Thread: How quick can the US switch to electric cars?

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

Very insightful friend. Please note I said nothing of conspiracies, simply bad business practices.

On the EV-1, or Chevy Impact, as it was originally styled in the early 90s as a prototype that had me very excited & was based on a land speed record winning Sunraycer, recall that it was never for sale; only for lease. So, we have no way of knowing how it would've sold. There were literally millions of people on the waiting lists for leases of that platform, by the way, as well as many others.

You are correct. The EV1 was made available as a lease rather than purchase. I have no idea how that impacted the popularity of the vehicle but I don't think that's the main reason why it was unpopular. The car was just unpopular. Not many people picked one up.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I notice that in the above statement you use the words "us" or "we" five times in the first six sentences. I acknowledge that you may not desire an EV, that's fine but please speak for yourself.

I use "we" here as in the general public. There are always exceptions to the rule. I guess you are one of the few who would have had an EV1 if you had the chance (as I recall, only CA and AZ received the initial batch of EV1).

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

Also don't be so intimidated by people who know how to think for themselves.

I assure you not everyone shares your hopes & dreams in life, that's one of the beautiful things about America & about free markets. I don't know if you have but I actually had an EV so I'm not speaking from prejudice here, but experience.

That's fine. You like your electric car. More power to you. But GM, in order to make a profit, has to either raise the price of the vehicle or get tax dollars to subsidize its efforts. Neither of which is acceptable.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I agree that EVs may be only a niche market. That doesn't make them less viable or negate their superiority. They actually take less time to fuel since everyone has to park their car anyway but no one, with an EV that is, has to visit a gas station.

Niche means a price premium since the volume is lower. The problem with electric car is they aren't for long distance. They are commuter cars. Most of us have no problem with a car that needs to refuel after 100 miles. The problem is what if I need to go more than 100 miles? That just negated my substantial investment in the electric car. I need a 2nd car.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

With a solar charging stand at your work place, you would also never create any carbon discharge. I recommend solar panels at home & workplace. As I said I'm speaking for myself, not for you too. You may very well value your time at the gas station. I'd prefer to save months of my lifetime for other purposes.

My friend, who lives in Vegas (HUGE amount of sunlight) looked into solar panels for his new house. He and his wife ran some numbers and just couldn't justify the high capital cost of the panels. They need something like 20+ years to make it back, not including the interest/investment this money could make otherwise.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I stand by my argument that EVs have a great military application due to greater speed overall, max torque at zero RPMs, no big puff of black smoke to let the enemy know where you are and silent running. I hope you'll forgive my experience for shaping me toward an entirely different set of vehicular values than you as you can see.

Anyone who has ever had to short count a scout platoon in a woodline in M113 "Gavins" knows that you have to move expeditiously to evade the black smoke that will rise from the treetops & bring down artillery. The old timers used to joke about hiding behind the smoke. So when we changed from the M60 "Patton" family of tanks to the M1 "Abrams" you can perceive the tactical advantage with the quieter smokeless turbine engines. One of the M1 tank's nicknames is "silent death".

I have not thought of military applications of an electric vehicle. Maybe some others here can pitch in on the discussion.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I'm glad you brought up the San Francisco plan. If its like Israel then it is totalitarian not capitalist. Some of you read about this Communist EV Plan in WIRED Magazine this past Summer, its not free-market its more like a cell phone service where you pay for the product and then the usage too. It will likely succeed since now Corporations & tax/spend big government totalitarians will be able to charge for; Cars, their usage, batteries & the power to recharge them.

This is part of the top-down EV forcing that killed the EV-1. No on at GM liked the fact that the car was partly a response to The CARB's Zero Emission Vehicle law. That was overturned & the EV-1 went away.

Full Disclosure: I'm a shareholder in GM, Ford, BP-Amoco, Conoco Phillips & more, not to mention my defense holdings.

I think electric cars may have a future, but cannot be mandated by the government. Car companies have to put out small batches of small commuter cars that can use regular plugs in the house, not the special GM charging handle as in the EV1 (more capital cost). But in its form right now, we (the general public) do not care for electric vehicles.

The Chevy S-10 EV was offered for sale. Around 450 manufactured and about 60 of those were sold as fleet vehicles. The rest were disposed of.

The public does not want a short range car with long recharge times (more than 30 min) that seats two and has no space for groceries. I could have gotten the same thing from a Toyota MR-2 but not chained down by battery drain.




And OMG did I see the "M113 Gavin" in that post.

All hail the wise and Noble Sparky


There has been years of electric drive testing by the military. When you get a storage device that is both reliable in extreme hot and extreme cold weather let them know.

very insightful...

"I use "we" here as in the general public. There are always exceptions to the rule. I guess you are one of the few who would have had an EV1 if you had the chance (as I recall, only CA and AZ received the initial batch of EV1)."


You are correct friend. To my knowledge The GM EV-1 was only leased through Southern CA & AZ Saturn Dealerships. I was never lucky enough to even test drive one & I only saw one on the road in Hollywood.


"That's fine. You like your electric car. More power to you. But GM, in order to make a profit, has to either raise the price of the vehicle or get tax dollars to subsidize its efforts. Neither of which is acceptable."

I agree that tax funding & govt. mandates are bad. Higher prices are honest & acceptable like in every other niche market.


"The problem with electric car is they aren't for long distance. They are commuter cars. Most of us have no problem with a car that needs to refuel after 100 miles. The problem is what if I need to go more than 100 miles? That just negated my substantial investment in the electric car. I need a 2nd car."

I actually commute less than 20 miles normally so It would be fine for me, again everyone's different. The US average commute is less than 30 miles, to my recollection. Also I have no objection to 2nd cars, many people have them already, their not just for the very wealthy.


"My friend, who lives in Vegas (HUGE amount of sunlight) looked into solar panels for his new house. He and his wife ran some numbers and just couldn't justify the high capital cost of the panels. They need something like 20+ years to make it back, not including the interest/investment this money could make otherwise."

Have made several solar panel array investments. My last one was small & paid for itself in less than a year. Domestic arrays should pay for themselves in about seven years, not to mention variables in local green credits or power cross-levelling & buybacks from the local utility companies. Also the technology is outpacing itself exzponentially, getting more effecient all the time.

The reason I put panels on my house is simply for independence. For all your talk of "20 + years" may I be so presumptuous as to inquire, 'what's your plan for if others decide to stop providing power for you?'. Just a thought.

"I have not thought of military applications of an electric vehicle. Maybe some others here can pitch in on the discussion."

Glad to challenge with thought provocation.

"I think electric cars may have a future, but cannot be mandated by the government. Car companies have to put out small batches of small commuter cars that can use regular plugs in the house, not the special GM charging handle as in the EV1 (more capital cost). But in its form right now, we (the general public) do not care for electric vehicles."

Agreed

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

Anyone who has ever had to short count a scout platoon in a woodline in M113 "Gavins" knows that you have to move expeditiously to evade the black smoke that will rise from the treetops & bring down artillery. The old timers used to joke about hiding behind the smoke. So when we changed from the M60 "Patton" family of tanks to the M1 "Abrams" you can perceive the tactical advantage with the quieter smokeless turbine engines. One of the M1 tank's nicknames is "silent death".

WTF is an M113 Gavins? I know what an M113 is, and I know who General Gavin is, but what is a M113Gavins?

Until that point you had me, woo hoo go EV's (plus it makes 93 octane cheaper for me) but there is no such thing as an M113 Gavin or Gavins.

Originally Posted by zraver

WTF is an M113 Gavins? I know what an M113 is, and I know who General Gavin is, but what is a M113Gavins?

Until that point you had me, woo hoo go EV's (plus it makes 93 octane cheaper for me) but there is no such thing as an M113 Gavin or Gavins.

At risk of getting off-topic; I'm part of the Armor Tradition of Scouts who subscribe to the principle of all great fighting vehicles being named after great general officers. This principle was broken for the Stryker family of vehicles, perhaps because they're wheeled, I don't know. The M113 family, one of the most versatile platforms in the history of mounted warfare, can be used as an FV or PC among many other things.

At the beginning of my career I commanded an M577 & would later command an M113 Mounted Scout Platoon, among other assignments; Motorized & Mechanized. I always support the "personal" nature of treating platforms & vehicles with respect and giving them names & call signs all their own, even my POVs. In my different Cavalry units, we've typically integrated many American Indian names and I love the tradition behind "naming names" if you will. Forgive me for always being wont to shout out a name rather than a number.

I am one of the only people I know who still uses the Terms; "Patton Tank", "Abrams Tank" & "Gavin Track". Admittedly these are rare. Sorry if my extraordinary nature offends you, I speak mostly in terms of my own experience & may now be somewhat old fashioned.

"Gavin" is not official Army nomenclature, neither is Hummer, Truck, Track, Tank or Gun. I like the term as a term of respect for a man who pinned on his second star at the age of thirty-seven & would go on to suggest the development of the M113 & the doctrinal integration of light armor, armored personnel cariers, modularization & containerized air mobile strategy. This is very much a basis of our Logisical scheme in the GWOT. As the M113 presently patrols the deserts of Iraq, Mountains of Afghanistan and was the first US platform into Iraq & into Baghdad.

And yes the M113 Gavin is my all time favorite platform. Other favorites include the M4 "Sherman" Tank & M1 "Abrams" Tank.

Getting back on topic (feel free to initiate a thread on M113s if you like I could go on forever about them) I feel the EV has certain military applications, listed above, anyone have argumentaion or addition?

I prefer 94 octane or higher for my Cadillac & I also appreciate the lurking benefit that EVs supply in driving down fuel demand & hopefully prices.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

You are correct friend. To my knowledge The GM EV-1 was only leased through Southern CA & AZ Saturn Dealerships. I was never lucky enough to even test drive one & I only saw one on the road in Hollywood.

It was pretty cool to see an electric car. I saw one in a parking lot and talked to the owner/leasee (?). As he pulled away, he said jokingly "OK, here comes the loud part" and his EV1 whirred with minimal noise.

I also drove next to one on a freeway. It was quite eerie to NOT hear the engine noise of a car next to me at 70mph.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

I actually commute less than 20 miles normally so It would be fine for me, again everyone's different. The US average commute is less than 30 miles, to my recollection. Also I have no objection to 2nd cars, many people have them already, their not just for the very wealthy.

If I could only have 1 car, as many single people do or could afford, I want a gas car so I'm not tied down by the short range and long charge time.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

Have made several solar panel array investments. My last one was small & paid for itself in less than a year. Domestic arrays should pay for themselves in about seven years, not to mention variables in local green credits or power cross-levelling & buybacks from the local utility companies. Also the technology is outpacing itself exzponentially, getting more effecient all the time.

His wife is pretty savvy with numbers. She assured me that those panels won't pay themselves off, even with credits/reimbursement, for 20 years.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

The reason I put panels on my house is simply for independence. For all your talk of "20 + years" may I be so presumptuous as to inquire, 'what's your plan for if others decide to stop providing power for you?'. Just a thought.

I would actually pay a premium for that. Independence is worth something. What if the zombies attack and all power is out? )

I believe the best way right now is to go with hybrid cars. Get the public used to electric cars with a gas engine inside. At the same time, the popularity of hybrid cars will spur more research and advancement in battery technology. This in turn will bring down cost, extend range, and lessen charge time. Eventually, pure electric cars can be profitable and practical. But changes won't happen overnight. We have to have patience and see where the market takes us.

Hybrids good.

Zombies bad.

Sir, you might be interested in this:

Electric MINI E Bows at LA Show

Story Filed: 11/19/2008 4:42:54 PM EST
By Mike Meredith
New electric version of MINI Cooper offers MINI fun with zero emissions.

Already a lot of fun to drive and environmentally efficient, the popular MINI Cooper will soon gain even more favor with environmentally conscious drivers as the electric-powered MINI E debuted at the 2008 Los Angeles Auto Show.

Based on the MINI Cooper and powered by a 150kW (204 horsepower) electric motor, the MINI E will boast a range of 150 miles due to the use of a high-performance rechargeable lithium-ion battery. The zero-emission vehicle is nearly silent, with power delivered to the front axle through a single-stage helical gearbox.

Since entering the U.S. market as a 2002 model, the MINI Cooper has enjoyed tremendous popularity as a premium compact vehicle that delivers excellent fuel economy. Now, 500 select private and corporate customers in California, New York and New Jersey will have the opportunity to experience a completely emissions-free MINI.

With 162 lb-ft. of torque on tap, the MINI E will accelerate from zero to 62 mph in 8.5 seconds on the way to a top speed of 95 mph. To match the handling and driving enjoyment of the MINI Cooper, the suspension has been tuned to match the even weight distribution of the MINI E, which weighs in at 3,230 lbs.

MINI E will initially be available as a two-seater, with the latest lithium-ion battery technology specifically engineered for the MINI E. The battery unit combines high output and ample storage capacity in the form of three battery elements stored where the rear seat would normally be, leaving a small storage area behind.

Using similar technology as the power supplies for mobile phones and portable computers, the MINI E can be plugged into any standard power outlet to charge. Charge time varies depending on voltage and amperage, and for U.S. owners all MINI Es will include a wall box that can be installed to enable higher amperage to allow the MINI E to be fully recharged in 2.5 hours.

The BMW Group, which manufacturers MINI automobiles, plans to use the experience gained from 500 electric vehicles on the road in real-world driving conditions to move toward “medium term” series production of an all-electric vehicle as part of its Number One strategy.

http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autosh...entid=13432827

Some nice pictures too.