes, it's called voting. I think it's mentioned somewhere in the Constitution. If you go back far enough you can find this activity has also taken place in the Senate.

My point of course is that the republicans gave exactly what the President and Geithner was asking for, and it failed.

misinterpretation on both our parts; i meant it as in PASSING a clean debt bill.

i'm sure now that republicans have let the world know that the credit of the US is up for negotation for ideological goals, democrats will have no compunction now in doing the same when the time arises.

you shouldn't call it spite; they're just "doing what they were sent there to do"...

**snapper** · 05 Aug 11,, 13:32

Collapse is days/weeks ahead, not months as I predicted. Is amusing to see my analysis of July 11th (Question on Greek Financial Crisis) vertualy repeated by the BBC Business Editor today: BBC News - The origins of today's market mayhem

The government bailed out the banks but now the Governments need to be bailed out... Its like having a bag full of water and 50 small holes - the patch you have can only cover about 20 holes. So we bailed out the holes in the banks and thus made the holes in national debt bigger.

Italy and Spain likely to go next week; banks with their bonds are in trouble in again. They devalue and end of Euro... Europe goes into recession again. US export markets are reduced and US economy goes into recession. Probably the US will lose AAA credit rating and so borrowing money becomes more expensive, meaning they can't borrow or spend so much. The Chines export markets dry up and so on add infinitum... Most likely a form of 1930s protectionism will be introduced in places, mass unemployment may force this and I think we know the rest of the story...

**astralis** · 05 Aug 11,, 13:38

7th,

Absolutely!! By both parties! The compromise disgusted me too.

it wasn't the compromise that disgusted me so much as it was the size of the compromise. if certain members of the republican party were less knee-jerk opposed to anything that smelled of compromise, they would have won a considerably larger victory.

failing that, the default solution was to go to the area of least resistance, ie one that avoided the market turmoil but did little to solve long-term issues.

**Mihais** · 05 Aug 11,, 13:39

I made a very small investor account just to short the world economy.At best I may be able to buy a new laptop,although I might change my mind and buy a gun