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Thread: Archbishop sparks Sharia law row

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    Dirty Kiwi Parihaka's Avatar
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    Archbishop sparks Sharia law row


    Archbishop sparks Sharia law row


    Dr Rowan Williams

    Leading politicians have distanced themselves from the Archbishop of Canterbury's belief that some Sharia law in the UK seems "unavoidable".

    Gordon Brown's spokesman said the prime minister "believes that British laws should be based on British values".

    The Tories called the archbishop's remarks "unhelpful" and the Lib Dems said all must abide by the rule of law.

    Dr Rowan Williams said the UK had to "face up to the fact" some citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

    He said adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law could help social cohesion.

    For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

    'Changes'

    But the prime minister's official spokesman said Sharia law could never be used as a justification for committing a breach of English law, nor could the principle of Sharia law be applied in a civil case.

    He added that Mr Brown had a good relationship with the archbishop, who was perfectly entitled to express his views.


    Home Office Minister Tony McNulty said: "To ask us to fundamentally change the rule of law and to adopt Sharia law, I think, is fundamentally wrong."

    And Culture Secretary Andy Burnham told BBC One's Question Time: "This isn't a path down which we should go.

    "You cannot run two systems of law alongside each other," he said, adding this would be "chaos".

    For the Conservatives, shadow community cohesion minister Baroness Warsi said the archbishop's comments were "unhelpful".

    "Dr Williams seems to be suggesting that there should be two systems of law, running alongside each other, almost parallel, and for people to be offered the choice of opting into one or the other," she told BBC News 24. "That is unacceptable."

    Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said he had "an enormous amount of respect" for Dr Williams, but could not agree with him on this issue.


    "Equality before the law is part of the glue that binds our society together. We cannot have a situation where there is one law for one person and different laws for another.

    "There is a huge difference between respecting people's right to follow their own beliefs and allowing them to excuse themselves from the rule of law."

    Trevor Phillips, who chairs the Equality and Human Rights Commission said the "implication that British courts should treat people differently based on their faith is divisive and dangerous".

    "It risks removing the protection afforded by law, for example, to children in custody cases or women in divorce proceedings," he said.

    "There is a fundamental principle here when you appear before a court in Britain you appear as a citizen, equal to any other and you should be treated equally to any other."

    'Sensational'

    Dr Williams said Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".

    In an interview with BBC correspondent Christopher Landau, he argued this relied on Sharia law being better understood. At the moment, he said "sensational reporting of opinion polls" clouded the issue.

    He stressed that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

    But Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger".

    "There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."

    Dr Williams added: "What we don't want either, is I think, a stand-off, where the law squares up to people's religious consciences."

    "We don't either want a situation where, because there's no way of legally monitoring what communities do... people do what they like in private in such a way that that becomes another way of intensifying oppression inside a community."

    Multiculturalism 'divisive'

    Under English law, people may devise their own way to settle a dispute in front of an agreed third party as long as both sides agree to the process.

    Muslim Sharia courts and the Orthodox Jewish courts which already exist in the UK come into this category.

    Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Ramadhan Foundation, welcomed Dr Williams's comments, saying they "further underline the attempts by both our great faiths to build respect and tolerance".


    He added: "Sharia law for civil matters is something which has been introduced in some western countries with much success. I believe that Muslims would take huge comfort from the government allowing civil matters being resolved according to their faith."

    Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "We're looking at a very small aspect of Sharia for Muslim families when they choose to be governed with regards to their marriage, divorce, inheritance, custody of children and so forth."

    He added: "Let's debate this issue. It is very complex. It is not as straight forward as saying that we will have a system here."

    But Mark Pritchard, Tory MP for the Wrekin, in Shropshire, said the archbishop's comments were "naive and shocking" and he accused him of "pseudo-theological appeasement".

    He said: "The archbishop should be standing up for our Judeo-Christian principles that underpin British criminal law that have been hard fought for.

    "He should be concentrating on winning souls into the Church of England rather than getting involved in politics."
    Gordon Bennett

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    I am F*c***g gobsmacked............I think this is a final sign that the ABoC has finally lost his f*cki*g mind, its not even worth dissecting the statement, he should be banished and sent as a missionary to the middle east and see how many he can convert, and as for

    Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Ramadhan Foundation, welcomed Dr Williams's comments, saying they "further underline the attempts by both our great faiths to build respect and tolerance

    bet he said all that with a big smile on his face, bet he could hardly hold himself up for laughing........I despair I truly do, and we are suposed to respect these people
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post



    Gordon Bennett
    That is the very mildest retort I can think of. Just shows how far our Holy Joes will go to defend any religion. Strange that the action isn't reciprocated, isn't it? I mean, why should we expect the flood of incomers to abide by British law? Surely we can all see just how hard they are striving to integrate?
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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    Dirty Kiwi Parihaka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glyn View Post
    That is the very mildest retort I can think of.
    As you know I'm somewhat constrained in the comments I make regarding the joys of immigration by a consideration of her indoors English liberal views and a desire to not spend all my time on the couch, even though it is rather comfortable
    I'm looking forward to debating this one with her as well. Not.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    As you know I'm somewhat constrained in the comments I make regarding the joys of immigration by a consideration of her indoors English liberal views and a desire to not spend all my time on the couch, even though it is rather comfortable
    I'm looking forward to debating this one with her as well. Not.)
    Into every life a little rain must fall!
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    Dr Williams said Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".
    I'm glad he brought this up, crank that he is. So that it can be made quite clear to Muslims that they made that choice by living here. Not only is the law of the land paramount, but the prevailing cultural values should be adopted. That includes respect for women's human rights in the home. OK that doesn't always happen amongst the natives, but at least we call it "abuse".

    William's comments are good for a bit of a shout at the telly and a laugh. But it is disturbing to realise that there is a real expectation amongst some Muslims (notably men) that it should be possible for them to have a nice misogynistic Sharia court for some matters; like divorce, and "family matters", -what like rape? the naming of teddy bears?

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Did I mention that I want sharia law in San Francisco and Berkeley?

    That oughtta change those liberal hippies opinions about islam real quick.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Did I mention that I want sharia law in San Francisco and Berkeley?

    That oughtta change those liberal hippies opinions about islam real quick.
    Hehehehe...

    It would be SO GREAT to see the loud-mouthed liberal women of California and all across American campuses being put under Sharia for about a month. They'd leave that experience calling for a nuclear strike on every major Muslim holy site and population center, including London. They'd make the Nazis look tolerant and respectful.
    "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
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    i think i just vomited a little bit in my mouth.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

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    Senior Contributor texasjohn's Avatar
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    The Archbishop of Canterbury, no less. it's true then- the last person to leave Britain - please turn out the lights..

    Very depressing, needless to say.

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    tankie Military Professional tankie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesman View Post
    Hehehehe...

    It would be SO GREAT to see the loud-mouthed liberal women of California and all across American campuses being put under Sharia for about a month. They'd leave that experience calling for a nuclear strike on every major Muslim holy site and population center, including LondonISTAN. They'd make the Nazis look tolerant and respectful.
    Sorry B/M, but i just edited your post






    TANKIE.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i think i just vomited a little bit in my mouth.
    Those hippie girls aren't that bad. They just need to shave a little and maybe take a shower once in a while...
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Contributor captain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasjohn View Post
    The Archbishop of Canterbury, no less. it's true then- the last person to leave Britain - please turn out the lights..

    Very depressing, needless to say.
    Possibly the lights will be switched off in a few other European countries first.

    Below is a press release from the Danish Muslim Party, some written in Danish and some in English.


    Dansk muslim parti - DAMP
    DAMP- Dansk muslim parti (Danish muslim party)

    Danish muslim partys agenda-Dansk muslim parti agenda: Pressemeddelse -Dansk Muslim Parti



    Dansk Muslim Parti informerer/Danish muslim party informs:



    Danish muslim partys agenda-Dansk muslim parti agenda:

    Danish muslim partys only agenda is to get muslims into danish politics and into the parliament, no matter what our ideas and religious or political beliefs are.

    Idea behind this is simply this: since we live in Denmark and here is about 700 000 muslims, we could actually have about 60 ( =1/3 ) muslim representatives in danish parliament, and therefore also in danish government, - and therefore we feel it would be worthwhile to get muslim candidates, so that also muslims ideas, values and viewpoints would become heard,respected and understood better in danish politics and in danish government and parliament.This way we could also stop discrimination in danish society.

    Dansk muslim partis eneste agenda er at vi vil have mere muslimer til dansk politik og til folketinget.Det er ligemeget hvad er vores ideer eller politiske eller religiøse ideer.

    Idén er bare at fordi vi bor i Danmark og her er ca. 700000 muslimer, vi kunne have ca. 60 (=1/3) representanter i folketinget og derfor også have muslimer i regering , - og derfor vi tror at det er en god ide , fordi vores ideer,værdier og synspunkter kunne blive hørt og forståt bedre i dansk politik- og i folketinget og i regering.Dette kunne også stoppe diskrimination i dansk samfund.

    We have Freedom of religion in Denmark , and therefore everyone have right to practise their religion what ever it is, and also society must respect every religion and accept its manners and beliefs.

    Pga. Religionsfrihed Alle i Danmark skulle have rettigheder at leve ifølge deres religion, og derfor er det ulovligt hvis nogen prøver at stoppe muslim-religion.F.eks. det kan godt være at DF partis udtalelser eller agenda er ulovlig ifølge internationelle lov.Therefore f.ex. DF partys opinions and agenda may be criminal , and may become judged as a crime if judged according to international laws.



    __________________________________________________ _________________
    Vågn op-bliv politiker! Wake up-become a politician!
    Our goal is to get our candidates into parliament-folketinget, and to all politics of Denmark and this way help immigrants in Denmark.
    Vi skal have flere muslimer til folketinget.We are not religious movement-we are only a political movement trying to get equal treatment for immigrants and muslims in Denmark.Vi er ikke religiøs bevægelse-vi er kun politisk bevægelse og vi kun vil få rettigheder og bedre liv til indvandrere og muslimer i Danmark.
    We want to do politics,and find peaceful solutions.We hope that danish society gives us chance to do this.Vi vil skabe fred.
    Here lives about 275000 muslims now-we win next election easily.Her bor ca. 275000 muslimer i Danmark-vi vinder nemt næste valg.(ingen ved sikkert hvor mange muslimer bor i Danmark- eller vores regering skjuler information?No one knows exactly how many muslims live in Denmark-or government knows,but hides data?)
    Immigrants have no other hope- and Denmark has no other hope?DAMP er vores eneste håb?

    DET UTROLIGT AT DANMARK HAR IKKE MUSLIM SOM INTEGRATIONSMINISTER -ELLER MÅSKE INGEN MUSLIMER I INTEGRATIONSMINISTERIUM? It is unbelievable that Denmark has not muslim as integrationsminister-or maybe not a one muslim in integrations ministry?



    Treating immigrants wrongly will in the future cause riots and many problems- and therefore it is a must to get muslims into politics-not throw immigrants out of life in Denmark.Vi skal have muslim og indvandrer politikere,ellers bliver der problemer i Danmark i fremtiden.Ved hjælp af muslimer i politik undgår Danmark problemer.
    Modern danish politics can be called apartheid politics- you cannot even read anywhere in Denmark what muslims or immigrants think or say about situation in Denmark.Nu er indvandreres og muslimers situation dårlig i Danmark.
    'Muslim party' will be biggest party of Denmark- and it may be soon.First day after Turcey becomes EU member country- about one million 20-50 years old muslims moves to Denmark?And after that Denmark will be a muslim country?Be ready!
    But we may not wait that, - we must be a party of government already now.
    'Muslim parti' vil blive den største parti i Danmark i fremtiden.Men danskere skal ikke være bange eller utilfreds med det-vi skaber fred og feremtiden vil blive bedre for alle.Men vi skal ikke vente Turkey-vi skal blive regerings parti allerede nu!
    Vi skal kræve muslimsk integrationsminister- nu?We must demand muslim integrations minister -now?


    Many danes feel this strange, because Denmark has not have muslim government before- but we can assure you that everything will be better in muslim Denmark:
    No drugs,no crime, peace, and humanity- instead of drug culture,immorality,possibly human rights crimes and violence which we have now.
    Voldssamfund skal stoppes.
    We may not stand and watch when our people are treated wrongly - Vote muslim parti. Vote muslim! (If you are a communist-vote muslim communist candidate, if you are a conservatie-vote conservative muslim candidate, etc.)
    This is only way to get equality in Denmark?
    Alle muslimer i Danmark skulle støtte muslimer og stemme muslimer.Vi skal glemme hvis vi har forskellige meninger- og stemme muslimer til folketinget.Det er bedre at snakke om vores meninger i folketinget, end på gaden.If we have different ideas, it is anyway better to argue or discuss about them in Parliament , than on the streets.
    I fremtiden dansk regering har ca. 50% muslimer,- eller vi har 100% muslimsk regering.
    Nu- vores politik er at hvis du er muslim- er det bedre at vi har muslimer i folketinget.Ellers får vi aldrig 'menneskerettigheder' eller ligestilling i dansk samfund?Our politics is that it is better to have muslims in parliament in Denmark-otherwise we do not get 'human rights' or equality in danish society?
    Hvad som helst er din politisk eller religiøs holdning- er det bedre hvis vi har muslimer i folketinget og i dansk politik,Ik?
    Danmark bliver den første muslimsk land i Europe?Denmark will be first muslim land in Europe?Men så længe skal vi bare være en del af dansk politik,Ik?-og ikke bare side og opleve forkerte handlinger mod os her?But now we must be part of danish politics anyway-and not sit and wait when wrong things happen to us in Denmark?

    MVH

    Dansk muslim parti Danish muslim party DAMP - Dansk muslim parti - DAMP



    Dansk Muslim Parti - DAMP - Danish muslim party

    _________________

    Copyright2007©DanskMuslimParti


    More-mere:


    Provocation of muslims has not caused much problems in Denmark.
    This proves how good people immigrants and muslims in Denmark are.
    There was more problems with gang youth house of Norrebro,than with muslims ever in Denmark.Provokation mod islam gav ikke samfundsproblemer i Danmark og det beviser at muslimer er fredelige mennesker.Ungdomshuset har givet mere problemer end muslimer nogensind i Danmark.

    Jyllands-Politikens provocation were made by illuminists-zionists?Illuminist -zionister bag provokation?Ahmadinejad har talt noget om det nu vedrørende svensk provokation af 2007.
    Ahmadinejad says something like this- and same thing now in Sweden.

    Illuminists-zionists idea is to get a war between muslims and christians,that is why they try to get terrorism.Illuminister-zionister vil skabe krig mellem muslimer og kristne,og derfor vil de provolere terrorisme.Muslimer er ikke terrorister.Muslim people are not terrorists.
    That is why we must know this, and stay calm.Derfor skal vi være fredelige.

    Islam is a religion of peace and love.Islam er fred og kærlighed-ikke krig eller terror.

    Let islam help Danmark and make Denmark a reasonable land.Lad islam hjælpe Danmark-vi skal gøre Danmark fornuftig land!

    Let's get 100 muslims into folketinget/parliament.Vi skal have 100 muslimer til folketinget.

    There is no other choice-Danmark skal have muslim parti-og muslim kandidater- og muslim politikere- NU!

    Alle indvandreres og muslimers sager skal undersøges og diskriminering eller forskelbehandlinger skal undersøges.All immigrant and muslims cases in Denmark must be investigated because of possible discrimination towards them.

    Indvandrere og muslimer i danske fængsler kan tolkes at være politiske fanger? Immigrants and muslims in danish prisons can be understood being political prisoners?


    Every immigrant or muslim in danish jails should be released from prisons, because it is possible that there has been plotting or framing or provocation towards them - and all cases should be investigated again carefully.
    MVH,

    Dansk muslim parti-DAMP

    poste restante,
    Bagsværd posthus
    Bagsværd Torv 8
    2880 Bagsværd
    DENMARK

    Source: Dansk muslim parti Danish muslim party DAMP - Dansk muslim parti - DAMP


    Even if it is the product of some Islamist DAMP dream (pun intended), the fact that Denmark has a population of 5.5 million of which muslims account for 700,000, the wet dream could become reality in the very near future especially if the native Danes abandon their country in numbers.

    The notion that a million muslim Turks would immeadiately descend upon the country when Turkey joins the EU and all muslim prisioners would be released beggars belief even if only from a logistical point of view.
    I wonder what the Turks would think of this.

    Wether or not this is a genuine political party, the intent should cause the warning sirens to sound, not only in Denmark, but in many European countries.

    It is I think, becoming increasingly obvious that the original reasonable notion of "multiculturism" has been subverterd into something quite different.

    Originally, America did mange to take immigrants from all over the world, encourage them to assimilate with the American culture and allow them to achieve the "American dream".
    Australia has done much the same with similar success but more recent attempts by Europe and latter arrivals in Australia and apparently the U.S and Canada follow a very different dream, a dream of supremissism where the hosts will submit to the dogma of Islam and it's system of total life control.

    The dreams of these people are being given the best possible boost by the loony left, radical feminists, the painfully politically correct and of course the dear Archbishop of Canterbury.

    It may come to pass, that western civilization may be forced into making decisions that we would wish we would never have to make.
    Life is comfortable with your head buried in the sand and it only becomes less so when that bit that is pointing to the sky gets kicked or used as a bicycle rack.
    Those decissions will no doubt haunt us for generations but is there a palatable alternative?

    I consider myself very lucky to live on this very large island where the Indian ocean meets the Pacific and we will not be part of Europestan.
    I am also very happy with our tolerant and open culture, our laid back and slightly irreverent way of life and our freedoms that sometimes are taken too much for granted.

    Some may call me a racist but, I am not, as this subject has nothing whatsoever to do with race but everything to do with culture and freedom that others including some recent immigrants to this country would remove from me, my family, my friends and my neighbours.

    End Rant,

    Cheers.
    Last edited by captain; 08 Feb 08, at 07:28. Reason: clarity

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    Banned brokensickle's Avatar
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    Wow! The dude is insane! IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post



    The Archbishop...what can I say...some words come to mind, deluded, delusional, drunk, on drugs, scared, weird, out of touch with reality, sellout, suicidal. It's hard to figure.

    His statements say a lot about him.




    Ivan

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    [QUOTE=brokensickle;456989]The Archbishop...what can I say...some words come to mind, deluded, delusional, drunk, on drugs, scared, weird, out of touch with reality, sellout, suicidal. It's hard to figure.

    His statements say a lot about him.

    Well, he is a bit ...you know, religious.
    In my book religious = divorced from reality.
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