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Thread: The Case Against Kyoto

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    Ubi dubium ibi libertas Senior Contributor
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    The Case Against Kyoto

    Enforcing the Kyoto Protocol

    By Steven Martinovich


    Given the heated rhetoric it was surprising to see a mostly muted response to the news that the Kyoto Protocol will finally become a legally binding treaty. With Russia handing its official ratification papers to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan in Nairobi on Nov. 18, the protocol at long last has the support from countries that emit 55 percent of the world's so-called greenhouse gases.
    The subdued reaction was likely due to the refusal of the United States and Australia to ratify the treaty. Although Russia produces 17 per cent of emissions, the big prize was the United States which produced 36.1 per cent of carbon dioxide emissions in 1990. It was with nothing less than fury that the world responded when President Bush withdrew American support for the treaty.
    Despite that anger, Mr. Bush was entirely correct. Numerous economic studies, including ones conducted by the Clinton administration, predicted serious adverse effects, including the loss of up to 900,000 jobs by 2010 if emissions were stabilized at 1990 levels. Reductions to 7 per cent of 1990 levels would impact employment on an even greater scale. The Energy Information Administration estimated that it could cost the American economy as much as $397 billion annually in taxes and regulations designed to reduce energy consumption.
    Of course, the Kyoto Protocol is a global treaty and its effects will be felt worldwide. Bjorn Lomborg, author of The Skeptical Environmentalist, estimates that the global economy could lose as much as $274 trillion by 2100 and barely have any effect on global warming, with the Third World bearing the brunt. Energy, of which the developing world will use more of as it continues to modernize, will only escalate in price.
    Mr. Bush was also correct when he stated that there continues to be a scientific debate over global warming. Over 17,100 scientists — including 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers and environmental scientists and 5,017 scientists who specialize in chemistry, biochemistry, biology and other life sciences — have signed a petition organized by Dr. Frederick Seitz, a past president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, opposing the Kyoto Protocol.
    Their opposition to the treaty is based on the lack of conclusive science that supports traditional global-warming theories. In recent years, an avalanche of studies largely ignored by the media has argued that much of global warming seems to be related to natural processes out of human control. There have been 250 rapid climate change events over the past 2.5 million years. Philip Stott, emeritus professor of biogeography at the University of London, even went so far as to announce in 2002 that attributing global warming to greenhouse gases was "a lie" and that "Kyoto will not halt climate change."
    Despite their refusal to join, the United States and Australia aren't out of the woods. The issue of enforcement has long been debated by the treaty's proponents. It is likely that the World Trade Organization, of which the United States and Australia are both members, will be the mechanism used. The protocol itself, once it comes into force, can be amended to include any date for enforcement that its members wish. One way or another, the world will attempt to punish the two biggest nations that refused to be parties to the treaty.
    Though that is likely, the two nations should continue to stay out. Untold amounts of money will be spent over the coming decades to meet the requirements of a treaty in which the science is suspect and where actions undertaken will have little to no impact on global warming. The United States and Australia will pay a price by refusing to ratify the protocol but it will be far cheaper than the one the treaty's parties will pay, as they will come to learn.

    Steven Martinovich is a freelance writer in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed...0536-6648r.htm
    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

    NEVER FORGET

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    Regular slippery_chimp's Avatar
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    good god - that article falls down is so many places, I dont have the time to give it a full response at the moment

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    Quote Originally Posted by slippery_chimp
    good god - that article falls down is so many places, I dont have the time to give it a full response at the moment
    I was thinkin that, and i know very little on the subject, just the way they throw the numbers around and try to link other stuff to it, means little without the references. It makes the whole thing a waste of time to read.

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    Even if it was ratified every country in the world would be over the limit right after it was signed.

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    Look how some of the EU members handle budget deficits.


    Berlusconi calls Brussels bigwigs 'fat slugs' 07/04/2004

    Never one to underestimate his own talents, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi gave himself another pat on the back Wednesday for squashing the "big fat slugs" who run the show in Brussels.
    "We've won a great battle... we have managed to make those big fat European slugs take steps forward," with the adoption of an EU plan on transport, he said.
    The Italian leader was hitting back after being pummelled for the past few days in Brussels.
    The European Commission, headed by Berlusconi's arch-rival Romano Prodi, served Italy with an "early warning" over the country's budget deficit, which has edged dangerously close to the EU limits.
    Prodi, the leftwing opposition leader who is widely expected to challenge Berlusconi in 2006 elections, also snapped at Italy's current role in Iraq, saying the country would withdraw its troops if the center-left was in power.
    Berlusconi backers in Rome snarled at the commission's budget warning, calling it a dark plot by Prodi to boost his elections chances.
    But Berlusconi himself, already on a campaign warpath ahead of European Parliament elections in June, snapped back.
    "If there is one dedicated European, then it's me. I have always been. And if there is one European country, it's Italy. This absolutely does not mean that it's impossible to criticize those who occupy posts for which they are unqualified," he said, without naming any names.
    During his own campaigning, Berlusconi has vowed to lower taxes -- a promise that cannot have fallen on deaf ears in Brussels, which fears Italy will exceed budget deficit limits imposed by the Growth and Stability Pact.
    Text and Picture Copyright © 2004 AFP. All other copyright © 2004 EUbusiness Ltd. All rights reserved. This material is intended solely for personal use. Any other reproduction, publication or redistribution of this material without the written agreement of the copyright owner is strictly forbidden and any breach of copyright will be considered actionable.


    http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040407152716.aioi7rjx

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    Here's the important part:

    Mr. Bush was also correct when he stated that there continues to be a scientific debate over global warming. Over 17,100 scientists — including 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers and environmental scientists and 5,017 scientists who specialize in chemistry, biochemistry, biology and other life sciences — have signed a petition organized by Dr. Frederick Seitz, a past president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, opposing the Kyoto Protocol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major_Armstrong
    Here's the important part:
    "Mr. Bush was also correct when he stated that there continues to be a scientific debate over global warming. Over 17,100 scientists — including 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers and environmental scientists and 5,017 scientists who specialize in chemistry, biochemistry, biology and other life sciences — have signed a petition organized by Dr. Frederick Seitz, a past president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, opposing the Kyoto Protocol. "

    'the arguments of the mages are endless'

    I'm a little confused by this, are the 17,000 scientists suggesting that global warming is not occurring? Or are they saying Kyoto is not the correct approach? If not what suggestions do they have that might be better. It's very easy and politically expedient to ignore the problem by disputing the science, but at least Kyoto attempts to redress what is a very serious problem.

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    http://www.oism.org/pproject/

    They are saying that Human Action has not been proved to cause Global Warming.

    Also read this...
    http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
    Last edited by Praxus; 25 Nov 04, at 21:39.

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    Mr. Bush was also correct when he stated that there continues to be a scientific debate over global warming. Over 17,100 scientists — including 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers and environmental scientists and 5,017 scientists who specialize in chemistry, biochemistry, biology and other life sciences — have signed a petition organized by Dr. Frederick Seitz, a past president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, opposing the Kyoto Protocol.
    These people are in the minority. Far more scientists believe in the global climate change theory because of green house gasses.
    The shrinking polar ice caps, the vanishing glaciers, and the major climate change do pose challeges of the catestrophic proportions, something needs to be done and now, else we would all follow the path of dinasours sooner than expected!

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    Quote Originally Posted by parihaka
    "Mr. Bush was also correct when he stated that there continues to be a scientific debate over global warming. Over 17,100 scientists — including 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers and environmental scientists and 5,017 scientists who specialize in chemistry, biochemistry, biology and other life sciences — have signed a petition organized by Dr. Frederick Seitz, a past president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, opposing the Kyoto Protocol. "

    'the arguments of the mages are endless'

    I'm a little confused by this, are the 17,000 scientists suggesting that global warming is not occurring? Or are they saying Kyoto is not the correct approach? If not what suggestions do they have that might be better. It's very easy and politically expedient to ignore the problem by disputing the science, but at least Kyoto attempts to redress what is a very serious problem.

    If you look carfully, '2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers and environmental scientists and' how many in that figure are physicists and how many are climatoligists and environmental scientists? i bet the experts who would know are in the minority, i don't ask a plumber to fix my electricity, why ask a physicist to comment on climate change.

    '5,017 scientists who specialize in chemistry, biochemistry, biology and other life sciences' Same again here, how can a life sciences expert comment on a climate and environment issue. I'm sure they are smart and have a way better understanding than me, but i will leave it up to the experts who specifically deal twith the issue, not someone who maps ocean floors or disects frogs.

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    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    These people didn't say climate change wasn't happening...
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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    Isn't this the conference that based all it's findings on the now debunked "Hockey stick model"?

    The theory that linked man to global warming was found to be statistically innacurate. So why would anyone espouse writing laws to support something that's been proven to be wrong?

    Fuzzy logic indeed.

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    Ubi dubium ibi libertas Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by slippery_chimp
    good god - that article falls down is so many places, I dont have the time to give it a full response at the moment
    Great, just makes it easier to conclude you're wrong when you provide no evidence.
    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

    NEVER FORGET

  14. #14
    Ubi dubium ibi libertas Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG
    I was thinkin that, and i know very little on the subject,
    You were thinking it was wrong but you know nothing about the subject. You won't mind if I go with what the article says since you admit that you "know very little about the subject."
    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

    NEVER FORGET

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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    Isn't this the conference that based all it's findings on the now debunked "Hockey stick model"?

    The theory that linked man to global warming was found to be statistically innacurate. So why would anyone espouse writing laws to support something that's been proven to be wrong?

    Fuzzy logic indeed.
    Are you saying we have no impact on global warming?

    If so i disagree, if not i agree, in that global warming is part of a cycle and this may be that cycle, but humans do impact the cycle in a negative way.

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