Thread: Support closing Guantanamo by wearing Orange

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

Don't you dare take a swipe at me like that again. Do not lump me into the group of those with their heads surgically implanted up their ass. See the military proffesional under my name? I signed my papers and am willing to do the right thing by force if necessary, where are you papers? You own me an apology. I am Canadian and I believe there is such thing as right and wrong.

Thank you for your sevice to defending our country. However I fail to see how I've insulted that service, I've merely critisized your opinion of how far we should go with terrorists and the fact that you feel the Americans somehow lied about what they knew about Saddams govt. and what their plans were. I don't owe you any apology, as your widly jumping to conclusions, again.

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

Just because my enemy wants to act worse than animals doesn't mean we should too. We need to be better than them in every way to win this, every time we resort to techniques like this is another excuse for someone to strap a bomb to a child and blow innocents up. We do not need to get involved in this tit for tat ********.

So then, water boarding is equal to beheading, torching inocent childred and strapping bombs to madmen so they can explode amidst many civilians? Do you think berating language is torture? How about sleep deprevation? Perhaps giving these chaps their own brand new copy of the Quran, a carpet to kneel on and very tasty, 3 quare meals a day, diet is torture? MY point is that YOUR point that we should not relinquish one shred of our morality to WIN is faulty. If the enemy has no qualms about it what so ever and we can't even budge one bit, we lose, its that simple.

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

I am also fully aware of the chemical agents found in the artillery shells and a few other things. I am aware that Saddam used these on his own people and I am glad that the Americans invaded and that sob is dead. I do not want Gitmo closed either, they are the enemy and I never want them out of jail as they are right where they belong.

Then we are in full agreement there no?

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

The Germans have fought outside the Geneva convention, so did the Serbs and countless others. We have not and those that have go on trial and we lock the bastards up. It's attitudes like yours that got our Airbourne disbanded so I pray that if you do try and enlist that you fail the psych tests as unfit for service.

So when the British bombed German city's after the Germans did you feel they sacrificed their moral superiority? When the allies used flame throwers after the Germans used them against the dutch you feel we became morally inferior to the Germans? Last time I checked our soldiers did not burn, loot, rape, pillage or ethnically cleanse towns in Serbia.

..and what "Attitude pray tell do I have? Please, go ahead and explain what attitude you "think" I'm exuding here. Also are you saying I supported the Airbornes conduct in Somalia, because as far as I know I've never supported THAT action ANYWHERE on these boards....

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

War is kill or be killed, no **** Sherlock but when we need to kill we will do so in a manner that will not bring shame on our people. Torture is a shamefull act no matter how you slice it and every single one of you that thinks it is okay to do so should be ashamed of yourself. Did your mothers not teach you better than this???!?! I thought people like my grand parents who fought and killed and had their lives destoyed did so in the belief that they fought for a better future and did so under the assumtion that we where not capable of such evil acts.

There are a lot of men and women still over there who are turning in their graves.

For shame.

...your generalising this time, you don't even know were I stand on torture so your feined horror at my morality isn't shaming me one bit.

Maybe if you'd have read a few more of my posts you'd realise your barking up the wrong tree.

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Also are you saying I supported the Airbornes conduct in Somalia, because as far as I know I've never supported THAT action ANYWHERE on these boards....

What conduct was it? I'm serious. I don't know. If anyone could link to a story or something.

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Thank you for your sevice to defending our country. However I fail to see how I've insulted that service, I've merely critisized your opinion of how far we should go with terrorists and the fact that you feel the Americans somehow lied about what they knew about Saddams govt. and what their plans were. I don't owe you any apology, as your widly jumping to conclusions, again.

Yes, you do you lumped me in with the other bleeding heart morons. I also never said the Americans lied, I said that they where given faulty intel from someone under duress.

Oh and don't thank me too fast I was just a lowley reservist and not a veteran but the intent is the same. I don't want credit I do not deserve.



So then, water boarding is equal to beheading, torching inocent childred and strapping bombs to madmen so they can explode amidst many civilians? Do you think berating language is torture? How about sleep deprevation? Perhaps giving these chaps their own brand new copy of the Quran, a carpet to kneel on and very tasty, 3 quare meals a day, diet is torture? MY point is that YOUR point that we should not relinquish one shred of our morality to WIN is faulty. If the enemy has no qualms about it what so ever and we can't even budge one bit, we lose, its that simple.

I'm not going to compare the methods of torture, they are all wrong once someone feels their life is in danger. Sleep deprivation, it just sucks it does not hurt nor does it make you think you are about to die, it just sucks.

We can never win if we keep giving them excuses to continue their behaviour. Maybe it's because I grew up in Surrey and know exactly where that path leads, a few dead friends with that tit for tat attitude.



Then we are in full agreement there no?

Fully.



So when the British bombed German city's after the Germans did you feel they sacrificed their moral superiority? When the allies used flame throwers after the Germans used them against the dutch you feel we became morally inferior to the Germans? Last time I checked our soldiers did not burn, loot, rape, pillage or ethnically cleanse towns in Serbia.

..and what "Attitude pray tell do I have? Please, go ahead and explain what attitude you "think" I'm exuding here. Also are you saying I supported the Airbornes conduct in Somalia, because as far as I know I've never supported THAT action ANYWHERE on these boards....

When you say any method to get info out of the enemy is fine that is the same. You did not support the beating death of that young man of course but the attitude is the there. They caught him breaking into the camp and of course felt justified in kicking his ass but they went too far and he is now dead. Once you start down that path it is hard to know where the line is. That is where I make the comparrison. Of course you have not supported their actions but the attitude that made them do what they did is one and the same. He is a criminal so who cares what we do to him. I'm sure you know the story so I don't need to get into more details.

...your generalising this time, you don't even know were I stand on torture so your feined horror at my morality isn't shaming me one bit.



I do so, you posted it in black and white and then took a swipe at me for my stance on it.

Maybe if you'd have read a few more of my posts you'd realise your barking up the wrong tree.

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Now I'm all for doing the right thing but if that means torturing some SOB who clearly was fighting on the side of terrorists I have no problem with that..

I guess you didn't type that it was the one armed man........

I've been in and out of this board a long time now and have read many of your posts which I fully agree with including part of our debate now and we would not be butting heads if you didn't take the swipe at me that set me off to begin with.

Originally Posted by Feanor

What conduct was it? I'm serious. I don't know. If anyone could link to a story or something.

SOMALIA AFFAIR

There was some stuff left out in that article as to why the soldiers where so pissed off. The camp kept getting broken into and if I'm not mistaken arms and ammo where being stolen. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Critics Forget Canadian Troops in Somalia Accomplished Mission - L. Windsor

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

SOMALIA AFFAIR

There was some stuff left out in that article as to why the soldiers where so pissed off. The camp kept getting broken into and if I'm not mistaken arms and ammo where being stolen. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Critics Forget Canadian Troops in Somalia Accomplished Mission - L. Windsor

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

Yes, you do you lumped me in with the other bleeding heart morons. I also never said the Americans lied, I said that they where given faulty intel from someone under duress.
Oh and don't thank me too fast I was just a lowley reservist and not a veteran but the intent is the same. I don't want credit I do not deserve.

Then if lumping you in with the other bleeding hearts morons is what I've done then yes I appologise, I can see how THAT would offend.
As for your service in reserve, service is service in my opinion. Reservists freeup the full timers to do what our country askes them to do.

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

When you say any method to get info out of the enemy is fine that is the same. You did not support the beating death of that young man of course but the attitude is the there. They caught him breaking into the camp and of course felt justified in kicking his ass but they went too far and he is now dead. Once you start down that path it is hard to know where the line is. That is where I make the comparrison. Of course you have not supported their actions but the attitude that made them do what they did is one and the same. He is a criminal so who cares what we do to him. I'm sure you know the story so I don't need to get into more details.

Your correct, that incident is not looked on favorably upon by me. Its sad an entire regiment was disbanded because of a couple of morons. Stealing is one thing, burning a little boy alive because his family pointed out you and your buddies terrorist arms stash out is an entirely different matter, and THATS what I'm trying to say. Even without trying we are miles ahead morally.

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

We can never win if we keep giving them excuses to continue their behaviour. Maybe it's because I grew up in Surrey and know exactly where that path leads, a few dead friends with that tit for tat attitude.

Now this is where we differ in opinions. IMO terrorists don't need excuses to do what they do. Even setting foot in their lands is enough for them to murder. Why should we stop persuing killers because we might offend them?

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

I've been in and out of this board a long time now and have read many of your posts which I fully agree with including part of our debate now and we would not be butting heads if you didn't take the swipe at me that set me off to begin with.

Then it appears we have miss read each other, or chosen our words poorly, the later in my case for sure.

Okay that's settled nicely. Not a frequent occurance in an internet arguement and Hitler wasn't even mentioned!!

Oh wait, the threory is true!

So keep gitmo open and we'll have to agree to disagree on the excuses. Maybe I'm just a silly idealist but hey, that's me. It's why I joined the reserves in the first place.

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Now this is where we differ in opinions. IMO terrorists don't need excuses to do what they do. Even setting foot in their lands is enough for them to murder. Why should we stop persuing killers because we might offend them?

Oh we should go get them, I just don't like torture. I'd almost say it would be better to not give them the opportunity to surrender and just put them in bags. Too bad they aren't as brave and fearless of death as they say they are...... fvckers

smilingassassin,

Now this is where we differ in opinions. IMO terrorists don't need excuses to do what they do. Even setting foot in their lands is enough for them to murder. Why should we stop persuing killers because we might offend them?

this is the part you're not understanding. most people in the world, even in the middle east, are not born terrorists. they're sheep, and aren't particularly eager to do something dramatic or dangerous for little gain. that's the rational side of most people talking.

but once you do something that offends them so much, such as matters pertaining to pride or religion, that they don't care about the costs anymore, then rationality goes out the window.

to look at it from another view, the logical endpoint to your type of thinking is something the wehrmacht and the SS did (quite efficiently, although that's another argument altogether). they would pursue the killers, whom would hide in the villages. when the villagers, either out of fright or genuine support, would clam up, the germans would wipe out the whole village. after all, these were terrorist supporters, and hell, they hate us anyway, so why not? of course the nazis didn't give a dam' about public opinion, either at home or abroad. but the US does...

at some point there must be a dividing line. guantanamo, to some people, is that dividing line. i generally agree with what the good admiral said recently- guantanamo is hurting us strategically more than it is helping us tactically.

You explained what I was getting at far better than I ever could. Thanks astralis.

Originally Posted by astralis

at some point there must be a dividing line. guantanamo, to some people, is that dividing line. i generally agree with what the good admiral said recently- guantanamo is hurting us strategically more than it is helping us tactically.

I disagree and disagree big time.

This is war and while we do have to take into consideration the feelings of those not exactly on our side, in the final analysis, it is us versus them and I choose us each and every time.

The only question is ... can we live with ourselves with we've done to win this war and in the case of waterboarding? Oh hell, yes, we could.

Until JAG tells me that waterboarding is illegal, I don't care what others think. If we win, they'll say we cheated. They will be alive to say we've cheated.

If we lose, I won't care much added on the numerous other crimes they say I've committed to stand me in front of their firing squad.

Originally Posted by astralis

smilingassassin,



this is the part you're not understanding. most people in the world, even in the middle east, are not born terrorists. they're sheep, and aren't particularly eager to do something dramatic or dangerous for little gain. that's the rational side of most people talking.

but once you do something that offends them so much, such as matters pertaining to pride or religion, that they don't care about the costs anymore, then rationality goes out the window.

to look at it from another view, the logical endpoint to your type of thinking is something the wehrmacht and the SS did (quite efficiently, although that's another argument altogether). they would pursue the killers, whom would hide in the villages. when the villagers, either out of fright or genuine support, would clam up, the germans would wipe out the whole village. after all, these were terrorist supporters, and hell, they hate us anyway, so why not? of course the nazis didn't give a dam' about public opinion, either at home or abroad. but the US does...

at some point there must be a dividing line. guantanamo, to some people, is that dividing line. i generally agree with what the good admiral said recently- guantanamo is hurting us strategically more than it is helping us tactically.

Same thing can be said of us. Many here call us sheep for either blindly following the President or blindly opposing him, that makes for many potential sheep. Many things terrorists do offend us in the west, they also generalise us. So what is really different?

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

Oh we should go get them, I just don't like torture.

What is torture and what is not torture is not for you ... nor for me to decide. We both have a job to do ... as do those who must decide what is torture and what is not. Do your job and allow those who have to decide the question of torture to do their jobs.

Point taken sir.