Thread: Capitalism or socialism?

The other question is, what happens to those who don't wish to live in such a society?

can the two exist successfully without any part of the other? Unrestrained socialism leads to stagnation and low productivity, unrestrained capitalism leads to social upheaval and disruption from gross inequalities. You need the markets to fund the social programs and regulation and you need the social programs and regulation to keep a lid on unrest that would tear down the markets.

A lot of the free market types on this site like to ignore the ugliness of the western nations before the rise of labor: child labor, slavery, lack of safety standards, sweat shops, use of state violence to enforce the will of the industrialist, destruction of cottage industry and reduction of skilled craftsmen to wage slaves, starving masses of laborers crammed into tenements within walking distance of palatial estates for small wealthy families etc.

Originally Posted by frogman

The society I talked about is not Chinese society,which is imperfect and even bureaucratic.What I talked about is an ideal but realizable society.
I have a dream.I dream that one day no one has enough ability to hire others because the assets gap between theirs is tiny.All of them are well educated and hired by the state after graduation.Economy will run according to the benefits of the state and the most people rather than few capitalists.Leader-Member Relation will be abolished.And supply should be adjusted and controled by the state according to demand. If managers or gorvernors fail to make the enterprises run better, labor union has enough power to fire them and hire better ones.Those managers fired by people will be arranged to other positions which they can be equal to.

1142 of my compatriots died in the year you were born to get rid of your ideal(more precisely,this late December days,may they RIP).Many of them very well educated and those that were employed were employed by the state(the others were conscript soldiers or to young).Supply was adjusted and controlled by the state(not that there was to much of anything).

Demands-I demand a Jaguar,a Porsche and 3 villas-one in Maldive one in the Canadian wilderness and another on the island of Crete.Now,tell me how do you plan to give these to me and to another 100 millions that want the same things,(without overcrowding the islands and without ruining the wilderness).If you tell me that my demands are not reasonable,I'll fire you and put somebody else,because your job is to make me happy and you would not be doing your job.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Then let me tell you this. I was in combat when you were borned.

I am sorry to hear that.One's grandparents are more stupid than his parents and his parents are more stupid than him.

Originally Posted by antimony

Here is a question for you. You say that this dream is realizable, is there any country, past or present, that you can show that livs up to that dream? If not, how are you saying that this is a realizable dream. I can show you a number of societies which are pretty good examples of funcitoning liberal democracies/ capitalist societies.

Was there one country you can show that lived up to free system before The English Revolution?If not,why do so many countries including the most developed country nowadays live up to that system but No country lives up to what was POPULAR before revolution?
If one has to be hired by another one to earn his living,the true equality will be destroyed.In addition,private enterprises must consider their own profit before they back some administration and they can't be responsible to the whole state and civilians without considering their own interests.Then crisis will come.

Originally Posted by Parihaka

The other question is, what happens to those who don't wish to live in such a society?

Well,to begin with,I have to say the system I dream is a dream but not a daydream.That is to say,though it can come true one day, it is a little early to live up to that system for any country in the world. The productivity hasn't achieved an enough high level,which is the reason why capitalist system is so popular nowadays and Chinese alleged socialism is just a capitalist-socialism actually.
Any social transformation has to go with bloody incidents because the transformation harms the interests of some people.But many former capitalists will be hired by people as managers at the very beginning and then almost all people become middle class.At last,both upper class and lower class will disappear.No one is so wealthy that asks others to work for him.

Originally Posted by Mihais

Demands-I demand a Jaguar,a Porsche and 3 villas-one in Maldive one in the Canadian wilderness and another on the island of Crete.Now,tell me how do you plan to give these to me and to another 100 millions that want the same things,(without overcrowding the islands and without ruining the wilderness).If you tell me that my demands are not reasonable,I'll fire you and put somebody else,because your job is to make me happy and you would not be doing your job.

It is difficult to jump out of your circle of capitalism for you.The reason why you demand salary raise is that the enterprise isn't yours.
You are one true owner among all true owners at that time.You won't benefit from that you fire him.
Will you ask your parents to supply a Porsche for you when many brothers and sisters are in your family?

Originally Posted by frogman

Any social transformation has to go with bloody incidents because the transformation harms the interests of some people.

So you'd kill them then.

Mr,you'll be an engineer,a problem solver,so solve my problem.I don't need your opinion on whether my problem is easy or hard to solve,I want a step by step solution to it.If you cannot do that now,then don't even dare to try in the real world.And don't ask questions back,because you're a manager in the new,wonderful world of yours and I'm just another one in the crowd that demands those things(disclaimer:this is just a brainstorm).

Btw,think again at your question,think of the answer you implied to be the right one(which is no) and then ask yourself ''why''.We'll see if you maintain your views.

Originally Posted by Parihaka

So you'd kill them then.

Aren't the idealists the most dangerous bunch?

Originally Posted by frogman

I am sorry to hear that.One's grandparents are more stupid than his parents and his parents are more stupid than him.

Son, you're showing more stupidity than generations combined.

Originally Posted by Parihaka

So you'd kill them then.

No.Most of them will realise their interests should come to an agreement with the state's and that of the majority of people.Otherwise,they can't continue to run the world.

Originally Posted by frogman

No.Most of them will realise their interests should come to an agreement with the state's and that of the majority of people.Otherwise,they can't continue to run the world.

Now, hold on one darn second here? Who is the state? Who gets to decide what's best for everybody and don't you dare tell me it's the government. Governments and states are made of people. Which people got the knowledge and the right to tell you what to do? Are they smarter than you? Do they have more experience than you? What gives them the right to decide for you ... when obviously you don't want to decide for yourself.

Originally Posted by Mihais

Mr,you'll be an engineer,a problem solver,so solve my problem.I don't need your opinion on whether my problem is easy or hard to solve,I want a step by step solution to it.If you cannot do that now,then don't even dare to try in the real world.And don't ask questions back,because you're a manager in the new,wonderful world of yours and I'm just another one in the crowd that demands those things(disclaimer:this is just a brainstorm).

Btw,think again at your question,think of the answer you implied to be the right one(which is no) and then ask yourself ''why''.We'll see if you maintain your views.

Capitalist ideology had been born before that system came true in the real world.