Thread: China's Household Registration (Hukou) System: Discrimination and Reform

Originally Posted by yeung3939

You talk as though watching the minority groups (and all the repression stuffs you love) is the main purpose of the system.

I have not said it. I only realised it. It is great exponents of China and events which led me to this belief!

Here is what an Indian who works in China and who is a pro China hand has to say:

It points out two aspects of Chinease rule. The first one is the governments obsession with appearance and the second is the strategy to control things. I will answer your question in depth.

The Chinease communist party rules like a military organisation. Each area has a party member in charge, who has to deliver growth. If he can show good growth an statistics, he/she will be promoted. Hence there is a vested interest in the growth, rather then the benefit to the peope. It is good in one sence, becuase the local in charge, is focussed on improvement, but the problem is longterm planning. The leader will try to deliver "spectacualr", which is going to be his ticket to a better postion. Hence the leader will force banks to finance growth at "any cost". Even if it means, forcing banks to finance loss making enterprises (which is a HUGE problem), overspending on showpiece infrastructure, maupalating statistics or simply controlling acess.

In Guangzhou for example, I was talikng to a girl, who runs a hotel business. I wanted to fix an appointment, but she said the bus will take at least 40 min (a 5 min drive by taxi). She seem to be doing fairly well, so I politely asked if she did have acess to a bike or a car.
The government had stopped handing out new permits to use bikes (and were not reniweing the existing ones, and small cars are not encoraged at all. There are very few small cars, rather you will see midsize and large cars (honda city class and above). Hence the way to make the road infrastructure adequate, the govenment had restricted the usage. Unfair for some, but very nice to a visitor like me (smile).
The same logic is applied to non, city dwellers. They live in factory compounds, where they get boarding and a place to sleep. But they do not bring over their famillies, as the cities could not really have supported the extra burden.
But in one way it is good, as the funds are channeled back to the ruaral areas, in stead of creating slum areas in the city. But what price can you put on a splitted family, that too for a few hundred dollars per month. What do you do when you cant feed the population? you enforce a one child policy.

The Chinease dilemma.
How do you reform such a system? The party knows all to well that it has to keep on delivering growth, or there can be severe unrest in the country. China does not have good mechanisms for allocationg resources. There is no leagal system with fair trals and how do you know that the party leader is doing the right thing? How long time would it take to create a leagal system, with prosecutors, judges and lawers etc?

A lot of people seem to favor or at least admire the Chinease dictator model of growth, without really understanding the dynamics behind it. They do not see the longterm effects of the model.

Out of the top 25 economies of the world, all are democratic, is that a coincidance?. Getting a democracy to work is very very difficult. It is a miracle that India, with its huge diverse population, has managed it. All the way from the panchayats to the central government, there is a system (not always functioning well, but at least it is in place).

Strangely India has managed to build the infrastructure that really matter, A leagal system, a free and fair financial system, the right of ownership, a fairly well functioning education system (kids do manage to get great careears out of it), multi party system etc. I do not think people realize the true value of thease institutions.
What India now needs to do, is to finetune and reform its beaurocracy, which is still living in the pre libralisation era.

A lot of writing from my side. questions are welcome.

Hukou is a total micromanagement of the people.

Micromanaging leads to a robotic existence and total control of one's desires, mind and physical, including biological, requirements!

Notwithstanding, it is fascinating to the military mind, which revels in micromanagement!

Originally Posted by Ray

The PRC govt is Communists and your shrill wails will not change its structure, policies and doctrines!

The Chinese, beyond the Communists, are a great people. Great inventions, social theories, thinkers, engineering marvels have emanated from China!

The Communists have ruined it all!!

You are just abusing the word 'communist'.

Originally Posted by Ray

I have not said it. I only realised it. It is great exponents of China and events which led me to this belief!

Well, cultural revolution also affected minority groups, so its purpose was to kill minority culture?

Is Chinese under the system received singnificantly better treatment than minority people?

To say that a huge system like the Hukou system is targeted at minority group is not different from saying that the cultural revolution was targeted at Tibetans.

Originally Posted by Ray

Here is what an Indian who works in China and who is a pro China hand has to say:

The article contains nothing new or special.

Originally Posted by Ray

Hukou is a total micromanagement of the people.

Micromanaging leads to a robotic existence and total control of one's desires, mind and physical, including biological, requirements!

Notwithstanding, it is fascinating to the military mind, which revels in micromanagement!

I have said this ten time or more. People aren't actually locked in their homeland. They can and do move, though at significant costs.

They aren't robots.

Originally Posted by yeung3939

"the hukou system allows the government to control and regulate internal migration B]
[I very powerful role of social ]"the hukou system has a less well-known butcontrol especially the management of the so-called targeted people (zhongdian renkou). Based on hukou files, the police maintains a confidential list of the targeted people in each community to be specially monitored and controlled. Such a focused monitoring and control of selected segments of the population have contributed significantly and effectively to the political stability of China's one-party authoritarian regime."



Why do you think the "Westerners"(Lao wai) do not think this is based on minority control




[B]Another function of the system is to watch targeted people. Still nothing to do with 'mind control'. Watch doesn't necessarily entail control of body or mind. The system is not used to make Chinese robots and serfs.

The words "targeted people" alone suggests minority people

Originally Posted by yeung3939

Which part of the essay tells you the system is targeted at minority groups?

As I have said above, the essay suggests minority groups being watched and reported on..erroneous it might be..but sinister in thought.

Originally Posted by dave lukins

The words "targeted people" alone suggests minority people



As I have said above, the essay suggests minority groups being watched and reported on..erroneous it might be..but sinister in thought.

I think we have some misunderstanding here. I accused Mr Ray of 'talking as though the whole system is designed to watch minority groups'. And he admitted this was what he meant.

'Targeted people' of course includes but is not limited to minority people. The Hukou system covers the whole rural China, and talking as though the minority group is the main target of such a huge system is very misleading (to put it politely).

Also, the article does not say minority people receive worse treatment than Han rural people.

Originally Posted by yeung3939

Also, the article does not say minority people receive worse treatment than Han rural people.

Not that particular article but there are plenty of other "treatments" of other groups to whet the appetite:

The Chinese government has ordered regional authorities to stop the formation of new qigong groups and to strictly control the activities of the country's estimated 70 existing qigong groups, a Hong Kong-based human rights group said Wednesday. The Information Center of Human Rights and Democratic Movements in China said in a bulletin that the State Council issued the order in a directive issued last month. The center cited worries about the large numbers of followers of qigong groups, which are similar to the banned Falun Gong group, behind the State Council's move. The State Council is the highest organ of the state bureaucracy. Chinese police have reportedly detained up to 36,000 Falun Gong followers since the July banning of the movement, which advocates an eclectic mix of Buddhist and Taoist philosophy with traditional Chinese qigong breathing exercises. The State Council has instructed regional police, civil administrative bodies and sports associations to ban qigong activities near military establishments, media and overseas representative offices as well as major thoroughfares and public squares, the center said. The instruction, listed under directive number 77, bans the publication and sale of books and audiovisual materials which deify the founders of the qigong schools, and prohibits the registration of new schools, the bulletin said. The public display of pictures and symbols associated with the founders of qigong groups is also banned under the government directive, it said. Authorities in the central northern province of Shaanxi early this month disbanded the training headquarters of the Zhonggong qigong group, which had 2,000 members, the Hong Kong-based human rights group said.

Can you explain what threat to Society these Groups possess. What is the thinking behind the banning of such groups?

Where have I spoken of the Cultural stupidity?

Again deflecting?

Point by point please and don't scamper off like a scared rabbit!

Indeed what is this targeted population?

CCP members?

Originally Posted by dave lukins

Not that particular article but there are plenty of other "treatments" of other groups to whet the appetite:




Can you explain what threat to Society these Groups possess. What is the thinking behind the banning of such groups?

Fa Lun Gong has been defined as cult, that's why it's banned.

By the way, Qi Gong is NOT Fa Lun Gung and it has got nothing to do with real Qi Gong whatsoever. Banning Fa Lun Gong is not the same as banning Qi Gong.

There are millions in China practicing Qi Gong every day, they are all ok.

Western media has always been selectively blind to these issues.

Hu Kou is an old system and need to be reformed to suit the needs and demands that China is facing today.

But that doesn't mean China has to dump it completely and fully accept the western way. Why should China change the way the country has been running to please the West?

Originally Posted by yeung3939

It is you who keeps throwing insulting words at me without supporting your claims with fact.

What this article says is nothing new. Just points already discussed by scholars who study the system closely.

Please quit doing what Goebbels recommended - repeated a falsehood and it will become the truth!

What do you mean by stating that I don't support with facts?

If you don't wish to look at them as facts, then that is your problem and if feel every English verb indicating your actions is an insult, then you should go to a board where it is in a language you understand.

When you get stupefied, you take this refrain!

What the deposition says may not be new to you since you are subjected to hukou, but it is novel to us, who are free to go and live where we want and to do any work we like and wherever we like to do so.

Further, the Professor has been very incisive and analytical, clearing much of the cobwebs hanging on this issue.

Address those issue and not wail for every word that I write.

It is my considered recommendation to you to do some homework and take on the issues at hand more seriously and not raise Cain on non issues.