US unemployment at 26-year high

**entropy** · 18 Nov 09,, 13:00

Originally Posted by zraver

Not an American only problem

Not a big problem in Europe.

if you control for black on black crime US murder rates mirror western Europe desite the plethora of guns. Black on black crime is a result of the US's ongoing battle to truly make the phrase 'all men are created equal" a reality. its a battle because several factions don't want it for several different reasons. But we are one step closer to Dr. king's "Dream" today than we were yesterday.

Then what causes black on black crime, apart from the "individual responsibility"? I do not believe in the latter.

Ah the misguided war on drugs. This little national disaster got off to its real start in the sixties when the right perceived the youth movement as a danger that needed to be contained and crushed much like communism. The US had a very real sense of being under siege then and the war on drugs turned out to be good politics even if it was bad policy- a danger in a democracy. However it looks like the tide is turning on that front.

I'm noticing. People on Board have more and more reasonable stances on the issue.

I think on them.

Europeans and Americans have rather big differences in looking on social issues. Individual responsibility and personal freedom are less important here.

A very common trait, much like eurotrash grabbing a wiki link and assuming that what it says is gospel and there is no need to look behind the curtain.

At the end of the day America is filled with people and all that entails good and bad. However we remain the best place on the globe for people of talent to come and pursue their dreams. We invite them in and make them part of us. They get to become American. In Europe they mostly stay non-citizens or second class.

There are some interesting curtains indeed. Even here on WAB I remember a school teacher telling stories on teenage pregnancies in her school. They are indeed high in the States.
In the same thread, we had Christfags telling people that they did not want governmental sexual education because it contradicted with their morality.
The curtains do have some interesting patterns on them, and one keeps wondering whether it is caused by differences in the outlook on life or not.

And yes, there is truth in your last words. It is not permitted to be good in Europe, since being good might "upset" people who are less good than you which they aren't because everyone is equal so by being good you discriminate against them. European logic, yes.

But if we talk about monetary gain for businessmen, I prefer it the European way. Being good in a trade does not mean one deserves the buckloads of money one receives.

But that, again, are differences in world view.

**zraver** · 18 Nov 09,, 13:52

Originally Posted by entropy

Not a big problem in Europe.

Oh yes it is- drug gangs, immigrant gangs, soccer youths, right wing neo-nazis don't lie to yourself.

Then what causes black on black crime, apart from the "individual responsibility"? I do not believe in the latter.

In a nutshell
1. the compression and isolation of black neighborhoods
2. job scarcity, inner city service jobs are actually a hindrence
3. welfare systems that discourage the participation of the father
4. a failed education system supported by low property values and subject to political unions and redirected funds in to majority white AP classes
5. They are young men with little outlets for what being a young man entails
6. hopelessness
7. A cultural mentality that looks at all of that and sees it was a war on them.

Europeans and Americans have rather big differences in looking on social issues. Individual responsibility and personal freedom are less important here.

Ya, American vets are well aware of how Europeans are shirkers, we had to pick up your national defense bill for 40 years while you spent the time playing and building socialist utopias effectively on our dime.

There are some interesting curtains indeed. Even here on WAB I remember a school teacher telling stories on teenage pregnancies in her school. They are indeed high in the States.
In the same thread, we had Christfags telling people that they did not want governmental sexual education because it contradicted with their morality.
The curtains do have some interesting patterns on them, and one keeps wondering whether it is caused by differences in the outlook on life or not.

America is a diverse society, but is our right that much different from yours? Sure the individual issues might differ but not the reactionary outlook to what ever that issue is.

And yes, there is truth in your last words. It is not permitted to be good in Europe, since being good might "upset" people who are less good than you which they aren't because everyone is equal so by being good you discriminate against them. European logic, yes.

That is insane.

But if we talk about monetary gain for businessmen, I prefer it the European way. Being good in a trade does not mean one deserves the buckloads of money one receives.

Why not, why can't you get the most for your contributions that you can?

**entropy** · 18 Nov 09,, 14:10

Originally Posted by zraver

Oh yes it is- drug gangs, immigrant gangs, soccer youths, right wing neo-nazis don't lie to yourself.

In continental Western Europe:

-drug gangs: not as such, there are crime syndicates but no drug gangs in the true sense.
-immigrant gangs: exist, but in no way in the same way as in the States. There is immigrant crime but few gangs. In fact, European white kids have started wearing Crip and Blood symbols.
-socces youths: yes, they exist. They are a minor problem in some countries, and large problems in, say, Italy. But they do not come even close.
-neo-nazi's: oh come on. Those 10 bald drunkards?

In a nutshell
1. the compression and isolation of black neighborhoods
2. job scarcity, inner city service jobs are actually a hindrence
3. welfare systems that discourage the participation of the father
4. a failed education system supported by low property values and subject to political unions and redirected funds in to majority white AP classes
5. They are young men with little outlets for what being a young man entails
6. hopelessness
7. A cultural mentality that looks at all of that and sees it was a war on them.

Similar things are starting to emerge in our cities due to immigration. The problem seems unsolvable, is this true?

Ya, American vets are well aware of how Europeans are shirkers, we had to pick up your national defense bill for 40 years while you spent the time playing and building socialist utopias effectively on our dime.

But we were the buffer zone.

America is a diverse society, but is our right that much different from yours? Sure the individual issues might differ but not the reactionary outlook to what ever that issue is.

Good question. How much tolerance could a Christfag denying his daughter sexual education expect in the States? In Belgium, he will be targeted by governmental institutions and the people will ostracize him.

That is insane.

Yes. It's even more insane when you start to look at the details. The last education reform in Belgium is somehow phantasmagoric.

Why not, why can't you get the most for your contributions that you can?

Because some contributions that are seen by the economic system as valuable are paid more than those that aren't. Right now the economy works like this: we make cheap crap and we convince the people they need it.
Those who contribute to the production of the cheap stuff are valued. Those doing something completely different have to be happy with a government fee or hope for corporate interest.
The latter isn't always possible, for example if one is a researcher in the social behaviour of Caledonian crows or a paleoantropologist.

I'm not entirely talking redistribution, but what I mean is that when politics is dominated by economics, economically loaded professions get more importance. Same thing happened in the past when the political systems were dominated by religious or warrior doctrines. One might lose oneself in the process.

Of course, the tax system in Europe doesn't always do that.

**zraver** · 18 Nov 09,, 15:19

Originally Posted by entropy

In continental Western Europe:

-drug gangs: not as such, there are crime syndicates but no drug gangs in the true sense.
-immigrant gangs: exist, but in no way in the same way as in the States. There is immigrant crime but few gangs. In fact, European white kids have started wearing Crip and Blood symbols.
-socces youths: yes, they exist. They are a minor problem in some countries, and large problems in, say, Italy. But they do not come even close.
-neo-nazi's: oh come on. Those 10 bald drunkards?

You might want to do a bit of research, Europe has a gang problem. Belgium might not, but Europe does.

Similar things are starting to emerge in our cities due to immigration. The problem seems unsolvable, is this true?

Current and promising trends say the best solution is mixed density housing to break the compression of the ghetto. Mixed race schools instead of minority dominated and programs to bring jobs, not just to the city, but to where the majority of people needing the jobs actually live or can get too.

But we were the buffer zone.

Not really, ICBM's respect no borders.

Good question. How much tolerance could a Christfag denying his daughter sexual education expect in the States? In Belgium, he will be targeted by governmental institutions and the people will ostracize him.

And in America a party preaching white power can't get elected. Geert Wilders would be reduced to a no audience internet radio fool like Hal Turner in the states.

Because some contributions that are seen by the economic system as valuable are paid more than those that aren't. Right now the economy works like this: we make cheap crap and we convince the people they need it.
Those who contribute to the production of the cheap stuff are valued. Those doing something completely different have to be happy with a government fee or hope for corporate interest.
The latter isn't always possible, for example if one is a researcher in the social behaviour of Caledonian crows or a paleoantropologist.

I'm not entirely talking redistribution, but what I mean is that when politics is dominated by economics, economically loaded professions get more importance. Same thing happened in the past when the political systems were dominated by religious or warrior doctrines. One might lose oneself in the process.

Of course, the tax system in Europe doesn't always do that.

Consumerism is the best system to keep the large and expanding population employed. Inside of that the individual has too choices follow their heart and take what pay it brings, or chase the paycheck and have their passions outside of work.

**Mihais** · 18 Nov 09,, 19:27

Originally Posted by zraver

Current and promising trends say the best solution is mixed density housing to break the compression of the ghetto. Mixed race schools instead of minority dominated and programs to bring jobs, not just to the city, but to where the majority of people needing the jobs actually live or can get too.
.

Zraver,maybe you know something I don't,but that's a disaster waiting to happen.It lowers standards and it creates even more segregation because those who can leave go away.Instead of having lower,middle and upper class kids in the same school,you'll have lower middle and minorities in most schools,upper class kids in a few elite ones.You'll end with an unacceptable gap in just one generation.Trying to rescue a minority you'll end bankrupting the country as a whole.
Simple fact is those who want to learn will learn at candle's light if they have to.If one community doesn't prize learning,as seems to be the case with your blacks,East Europe's gypsies or West Europe's immigrants it's the community's fault not the majority's.The minorities have plenty examples of success around them(and a few exceptions among their own ranks).Instead of choosing to live on welfare and crime they should start cultivate work and personal responsability.It's mostly up to them.

**zraver** · 18 Nov 09,, 20:16

Originally Posted by Mihais

Zraver,maybe you know something I don't,but that's a disaster waiting to happen.It lowers standards and it creates even more segregation because those who can leave go away.Instead of having lower,middle and upper class kids in the same school,you'll have lower middle and minorities in most schools,upper class kids in a few elite ones.You'll end with an unacceptable gap in just one generation.Trying to rescue a minority you'll end bankrupting the country as a whole.

The cream already goes to private schools.

What mixing does is broaden cultural horizons, create a shared vision of whats possible and breaks the compression of the Ghetto.

Simple fact is those who want to learn will learn at candle's light if they have to.

candle light could be construed as a tool. A modern education requires access to the modern world. A school that lacks technology, or even modern text books is failing in that.

If one community doesn't prize learning,as seems to be the case with your blacks,

100% off the mark here. There is zero evidence the black community as a whole does not prize education. Thier kids go to college at the same rates, they have a rapidly growing middle class etc. The challenges they face- language, access to services, poverty and the quality of educators should not be construed as a desire to not learn.

The minorities have plenty examples of success around them(and a few exceptions among their own ranks).Instead of choosing to live on welfare and crime they should start cultivate work and personal responsability.It's mostly up to them.

Examples of success only go so far if there are offical barriers to achieving it put in place. Such barriers very much exist in the US in a quiet but insidious form of instatutional racism. Money is directed away from minority classes to fund mostly white AP classes. Scholl funding rmeains primarily funeded by property taxes thus favoring rich districts, the talent tax on small schools and communties still exist and thats just edcuation.

Cities still invite companies to come to town and create jobs- but the enw plants are located away from public transportation hubs meanign blacks with lower rates of relaible transportation can't compete with whites for the jobs.

Lott retailers are clustered in poor and minority areas for sales and the proceeds benefit middle and upper class white kids.

If a black family does make "it", and they move into a white neighborhood, whites move out and property values plunge thus denying mom and dad equity to later use to send thier kids to college to keep the cycle of success going.

welfare laws designed to keep dad from contributing to his family and thus locking the family into poverty and dependance.

A refusal to recognize that AAVE is real and is not simply sloppy English.

The list is long, and it amounts to an effort by white America to preserve white privalege.

**Crocodylus** · 22 Nov 09,, 04:42

Originally Posted by zraver

The cream already goes to private schools.

I often see this happening in my city. If parents have the money, the usually send their kids to private schools. At least with private schools they need not fear for their children's safety - or poor academic performance. With all the news of children getting into fights and getting killed in public schools, private schools have become something of a status symbol nowadays.

What mixing does is broaden cultural horizons, create a shared vision of whats possible and breaks the compression of the Ghetto.

I agree with this statement, but even in the most advanced civilizations every human being holds on to a modicum of "tribalism". I myself come from a multiracial family, so the idea of mixing with people of other races is not completely alien to me. However, for the tens of millions of other Americans who've been raised under a definite set of cultural norms, mixing with people outside of one's race or social class is seldom appetizing.

candle light could be construed as a tool. A modern education requires access to the modern world. A school that lacks technology, or even modern text books is failing in that.

Ideas are exchanged at a rapid pace these days, so internet access and updated textbooks are essential.

Although, in some places (even within the US) studying by candlelight is often the only option for those seeking an education.

100% off the mark here. There is zero evidence the black community as a whole does not prize education. Thier kids go to college at the same rates, they have a rapidly growing middle class etc. The challenges they face- language, access to services, poverty and the quality of educators should not be construed as a desire to not learn.

Evidence that America still hasn't completely gotten past the legacy of racism. Even if Blacks and other minorities in America have it better now than even 20 years ago, the vestiges of the old order still remain. Something that has been in place for 400 years cannot be dismantled overnight.

Examples of success only go so far if there are offical barriers to achieving it put in place. Such barriers very much exist in the US in a quiet but insidious form of instatutional racism. Money is directed away from minority classes to fund mostly white AP classes. Scholl funding rmeains primarily funeded by property taxes thus favoring rich districts, the talent tax on small schools and communties still exist and thats just edcuation.

I notice that when immigrants come to America, they find that there is something of a social class structure - with the "gringo" at the top. As if to conform to this social order, foreign immigrants will often seek to be with White people - whether romantically or otherwise. (Noticed how many Asian and other foreign females get married to White males in the US?)

Cities still invite companies to come to town and create jobs- but the enw plants are located away from public transportation hubs meanign blacks with lower rates of relaible transportation can't compete with whites for the jobs.

And it's not just Blacks. Anyone without "reliable transportation" is often unable to secure a job.

Lott retailers are clustered in poor and minority areas for sales and the proceeds benefit middle and upper class white kids.

Family Dollar and Wal-Mart sell things for real cheap. Few other options are available when one has a family of 4, works long hours, and a welfare check is needed anyway to make ends meet.

If a black family does make "it", and they move into a white neighborhood, whites move out and property values plunge thus denying mom and dad equity to later use to send thier kids to college to keep the cycle of success going.

Are Americans still betting on real estate? A house can be worth tens of thousands of USD$, but using it as an ATM is a recipe for disaster.

Although, it is common for home mortgages to be used to put the kids through college. Scholarships and grants can cover only so much of the tuition.

welfare laws designed to keep dad from contributing to his family and thus locking the family into poverty and dependance.

That is insidious indeed - and that is just an understatement.

Hmm. I heard that these welfare laws are formulated mostly by Democrats. Didn't they support slavery during the US Civil War?

A refusal to recognize that AAVE is real and is not simply sloppy English.

After decades and decades of social & cultural isolation from mainstream America, why wouldn't ghetto Blacks develop their own form of English? Just look at the people of the Sea Islands off the Georgia/South Carolina coast.

The list is long, and it amounts to an effort by white America to preserve white privalege.

In that case, I can only say that I feel sorry for "White America". In history, change is the only constant. Being able to adapt to the change is what provides rock-solid stability.

**Chunder** · 22 Nov 09,, 12:56

Originally Posted by Crocodylus

I often see this happening in my city. If parents have the money, the usually send their kids to private schools. At least with private schools they need not fear for their children's safety - or poor academic performance. With all the news of children getting into fights and getting killed in public schools, private schools have become something of a status symbol nowadays.

My entire family went to private schools. I didn't perform great at all. Found the social system a real hindrance and fatefully precedence over learning. That being said, therewere a few damned drop kicks at my school, now and again I bump into them. Private education brings nothing if the kid cannot appreciate the value of education or has social issues sorted.

Private education might help you get your foot in the door, but there are plenty of factors other than it being private. Truth be told I regret that I could not make the most of the chance I was given, but every time I look back and think of the social stress (haves and have nots) I don't see how my performance could have anyway differed, and I suspect that the attitude is that sending your kid to private schools will take care of their education - when it does not. In most cases they do not provide for kids with learning disabilities either. AT the end of the day the mere remourse that I did not do better, makes me read more / try and learn more - according to the ups and downs I get.

Z's put a lot of thought into that responce. Ghetto's are a real problem. Truth be known urban planning & political policies have a lot to answer for in terms of likely future outcomes.

**Crocodylus** · 22 Nov 09,, 20:05

Originally Posted by Chunder

My entire family went to private schools. I didn't perform great at all. Found the social system a real hindrance and fatefully precedence over learning. That being said, therewere a few damned drop kicks at my school, now and again I bump into them. Private education brings nothing if the kid cannot appreciate the value of education or has social issues sorted.

This reminds me of instances where a pair of parents gets called to school because their kid was misbehaving. Often the standard response is something along the lines of But I know my child! He behaves well at home, so why would he behave badly at school? Often the parents influence school officials into favoring one group children over the other. Eventually, the kid realizes that his parents just want to see good grades - even if in reality he does not understand jack about what the teacher explains in class.

And it's more difficult when the parents are too busy with long hours at work to devote even 15 minutes to their children's educational needs. Eventually, the children themselves do not care much for an education either. Of course, there are some exceptionally determined to succeed in education even without parental involvement, but even with them there is always someone supporting their endeavor.

I believe that education starts in the home and nowhere else. How can the child be expected to appreciate the value of an education if the parents do not? This is one reason why Asian children tend to do well in US schools, whether public or private; Asian parents tend to place a high emphasis on education and will often go out of their way to ensure that their children complete their education - with high marks.

In addition, IMHO school should be a place where social distinctions do not matter. Discipline should be strictly enforced, whether the offender is the son of a bathroom attendant or the daughter of a prominent Congressman. When the causes of discrimination are removed, the exchange of ideas can be facilitated - which is what education is all about. Even so, I fear that nowadays mankind is not so noble at to aspire to that.

Private education might help you get your foot in the door, but there are plenty of factors other than it being private. Truth be told I regret that I could not make the most of the chance I was given, but every time I look back and think of the social stress (haves and have nots) I don't see how my performance could have anyway differed, and I suspect that the attitude is that sending your kid to private schools will take care of their education - when it does not. In most cases they do not provide for kids with learning disabilities either. AT the end of the day the mere remourse that I did not do better, makes me read more / try and learn more - according to the ups and downs I get.

Private school is seen more as a status symbol than as an actual panacea for poor academic standards. Imagine what putting "private school" into the Education slot of one's résumé (curriculum vitae) would bring to the mind of a potential employer.

I went to public school, but apparently social activities took precedence over education - especially in high school. My family was pretty much dysfunctional, so I was pretty much on my own when it came to education.

Although it is not always obvious, there does exist a strong notion of social class in the US. It manifests itself rather subtly, so that the victims of any discrimination are not aware of what is going on. Since it is social, rather than racial/ethnic, discrimination, the practitioner thereof is not subject to any punishment under US law.

I guess one could get the European out of Europe, but can't get Europe out of the European. Funny how just 50-odd years ago a European would come to America to find a "classless society". Nowadays, it's the other way round. Not too surprising since the old tendency in the US was to preserve as much as possible the old (northern) European culture and customs.

Z's put a lot of thought into that responce. Ghetto's are a real problem. Truth be known urban planning & political policies have a lot to answer for in terms of likely future outcomes.

I agree with zraver 100%. I've been to a ghetto more than once in the past, and it can be a dreary and dangerous place. Blacks and other minorities have often been marginalized from US mainstream society, thus necessitating settlement in the slums. Then again, Italian Americans and other European minorities had no choice but to live in the slums of New York and Chicago when they first began arriving in America over 100 years ago.

As for consequences, here's one in which any US patriot - or Federal official - would take a personal interest. If a foreign agency wanted to conduct subversive and seditious activities on US soil, they could just set up shop in some urban ghetto in, say, NYC or LA. The foreign agent will find people who have some valid reasons to hate the United States of America and will even assist him in his mission - albeit opportunistically. By simply making it all look like just one more ghetto gang war and getting proxies to do the dirty work, the foreign agents can avoid attracting the attention of the CIA or the US military.

So, yes, ghettos are a real problem - in more ways than one.

**tphuang** · 24 Nov 09,, 06:22

check Mish Shedlock's pieces on unemployment rate
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
interesting stuff. point being, don't trust in the gov't stats.

**Merlin** · 24 Nov 09,, 06:36

The World Bank chief Robert Zoellick explained earlier this month why he is concerned about high US unemployment.

World Bank warns unemployment threatens US economy

11 Nov [AP] SINGAPORE — Stubbornly high joblessness threatens to trigger loan defaults and drag on consumption next year, hobbling a U.S. economy struggling to rebound from recession, World Bank President Robert Zoellick said Wednesday.

Zoellick warned that the U.S. unemployment rate, which jumped to a 26-year high of 10.2 percent in October, will likely remain elevated in 2010.

"You're going to have problems with delinquencies of credit card loans, consumer loans, people won't be able to pay their mortgages," Zoellick told reporters in Singapore. "Some banks are going to continue to be troubled by bad loans."

Government stimulus spending will likely fuel economic growth through the middle of next year, Zoellick said. After that, consumer spending and business investment must take the baton to boost expansion, he said.

"If you've got large scale unemployment, if you've got consumers rebuilding savings and deleveraging, I don't think the consumer is going to play that role," he said. "What's the other source of demand?" .....