Huge rally for Turkish secularism

**Ray** · 10 May 07,, 07:07

On Turkish streets, local battles over Islam's role

Amid the deep political crisis over the country's presidency, secularists bemoan an incremental Islamization of everyday life on the local level.
By Yigal Schleifer | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

ISTANBUL, TURKEY - Perched on a high hill overlooking Istanbul's old city, the Pierre Loti cafe is named after a 19th-century French bon vivant whose sensual tales of his time in the Ottoman capital have fueled the imaginations of countless tourists.

Earlier this year, the local mayor tried to rename the area around the cafe after an Islamic saint whose tomb – a popular Muslim pilgrimage site – is nearby, enraging Turkish secularists. One secularist member of Istanbul's city council accused the mayor, a member of the Islamic-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), of being part of a larger plan of Islamization.

It is a charge that is being heard increasingly often in Turkey. Founded on secular ideals by Kemal Ataturk after World War I, the majority-Muslim republic is embroiled in a deep political crisis pitting the AKP-led government against secularists, who fear the liberal Islamic party is gaining too much power. Hundreds of thousands of Turks have turned out for massive rallies held nationwide in recent weeks, frequently expressing the concern that the AKP is enacting incremental local changes that are eroding the country's secular foundations.

Much of the concern has focused on the AKP's recent effort to have its foreign minister, Abdullah Gul, elected by parliament as president – an effort that was successfully blocked by Turkey's secular opposition parties.

"Secularism, the regime of the country, is in danger," says Hasan Husseyin Engin, a chemical engineer who was among an estimated 1 million Turks at an April 29 pro-secularism rally in Istanbul. "The government is not obeying the rules of the country as set up by Ataturk. You cannot see this or feel this. They are doing this secretly."

True or not, such claims illustrate how, despite four years in government that have seen record economic growth and brought the country closer than ever to its long-held dream of European Union (EU) membership, many secular Turks remain deeply suspicious of the AKP government and its intentions.

It's a sentiment that also appears to be shared by Turkey's powerful military. When the AKP announced Mr. Gul as its presidential candidate – a post Gul was almost certain to get, given the AKP's majority in parliament – the military released a terse statement late last month expressing its concerns over the AKP government's track record on secularism. But rather than mentioning anything the government itself had done, the military cited several examples of local events it found troubling, such as a Koran reading contest at a municipal celebration in Ankara of a Turkish national holiday.

"I think what they are saying is that on a national level Turkey's secular system has not changed, because the system is too difficult to amend since it's guarded by a secular system and constitution. But they are concerned about the microlevel efforts that are making changes at the grass-roots level," says Soner Cagaptay, director of the Turkish Research Program at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

More at:

On Turkish streets, local battles over Islam's role | csmonitor.com

SNC,

?????

**~~JBG~~** · 10 May 07,, 09:34

"True or not, such claims illustrate how, despite four years in government that have seen record economic growth and brought the country closer than ever to its long-held dream of European Union (EU) membership, many secular Turks remain deeply suspicious of the AKP government and its intentions."

Economic growth has been good but it is not clear that it is due to the policies, alone, of the current Government. On the other hand, the more islamic "flavour" of the Government has NOT assisted in entry into the EU, rather the opposite.

Jonathan

**Big K** · 10 May 07,, 10:21

Originally Posted by JBG

"True or not, such claims illustrate how, despite four years in government that have seen record economic growth and brought the country closer than ever to its long-held dream of European Union (EU) membership, many secular Turks remain deeply suspicious of the AKP government and its intentions."

Economic growth has been good but it is not clear that it is due to the policies, alone, of the current Government. On the other hand, the more islamic "flavour" of the Government has NOT assisted in entry into the EU, rather the opposite.

Jonathan

economic growth is no good.

thats a big lie, and a fools dream...

theres a simple exemple:

AKP govt. announced that the inflation rate is 8%..

but Turkish treasury is giving a return of 20%!!!!!!!

and the world average is 3-4%!!!

theres no now investment or employment in the name of Turkish companies,

all the money belongs to the foreigner moner runners....hot money they call it...

in the name of accordance with EU and privatization program the Govt. sold almost every govt. owned enterprises and all the banks...

**snc128** · 10 May 07,, 12:46

Originally Posted by Ray

One does not have to have the same breath, eat the same food, have the same history together to be good human beings, beyond narrow parochial lines of divisions.

There is nothing better to explain than the immortal lines spoken by Shylock, the Jew in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice

Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means,
warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer
as a Christian is?

Act III, scene I

life's itself is acting ,isnt it Ray?

**Ray** · 10 May 07,, 14:17

Life is not acting.

But literature is a doorway to knowledge and understanding.

Without literature, a man is but an animal.

Maybe you have not understood the deep philosophy behind those immortal words from Merchant of Venice.

Have you heard of the Garip Movement?

That also to you would have no meaning I presume.

I am told that A person who is not ready to open his mind to the breeze of knowledge that wafts in the air, is a loss to humanity!

**Big K** · 10 May 07,, 14:23

Originally Posted by Ray

Have you heard of the Garip Movement?

Turkish Poete Orhan Veli's Garip Movement?

yes i agree with you about literature infact i am graduated from the University of Literature

**Ray** · 10 May 07,, 14:28

Yes.

**snc128** · 13 May 07,, 15:33

Originally Posted by Ray

Life is not acting.

But literature is a doorway to knowledge and understanding.

Without literature, a man is but an animal.

Maybe you have not understood the deep philosophy behind those immortal words from Merchant of Venice.

Have you heard of the Garip Movement?

That also to you would have no meaning I presume.

I am told that A person who is not ready to open his mind to the breeze of knowledge that wafts in the air, is a loss to humanity!

u must be a very clever person to be able to make such kind of determinations.

whatever it is.narcissism is far different than having ideé fixes.
sometimes i listen ppl in patience and see sparkles near by ignorance.somehow,their passions prevent them to see via their minds.those r "thinking animals" whose brains r lost in their eyes.

**Ray** · 13 May 07,, 20:09

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by snc128

u must be a very clever person to be able to make such kind of determinations.

Thank you.

Coming from you, I sure think it is well deserved!

whatever it is.narcissism is far different than having ideé fixes.
sometimes i listen ppl in patience and see sparkles near by ignorance.somehow,their passions prevent them to see via their minds.those r "thinking animals" whose brains r lost in their eyes.

Par excellence that you think!

Indeed, remarkable, if I may add!

**snc128** · 14 May 07,, 08:20

[QUOTE=Ray;373676]

Thank you.

Coming from you, I sure think it is well deserved!

Par excellence that you think!

Indeed, remarkable, if I may add!

this is what i intended toexpress with the sntence "life's itself is acting".

in fact,there r a lot of distinctions that is deserved to be created;we r responsible to find as much common values as we can to be able to solve world conflicts.
like Atatürk said "peace in the home peace in the world!"

**Ray** · 14 May 07,, 16:45

Peace in one's mind and it is universal peace!

Buddha achieved peace because he was at peace with himself!

**Big K** · 15 May 07,, 10:10

some reflections of the last rally which took place in Izmir in the world press;

14.05.2007 14:20 Cumhuriyet (Republic - a turkish newspaper)
thoughts between 29-30 april

from CBS, USA Today, NY Times, ALJAZZERA,

"If we could just get the Iraqi people to follow the same passion as Turkey, we would be out of there as fast as we could load the planes and ships."

----------------------------------------------------------

"Go Turks! Standing up to the "towel head" regime is impressive and necessary for that reason. Stay modern, and stay in touch with civil liberties! I'm proud of Turkey... they are not chickens!!"

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"I can only dream of the day when huge numbers of secular Americans demonstrate against the radical Christianists that continue to rule their "god"forsaken country."

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"Admire the Turks. Contrary, we had friends in the military stationed in England who say that the "born again" movement within the military ranks right now is "suffocating" them, even though they are devout Christians. Although it isn't written, military wives are "expected" to be a part of this and if not, the implied threat is that their husbands will suffer the consequences. We have to be inspired by Turks. This just isn't right, and seems to be exactly what we are supposed to be fighting against like Turks."

-

"Very promising for Turkey. Too bad other countries like US and UK don't denounce organized religion in favor of secular leadership. It is better not to forget that the single largest institutional cause of death and torture in human history is organized religion, beginning with christianity. "

---------------------------------------

"Man, I wish we would return to having a "secular" military and government again too. Religious fanatics are killing our personal freedoms here in America and negatively effecting our military decisions abroad IMO. It's time to get religion out of government & the military and back to being a personal family matter once again in America"

-------------------------------------

"I am a Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I want a return to the days of Ceasaro-papism. Likewise, 99% of Turks are Muslim. A secular constitution does not mean that religion is not an important facit of social life. Yet they stand alone in the Moslem world with their support of religious freedom. Isn't it perfect? I think history will prove the wisdom of Turks decision."

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"Turkey's struggle is EXACTLY why we fight in IRAQ...they are simply farther down this path...I believe citizens of the US must struggle the same in our homeland.... "

----------------------------------
"Good to hear that secular Turks are braver than secular Americans."

-----------------------------------

"This shows that people can take care of their own country. Turkey doesn't need American tanks rolling down their streets to take charge, and throw out militant Islamics. Neither does Iraq. Let the people control their own country"

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I think the secular Turks are heroic and commendable. .. of the same spirit as our fore fathers...

---------------------------------------------

"Other Middle Eastern people had better wake up and fight back against Muslims wishing to enslave them." And Americans had better wake up also!

-----------------------------------------------

"We are inspired by thousands of woman walking for secular and free society. I wish we could have the same courage and enthusiasm in Algeria."

-------------------------------------------------

But if secular marchers demonstrated against the people trying to impose a religious government in the United States, they'd be hated by most of the media.

---------------------------------------------------

Good for these Turks! It's nice to see reasonable people in the Middle East -- at least they're braver than our own American liberals.

---------------------------
Good job, Turks!
"Turkler iyi is yapti. "

"We are inspired by thousands of woman walking for secular and free
society. I wish we could have the same courage and enthusiasm in
Algeria."

**Big K** · 16 May 07,, 08:15

"Turkey

The battle for Turkey's soul
May 3rd 2007
From The Economist print edition

If Turks have to choose, democracy is more important than secularism

Reuters
Reuters

Get article background

AT A time when Muslim fundamentalism seems to be on the rise all around the world, the sight of somewhere between half a million and a million people marching through Istanbul in defence of secularism is a remarkable one. But then Turkey is a remarkable place. As a mainly Muslim country that practises full secular democracy, it is a working refutation of the widespread belief that Islam and democracy are incompatible.

That's not the only reason why Turkey matters. It is a big and strategically important country, has the largest army in NATO after America's, offers a crucial energy route into Europe that avoids Russia and is the source of much of the water in the Middle East. If the negotiations under way for its entry into the European Union succeed, it will be the EU's biggest country by population. But the reason that the world's eyes are fixed on it this week is the possibility that the army might intervene to limit Islam's role in government (see article). For if Turkey cannot reconcile Islam and democracy, who can?

Cyber soldiers

Over the years Turkish democracy has shown itself to be vibrant yet fragile. A string of military coups and interventions stand as testimony to the army's self-appointed role as the guardian of Kemal Ataturk's secular republic. The most recent instance came a mere ten years ago—the so-called post-modern coup that led to the ousting of a previous moderate Islamist government.

On April 27th the army suggested that it might do the same again. Just before midnight, after a day of inconclusive parliamentary voting for a new president, the army's general staff posted a declaration on its website that attacked the nomination of Abdullah Gul, the foreign minister, for the presidency, and hinted none too subtly at a possible coup against the mildly Islamist Justice and Development (AK) government led by Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister who nominated Mr Gul. On May 1st the constitutional court annulled the first round of parliamentary voting for the president, saying not enough members were present. Mr Erdogan promptly said he would call a snap parliamentary election. Street protests, first in Ankara and then in Istanbul, have heightened tension. The cities' coffee houses are buzzing with conspiracy theories.

Given the fractious state of the main opposition parties, and his government's record over the past four years, pollsters expect Mr Erdogan to win another thumping majority. He may then choose to stick with Mr Gul for the presidency, or he may look for another candidate. But he is unlikely to pick one who meets the objections of the army and the secularists.

Turkey's secularists have always mistrusted the AK Party, which has Islamist roots and in government has sometimes toyed with moderate Islamist measures. They especially dislike Mr Gul and Mr Erdogan because their wives sport the Muslim headscarf, which in Ataturk's republic is banned in public buildings. They fret at the prospect of such people controlling not only the government and parliament, as now, but the presidency as well. They fear that once the AK Party has got that triple crown, it will show its true colours—and that they will be rather greener. Given that a fundamental reading of Islamic texts sees no distinction between religion and the state, and that fundamentalism is spreading in the Muslim world, it is understandable that people should entertain such fears.

Yet they do not justify a military intervention such as that of April 27th. However desirable it may be to preserve Ataturk's secular legacy, that cannot come at the expense of overriding the normal process of democracy—even if that process produces bad, ineffective, corrupt or mildly Islamist governments. Algeria, where 150,000 people died in a civil war after an election which Islamists won was annulled in 1992, holds a sharp lesson about what can happen when soldiers suppress popular will. Of course, Turkey is not Algeria; but armies everywhere should beware of subverting elections. It is up to voters, not soldiers, to punish governments—and they will now have the opportunity to do so in Turkey.

They may not want to. Mr Erdogan's government has been Turkey's most successful in half a century. After years of macroeconomic instability, growth has been steady and strong, inflation has been controlled and foreign investment has shot up. Even more impressive are the judicial and constitutional reforms that the AK government has pushed through. Corruption remains a blemish, but there is no sign of the government trying to overturn Turkey's secular order. The record amply justifies Mr Erdogan's biggest achievement: to persuade the EU to open membership talks, over 40 years after a much less impressive Turkey first expressed its wish to join.

Who cares what Europe thinks?

Unfortunately, the EU's enthusiasm for Turkish entry, never high, has visibly waned. Were Nicolas Sarkozy to win the French presidency on May 6th, that would be another setback to Turkey's ambitions: he is categorically against the notion of it ever joining the EU.

In practice there is no chance of Turkey actually signing on the dotted line for another decade. But the perception in the country that so many current members are against it matters, for it reduces the EU's influence. Were the prospects of EU membership obviously brighter, the army would not have intervened as brutally. As it is, the EU's mild condemnation was shrugged off in Ankara, especially when the Americans said nothing at all. Their influence in Turkey is also much diminished, mainly because the war in Iraq has inflamed anti-American feeling.

Given the West's declining influence on their country's actions, Turks themselves must resolve their political crisis. The best way to do that would be to reject the army's intervention by re-electing the AK Party. The secularists' fears of the creeping Islamisation are understandable; but the AK Party's record does not justify it, and military intervention is no way to avert it. For the sake of the state they are trying to protect, Turkey's soldiers should stay out of politics.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the answer for this article one of my friends friend sad and i liked it very much.

Sir,
In the article titled “The battle for Turkey’s soul” (May 5th- May 11th issue, page 9), you have expressed a view that “If Turkey have to choose, democracy is more important than secularism”. I personally find your definition of “secularism vs. democracy” (page 39) extremely misguided and ill-informed.
As you have also articulated there is a widespread belief that Islam and Democracy are incompatible, with no current example of success in the world. So, I believe that the only chance of survival of democracy lies not in the hands of Islamists (no matter how mildly they appear to us at the moment), but in the hands of a united (not divided by in the current debate as “us and “them”) Turkish nation who is committed to the fundamental values of the republic; democracy, liberty and above all to secularism.
There is a great attempt by the Islamists to brand the secularists as anti-democratic since they are aligned with the Turkish military. I am surprised by the blindness of the West to the cries of millions of secular Turks on the streets of Turkey chanting both: “No to a coup and no to Sharia!” These millions appear to the most of Turks (let’s remember AkP has got a 60-70% opposition, even if you take the most optimistic forecasts for the next election) as the true defenders of democracy. There is a strong belief in Turkish society that the currently mild Islamists see democracy as a means to an end, not a way of life like political Islam is. If you follow their history, Islamists have blossomed in Turkey as a backlash to corrupt mainstream options, enjoying the freedoms guaranteed by a secular state.
Islam in its current interpretation is not compatible with democracy without secularism, without a clear separation of state and religion. This is not just an opinion shared by the urban elite, the white Turks as some call it, but by many devoted Muslims who believe and live Islam privately, not publicly.
As you have put forward in a different article (page 94) “Today’s Turkey offers a current example: devout Muslims with a passion for secular democracy”. So, it would be shame to corner Turkey into a choice, as majority of Turks still wants democracy, secularism in public and Islam in private life. It is also a shame that West is acting blind in their support for AkP. This clear support seems to be primarily driven by short term commercial interests and an attempt to create a new model that would fit other Muslim nations.
As being lived right now in the example of Iraq, liberty and democracy does not happen overnight arriving from foreign lands, but it is rather a long and hard journey that only a nation can take on because they want it. You are right that Turkey’s problems are not solved but rather delayed. But, as millions have shown Turks do want democracy without preset conditions and this balancing act requires a great deal of struggle. I believe the battle for Turkish democracy will not be just won at these early elections, but more importantly with whatever comes after that.
S.Burak Kaplanoglu
Ealing, London, U.K.

**Parihaka** · 16 May 07,, 12:14

I've held off from saying anything on this thread til now, but bloody well done to the Turks. You may spend most of your time trying to fondle her indoors arse when we're there but still bloody well done

**snc128** · 24 May 07,, 13:56

The prime minister of Turkey asks a rasping, scornful question: "How many Frances are there?" Which, simply interpreted, means that he's sick of Sarkozy, sick of Brussels' temporising, sick of 40 years of diplomatic effort fading away - and (less obviously) sick at heart for the future of his country.

It's the supposed spectre of the two Turkeys he's trying to deal with, of course. European Turkey and Asia Minor, just across the Bosphorus; secular Turkey, taking to the streets in demonstrations 1.5 million-strong, and Muslim Turkey, where the headscarf and the mosque dominate; cosmopolitan Istanbul, a metropolis of 17.5 million, growing by the day, and rural Anatolia, where those who remain store potatoes under the house to see them through another bitter winter; democratic Turkey, the one the elected politicians rule, and military Turkey, the one where a veiled threat from the chief of the general staff is only a telephone call away. So Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a Muslim premier struggling along an avowedly secular path, has to embrace attack as his best form of defence.

Even without the French presidential election, he was probably on a slow ride to nowhere very enticing. Entry by 2014 had become a drifting dream. Cyprus, with Nicosia playing a wrecking game, was lingering crisis rather than final solution. Iraq had turned American enthusiasm for Turkish membership into a minus, not a plus. Those who seemed warm enough in the beginning - including Britain - had slithered into genteel mutterings.

What, 75 million Turks joining all those Poles, Lithuanians, Estonians, Romanians, Bulgarians on the Daily Mail's immigration alert list? What, the biggest Islamic version of a Trojan horse you could imagine after 9/11? Old Europe might have given its word and entered negotiations in good faith; but even older Europe knew how to slide away. Thus, whatever the upheavals in Paris, there has not been some sudden change of tack here, merely a desultory trimming. Does it matter so much, then? Who can get too upset over what's been obvious for months - and what can still, in extremis, be formally denied at EU summits? Where is the penalty to leaving Turkey on the outside looking in? But let's not kid ourselves. The reasons for welcoming Ankara into our stagnating club are stronger than ever. Erdogan begins with the big one when he talks of an "alliance of civilisations", and adds that "freedom does not exclude, freedom is not divisive".

Introversion is a constant factor in Istanbul as journalists, professors and the rest debate every issue under the sun as though it were the special one. Should the president's wife wear a headscarf? Was Ataturk a 20th-century Thomas Jefferson? Who'll win a general election designed to break the impasse over Islamists or secularists on top? These are the preoccupations of a Turkish elite talking to itself.

Step back, though. Look at the map and Turkey's three southern neighbours: Syria, Iraq, Iran. This is a hub of a nation, seeking to define itself. The temptation is to plonk secularism and western enlightenment in the same neat tray - leaving the urban and rural poor to side with Erdogan's AKP. West versus east, educated versus ignorant: a pat, facile confrontation.

It is also rubbish. The secularist demonstrators in Yizmir last week weren't calling on Brussels to open its doors. On the contrary, their slogans were nationalistic, concerned with keeping their place in a Turkey spurned by Europe. It was Erdogan and his Muslim supporters who had led the campaign for entry, offered all the Cyprus compromises the generals would wear, instituted reform after reform to make Turkey fit for membership purpose. And it is they who have nowhere to go now.

Back into power after election victory? Probably. The AKP has delivered enough economic success to feel confident of delivering more. But without Europe there is no road map, no compulsion for further change. This is a country at the crossroads. Tehran and Baghdad and prospective chaos are not so far distant. Burgeoning nationalism, a severing of ties and aspirations, makes it more, not less, vulnerable.

Where does Turkey go if not closer to Europe? What is it to become if not de facto gatekeeper to our continent? It may be 2,000 miles from Montparnasse to Asia Minor, but the connections are harshly inescapable. There is only one Turkey, struggling for a modern identity. And, alas, there is only a two-faced Europe, in cringing denial of its word, duty and self-interest.

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