China the only Paradise in the world!

**Ray** · 30 Jun 08,, 02:30

Very weak arguments that just falls flat.

Troung and Shipwreck fly the PRC Flag? Since when? Again you weave and sidestep and obfuscate and try to put the focus elsewhere.

Never on the subject.

Links are bogus? Good for you.

You say something and then you backflip with some excuses.

And of course, blame everything on misunderstanding the language!

Laziness is no excuse.

I don't see the same patriotic fervour in defending the US where you live as you show when it comes to your interest or ethnic background. You yourself state that you make fun of US policies and certain American mindset. And yet to jump to it when something adverse is said of PRC and which is reported worldwide. Odd!

I surely hope it is your last post since your examples are getting weirder day by day!

**Zeng** · 02 Jul 08,, 03:53

Originally Posted by Elbmek

You make a valid point regarding the UK BUT, at least we have got our house in order. We have fish and all sorts of life swimming in our rivers now, whereas, up to the 60s, we did not. We regularly see seals, dolphins etc in our rivers, even basking sharks in the Mersey. Basking Sharks only go where there is food, food is only found in clean rivers.

You have selected an incident which was probably due to human ineptitude rather than a mass problem.

China is massively over polluting everything - its a fact. I am not being against China here, it is plain and simple fact. You say its because of development? Yes, it is - uncontrolled development. To produce on a massive scale and to hell with where the waste goes. A lot of the products that are used in the West are produced in China, due to your lower standard of living, wages etc.

Here in the west, greed is the master. In China, production figures are the boss. Here in Britain we have done something about it, you have not. Even the USA is a major contributor to pollution, but not on the scale of China.

British "air" is 100% better than it was in the 60s also. Many ailments that afflicted the children of the 50s and 60s (and before) have long passed into the history books due to our clean air policy of successive governments. On the odd occasion that pollution has taken place, the law has come down with a heavy hand and with massive fines.

The major problem here in Britain now is automotive pollution. Most families are the owners of two or more cars. Housing is too expensive so many more children remain at home for longer and they have cars as well as their parents.

The technology for building petrol/diesel free cars is already here, and has been here for decades but the patents are suppressed by the oil companies; they do not want to see petrol free cars.

I read a newspaper article only a couple of years ago about a man in the Phillipines who removed the engine from a car, replaced the entire engine space with a massive battery, he pours a bucket of water into it each day, and can run his car all day, on that bucket of water!!

If he can do it?

We in the west are not guiltless, BUT, China could do a whole lot better.

Elbmek,

Good post. The comments in this post is much better than something like “China = poison”.

I made a response to Zraver about my opinions on China’s environmental issues as following.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/pol...inment-11.html

I agree that China did not do as good as she should in the Environmental protection. First, China did not pay attention to the Environmental protection until middle of 1990s. Second, even after setting up all the Environmental protection laws, the enforcement of the laws is generally lacking.

I especially agree with your comment “China could do a whole lot better”.

About the technology for building petrol/diesel free cars, I am not sure what technology you were talking about. As I know that the closest thing to replace petrol/diesel cars are considered by the experts to be either electric cars or cars using hydrogen fuel (engine or fuel cell).

The problem for the electric car is that it can not provide the energy density/weight & volume ratio in today’s technology as cheap as modern engines. It is almost impossible to charge battery in a comparable energy rate as we fill our fuel tank, although proposal has been made to build battery exchange stations or let every gas station to provide battery exchange service.

US has built hydrogen fuel testing sites to demonstrate feasibility of the technology. But the hydrogen fuel (engine or fuel cell) still has some technically challenge to overcome to make it cheaply available for everyone.

The more critical issue is that neither electricity nor hydrogen is the real original energy source. They are just temporary energy carrier and still need to be made from other forms of energies. Depending on what form of energy you are using to make the electricity or hydrogen, you are not only limited by the transformation efficiency of the energy but also generate pollution during that process. You may be able to reduce harmful emissions like HC, CO and NOx. But the reduction on the green gas emission through that process is limited unless you are using unclear energy. By using nuclear energy, you will face all the issues of unclear waste and protection. Lot of infrastructure is also needed to be built to make the transition from fossil fuel to electricity or hydrogen.

Using water itself as energy is just a dream. It takes more energy to break water into hydrogen and oxygen than the energy you can get from combining those hydrogen and oxygen back to form water. The energy transformation is limited by the first and second laws of the thermodynamics. There is no free lunch here.

**Zeng** · 02 Jul 08,, 03:57

Originally Posted by Ray

Interesting.

Unlike Chinese Communists, even the average common place people, who live in a stratified ego engined self imposed air of self gratification, spewing high morals that you do not follow, in India, irrespective of who we are, we prefer to remain in touch with our real world.

Instead of bland statements, do be kind to correct what I write. That would be constructive. Pious homilies of no import does not in any way contribute to knowing China.

True it is a fictional setting, but so is it fictional that minority and religious freedom is allowed. Xinjiang and Tibet are two excellent examples and the ruination of the Manchus wherein they have been coerced to forget their language and culture.It cannot be more of' 'salute' and proof to the real intent of suppressive cultural swamping that has been historically pursued to ensure Han supremacy. Any comments on this?

Unlike your posters who swamped this net singing paeans of the wondrous land (where they are from) and how peace loving and all embracing you are and how all the world is nasty to you, it will be a rare Indian who will roam the net as a balladeer of mythical folk lores.

You have written about the Gujarat riot. You have given a link. Do be kind to comment or are you merely a link poster?

Unlike Tibet and Xinjiang, Gujerat is not a captured land. There has been no ethnic cleansing like what is going on in Tibet and Xinjiang. Yes, there has been riots. The age old religious divide surfaced due to burning of the train carrying the Ayodha pilgrims. And yes, you forget to mention, that unlike Tibet and Xinjiang, the country condemned the riots instead of justifying it with mish mash as you all do for Tibet or Xinjiang.

Interestingly, have you paused to think as to why you know about the Gujerat riot and you will continue to know more, It is because India is a democracy and does not hide its warts unlike China nor organise a lockdown whenever there is something embarrassing as you did in Tibet. When the Tibetan uprising happened, China threw out the foreigners and tourists so that none knew what happened. Who knows what happened? It could be worse than Gujarat or even what Mugabwe is doing ( a horror China supports by giving arms to kill his own people and who does not allow an election to be free and fair; this speaks of the Chinese Communist govt's mentality) Your Communist regime hides everything and instead project that all is well. You are regimented to believe that one should not discuss contradictions and in the same breath state that you all know of China's infirmities. Indeed, you may know, but you cannot speak!! A politically infused lockjaw syndrome!

It may interest you further that unlike Tibet and Xinjiang, all in India are allowed to practice their religion and India does not condemn their religious leaders or drive people into exile and then change the demography and wipe out the culture, religion and language underfoot.

In India, we encourage ethnic diversity and not lump all into one culture or suppress ethnicity, language or religion. We are a free nation and we are not afraid if others see our faults. To err is human.

Of course Gujarat was a horror. But, dear heart, do pause and think of how many perished in the Cultural Revolution. And was there even a cause for killing so many? You kill for power and that is reprehensible. Total ego maniacs and it signatures the attitude. All because one man, Mao felt threatened! Dictatorship and whims of just one Man to kill a generation!

As I said earlier, no country is perfect and India is hardly perfect. You claim that you all also realise you are not perfect. If so, what were your China Brigade that descended on WAB, consequent to the Tibet uprising that was crushed underfoot and the Olympic Flame fiasco doing? Where were you then? Did they condemn the crushing of Tibetans brutally? No, instead you all went berserk to tell out how like Jesus you were so kind to the Tibetans and they are the culprits.

Spewing Pious platitudes and homilies to suit the flavour of the moment is hardly does much to extend the argument.

As Dave Lukins has said - beat the arguments with facts and not emotions or words to that effect.

Ray sir,

If you want to make your argument and bring up China’s problems, it is ok for me. I consider some of the issue you brought up is legitimate.

However, creating a title “China the only Paradise in the world!” and using a fictional setting in 2021 to make your argument is not the correct way to start the debate.

About Gujarat riot, the link has provided enough information. I don’t think that I need to provide more. I provided the link is not intended to show that India is bad or worse than China. I intended to show that for countries like India and China, we both had historic religious and racial tensions. Those tensions can not be solved easily in either India or China.

Therefore, there is no need to creat a title of “China the only Paradise in the world!” and using a fictional setting in 2021 to make your argument.

None of our Chinese posters claimed China to be a Paradise let along the only Paradise in the world. You put your words in our mouth and then argue with us. It is not a respectable way to start the debate.

**Ray** · 02 Jul 08,, 07:21

Originally Posted by Zeng

Ray sir,

If you want to make your argument and bring up China’s problems, it is ok for me. I consider some of the issue you brought up is legitimate.

However, creating a title “China the only Paradise in the world!” and using a fictional setting in 2021 to make your argument is not the correct way to start the debate.

About Gujarat riot, the link has provided enough information. I don’t think that I need to provide more. I provided the link is not intended to show that India is bad or worse than China. I intended to show that for countries like India and China, we both had historic religious and racial tensions. Those tensions can not be solved easily in either India or China.

Therefore, there is no need to creat a title of “China the only Paradise in the world!” and using a fictional setting in 2021 to make your argument.

None of our Chinese posters claimed China to be a Paradise let along the only Paradise in the world. You put your words in our mouth and then argue with us. It is not a respectable way to start the debate.

About the Gujarat riots I was there to control the issue and when we arrived it became peaceful. There is no doubt that the riots were disgraceful and there were reasons why it happened including burning of the train with the pilgrims.

Thereafter, politics took over and churned to get maximum political mileage. That is a drawback of democracy. If India had been a totalitarian regime, one wonders if anyone would have even come to know of it.

As far as Paradise is concerned, one has to read the paeans sung of China. The vehement protest that China could never do such a thing like not allow Moslem children till 18 to enter a mosque or get Islamic instruction is in itself an indication as to how the Mainland Chinese feel that their country is purer than driven snow and can do no wrong. Well, only in Paradise everything is perfect or so they say!

As I look at it, China is as good or as bad as any other country. But when an innocuous post of mine on a reported issue is tossed up and the Chinese feel that China is God's Own Acre, then one has to expose the warts!

**~~Elbmek~~** · 02 Jul 08,, 17:03

Zeng Nuclear fission is a bad thing but nuclear fusion would bring vast quantities of "cheap" power to all at no cost to the environment. Cheap did I say? Not when governments get hold of it it won't be.

**Zeng** · 17 Jul 08,, 01:27

Originally Posted by Elbmek

Zeng Nuclear fission is a bad thing but nuclear fusion would bring vast quantities of "cheap" power to all at no cost to the environment. Cheap did I say? Not when governments get hold of it it won't be.

Elbmek,

Yes, theoretically, nuclear fusion is much better. It can probably become the future energy source for the human beings on the earth for the future.

The only challenge is that how to create the condition to start and control the nuclear fusion process.

The most serious attempt on the controlled nuclear fusion research right now is the 10 billion Euro ITER project.

ITER

It seems that the most optimistic scientists believe that a commercial nuclear fusion reactor will not be available until after the middle of this century.

There is a joke about the nuclear fusion, people has predicted that controlled nuclear fusion has been "just decades away" for several decades.

Although some scientists claimed that they may have found cold nuclear fusion, their test results have never been duplicated.

Cold fusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IIRC, there were even scientists who faked their test results to claim the discovery of the new methods for easier initialization of the nuclear fusion.

China has made great effort on the research of the nuclear fusion not only by joining the ITER but also by creating her own EAST project.

EAST - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even when US suspended the funding for the ITER project, China continues to support it.

China to continue participation in ITER project after U.S. suspension_English_Xinhua

Some people even think that China’s thirst for oil can save the planet
How China’s thirst for oil can save the planet - Times Online

But I think that their opinions are debatable.

**~~pravin~~** · 17 Jul 08,, 15:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbmek View Post
Zeng Nuclear fission is a bad thing but nuclear fusion would bring vast quantities of "cheap" power to all at no cost to the environment. Cheap did I say? Not when governments get hold of it it won't be.
Elbmek,

Yes, theoretically, nuclear fusion is much better. It can probably become the future energy source for the human beings on the earth for the future.

The only challenge is that how to create the condition to start and control the nuclear fusion process.

The most serious attempt on the controlled nuclear fusion research right now is the 10 billion Euro ITER project.

ITER

It seems that the most optimistic scientists believe that a commercial nuclear fusion reactor will not be available until after the middle of this century.

There is a joke about the nuclear fusion, people has predicted that controlled nuclear fusion has been "just decades away" for several decades.

Although some scientists claimed that they may have found cold nuclear fusion, their test results have never been duplicated.

Cold fusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IIRC, there were even scientists who faked their test results to claim the discovery of the new methods for easier initialization of the nuclear fusion.

China has made great effort on the research of the nuclear fusion not only by joining the ITER but also by creating her own EAST project.

EAST - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even when US suspended the funding for the ITER project, China continues to support it.

China to continue participation in ITER project after U.S. suspension_English_Xinhua

Some people even think that China’s thirst for oil can save the planet
How China’s thirst for oil can save the planet - Times Online

But I think that their opinions are debatable.

Theory is Fine but in reality Nuclear Fusion CANNOT BE CONTROLLED.SUSTAINING IT IN HUMAN CONDITIONS IS IMPOSSIBLE .
If someone does that then they are great