Atheists Lose 1, Deists Gain 1

**Officer of Engineers** · 05 Jan 05,, 17:55

Originally Posted by dalem

So if I'm sitting there with my guts turning to water and I say "Holy crap I hope nothing hits me" am I no longer an atheist?

-dale

Call it what you will but you're hoping for some kind of divine intervention or sheer blind luck that the bullet with your name on it won't find you.

**mostlymad** · 05 Jan 05,, 18:18

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Did your dad serve in combat?

yes. His buddy was shot dead next to him, another wounded in the same hole; he didn't pray - he grabbed the guy and got him out of there. The guy he saved stayed friends 'till the day he died and told the same story.

People can hope a bullet doesn't hit them, or that the fourth impact of their vehicle in a bad accident doesn't kill them or their kids but that hope doesn't have to be directed at a deity. It can be just hope. Non-atheists may have trouble grasping this because their idea of hope may be so linked to belief in god that they perhaps cannot conceive of hope without that. The atheist is not hoping for divine intervention because he doesn't believe in it, but he still hopes to make it out alive.

Also, the arument that no scientific proof can explain the existence of the universe proves there is a god, a creator, is false logic. It is one of the fallacies taught in argumentation courses. We cannot assume that because we can't find an answer or explanation at this time that there is none is false. Holmes' quote about eliminating all wrong choices and settling for the one remaining doesn't apply to the argument concerning god's existence since not all possible explanations have been considered. Our understanding of the universe is limited by our knowledge, our ability to perceive with our senses. We now know the earth is round, but at one time, people could not weven conceive of such an idea.

Because we have difficulty conceiving an idea doesn't mean it is an impossibility. Some people can conceive of an infinite deity, but not an infinite universe. We can't know with absolute certainty that everything has a beginning and end. It seems that way, just as time seems linear, but we now know time isn't.

I'm not telling people who believe in god that they are wrong, but some of their arguments are weak and others are simply fallacious.

Right now, in this forum, it is highly unlikely (see? I can't even know that for sure) that anyone can prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of god.

**Officer of Engineers** · 05 Jan 05,, 18:30

Originally Posted by mostlymad

People can hope a bullet doesn't hit them, or that the fourth impact of their vehicle in a bad accident doesn't kill them or their kids but that hope doesn't have to be directed at a deity. It can be just hope. Non-atheists may have trouble grasping this because their idea of hope may be so linked to belief in god that they perhaps cannot conceive of hope without that. The atheist is not hoping for divine intervention because he doesn't believe in it, but he still hopes to make it out alive.

I was not referring to any deity. Considering the number of wars that has been fought throughout history without the knowledge of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian God by the soldiers (China, Japan, and India), it would be fool hardy to assign that quote to any single belief or beliefs.

The fact remains that hope has been given form in a belief, however brief, that something out there might, just might, save them, even if it is sheer blind luck.

**mostlymad** · 05 Jan 05,, 18:51

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I was not referring to any deity. ...The fact remains that hope has been given form in a belief, however brief, that something out there might, just might, save them, even if it is sheer blind luck.

Definition: [n] someone who denies the existence of god (from WorldNet Diction.)

When you said "There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole" I took atheist as the literal meaning, since the thread was discussing god's existence. My answer was geared to that literal term.

So, I don't understand the statement about the foxhole, then. Do you mean an atheist is someone who does not ever hope for anything, even good luck? What if, like with my Dad's story, he got himself out of there knowing he could not trust to luck or god to do it for him, and took his friend along? If he holds the simple hope he makes it out (which of course he would or why bother trying), then he's not an atheist?

I again must disagree. I know many atheists who hope for things - peace on earth, not to have cancer, a lucky win in Vegas. A person can deny the existence of a god (thus, by definition, an atheist) yet still hope. As I said before, some non-atheists have trouble seperating hope from belief in something "other." Not saying you do, but some people do.

**Officer of Engineers** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:05

I'm saying that anyone going into combat must have a belief that they will emerge alive and that belief can no more be proven or disproven than the belief in God.

While believing you will come out alive does not mean you will not end up in a body bag, believing you're dead definetely will.

**dalem** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:12

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Call it what you will but you're hoping for some kind of divine intervention or sheer blind luck that the bullet with your name on it won't find you.

Those are two distinct ideas - blind luck is not related to divine intervention.

I CERTAINLY hope that nothing bad ever happens to me, and in moments of stress might even vocalize that fact. But believing that my vocalization is an actual appeal is false.

(mostlymad said this better and first, but my reply was eaten by Bad Internet Mojo and I want to stay in the discussion.

)

-dale

**dalem** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:17

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I'm saying that anyone going into combat must have a belief that they will emerge alive and that belief can no more be proven or disproven than the belief in God.

While believing you will come out alive does not mean you will not end up in a body bag, believing you're dead definetely will.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that me being an atheist means that I believe I can prove there is not a god.

Not all atheists care one way or the other about who believes in what.

-dale

**mostlymad** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:20

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I'm saying that anyone going into combat must have a belief that they will emerge alive and that belief can no more be proven or disproven than the belief in God.

I'm sure you're right. But they can still hold the belief (or hope) that they will live, yet still be an atheist. I'm not arguing with your vaster knowledge, OoE. I have a great deal of respect for your military experience and knowledge. But the term "atheist" should not then be used in that phrase about fox holes because the phrase is easily misleading if you didn't mean "atheist" as one who does not believe in deities but rather as someone who has no belief.

Some people believe they will get out of a very bad situation because they believe in their own strength and determination. That is belief as well, but they can still be atheists. Personally, I don't care what people believe as long as they don't hurt others through their beliefs or degrade anyone for belief or non-belief. Fallacies of logic in argumentation drive me nuts, though! Sorry about that.

(not saying yours was, either)

**Officer of Engineers** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:30

Originally Posted by dalem

I CERTAINLY hope that nothing bad ever happens to me, and in moments of stress might even vocalize that fact. But believing that my vocalization is an actual appeal is false.

Both are you are talking from the point of civies. The fact that both of you hope nothing bad ever happens to you ignores the fact that things are extremely bad to begin with. People are trying their damndest to kill you. And things are only going to get worst.

The belief that you will emerge alive is the only thing keeping you going. I really don't care what that belief is based on, God, a lucky charm, or a 1000 rounds of ammunition - that belief is the only thing keeping you focus and therefore alive.

As I stated, there are no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.

**Officer of Engineers** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:32

My apologies, MM, I did not see your response. The saying is actually a very old one and us soldiers ain't exactly going through the dictionary looking for the more correct term.

**Bill** · 05 Jan 05,, 19:40

Yep, it's a time honored saying among soldiers.

**~~Broken~~** · 05 Jan 05,, 20:06

“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer”…Mark Twain

**mostlymad** · 05 Jan 05,, 20:14

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

My apologies, MM, I did not see your response. The saying is actually a very old one and us soldiers ain't exactly going through the dictionary looking for the more correct term.

Is ok, OoE. We civilians have plenty of time to go through the dictionary, thanks to you soldiers who helped secure this freedom.

**dalem** · 05 Jan 05,, 20:42

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Both are you are talking from the point of civies. The fact that both of you hope nothing bad ever happens to you ignores the fact that things are extremely bad to begin with. People are trying their damndest to kill you. And things are only going to get worst.

The belief that you will emerge alive is the only thing keeping you going. I really don't care what that belief is based on, God, a lucky charm, or a 1000 rounds of ammunition - that belief is the only thing keeping you focus and therefore alive.

As I stated, there are no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.

Then you are willfully misunderstanding the meaning of the word atheist.

-dale