Thread: Visit by Bush Fires Up Latins’ Debate Over Socialism

Originally Posted by xerxes

@Dreadnought ...

you as an American patriot might be offended if someone - American or non-Americans - calls your president a war criminal/monster stuff like that .. much the sameway an Iranian conservative (not me) might complain about A-jad being called by names ... that is understandable

However, do you agree that if the Nuremberg Trials were to be put for the civilian and military leaders in regards to for example Iraq, there would be a guilty verdict. The four indictments were:

1- Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace
2 - Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
3 - War crimes
4 - Crimes against humanity

so it doesnt nesscerly means that GWB is a warcriminal, he could be guilty of first and second indicment. But nevertheless, if the Nuremberg Trials were to be put intest incase of 2003 Iraq invasion, there will be casualty. If you as an American dont agree with this view, that is respected. However, your disaggrement shows that Nuremberg Trials were indeed victor's justice. Because like or not, even if the Nazi regime didnt committ genocide against Jews and other minors, were they defeated in total defeat, there would be heads rolling.

Only to raise a point about Nurenburg as far as being Victors justice. IMO I dont believe that it was and if it is considered to be Victors justice then there is no one country to blame for it since the Allies had won. Look at what the Allies were up against just in crimes agaist humanity.The media revealed the grim face of War for the first time in modern times if we could call the late 40's modern at that time. What they saw horrified them and anyone else that had a soul to see what the germans were doing to human beings. At any cost they had to be stopped and they were not going to give in easily. They had no intention of. Nurenburgs trials from what I have read were impartial due to the evidence against the Reich. Now we all know that everbody on trial in that trial did not share the same punishment. Some were hanged some jailed and even one that I know of took his own life before he was to be hanged. Some were never found and escaped. But a few also walked away being found not guilty. I wouldnt exactly call that Victors justice. If it was why not try convict and execute them all instead of as individuals. IMO Nurenburg was the end of a radical racist scourge and any person who had family/friends in that war knew it must be stopped no matter what the cost.
So to me Nurenburg wasnt victors justice. To all those countries that were involved it was justice.

^^

@I would agree with you that Nuremberg trials were not kangoroo courts, as many were not hanged, including the naval brass, von papen, von neurth, and even Hess. Also, it was not a not kangoroo court because the Nuremberg did not find the German General Staff and the Reich Cabinet to be a criminal organization, whereas it did incase of RHSA, SS, SD and Gestapo. Therefore, I dont call it kangoroo courts and respect it. However, IMO if we were to takeout Nazi atrocities on occupied territories and their genocide and say that never happened, what remains is the crimes against peace and conspiracy to to dominate Europe. The sad fact is that all Great Powers, and potential great powers are after that, and they all commit crimes against peace and conspire to to dominate their region. That is a given. Germany was guilty of that no less than anyother Great Power. It is for that reason that I say it was victor's justice. Ofcourse Nazi atrocities and genocide gives the German were bad image and does not help their case. But nevertheless there were indicments in Nurember Trials that if applied to 20-21th cenatury many would leaders would find themselves with the guily verdict.

Originally Posted by xerxes

^^

@I would agree with you that Nuremberg trials were not kangoroo courts, as many were not hanged, including the naval brass, von papen, von neurth, and even Hess. Also, it was not a not kangoroo court because the Nuremberg did not find the German General Staff and the Reich Cabinet to be a criminal organization, whereas it did incase of RHSA, SS, SD and Gestapo. Therefore, I dont call it kangoroo courts and respect it. However, IMO if we were to takeout Nazi atrocities on occupied territories and their genocide and say that never happened, what remains is the crimes against peace and conspiracy to to dominate Europe. The sad fact is that all Great Powers, and potential great powers are after that, and they all commit crimes against peace and conspire to to dominate their region. That is a given. Germany was guilty of that no less than anyother Great Power. It is for that reason that I say it was victor's justice. Ofcourse Nazi atrocities and genocide gives the German were bad image and does not help their case. But nevertheless there were indicments in Nurember Trials that if applied to 20-21th cenatury many would leaders would find themselves with the guily verdict.

Agreed but no other nation since that time could even hold a candle to what they did to human beings. All sorts civilians,women,children, troops etc and the numbers speak for themselves. Its not like it was a spare of the moment decision for this. It was cold and calculated years before it was put into effect on all basis military,propaganda,political,scientific etc. Their aim was power and the method was death to anybody that did not fit their specific criteria ie blue eyed fair haired or german anything other was not wanted and savagely cut down with machine gun fire or worse. They were true racisit's at heart and included this in their plans. That alone is a major difference as to how it could be viewed today. They cared not for any religion or anything else so long as their goals were met. And in the end when they were retreating they were most ruthless to make sure nothing was left behind that could come back and haunt them if they were caught. Fortunately they were. They were granted more mercy at that trial then any other victim their boots trampled in the quest for power. Europe 60 some years later still shows their boot marks and many alive will never forget how human beings could be so evil. When countries war today it is for different reasons and normally they dont attempt a conquest of a continent. Germany had exactly this in mind and over years dreamed up the scheme to accomplish exactly that no matter the cost of who they killed or what lands they layed to ruin.

You see this IMO is why this man in Iran is hated by all not just the west. Not for the sole fact that he insults and threatens the jews, although it comes in at #1 reason. But if he knew how many countries gave their soldiers lives (fathers,uncles,brothers etc.) and everthing interconnected with that in a crusade across several continents,many oceans, hundreds of thousands of lifes lost, ruined,tortured or trampled under foot, the pain and suffering these familes endured for those years and many years to follow still haunts them today with a sad yet honorable feeling of loss. He insults the Jewish as a whole so he insults those who came to the Jewish calls for help. Because we dont look at them as Jews, we look at them and everybody else as human beings with a right to coexist. That means he insults us all. Germany was not our fight but we joined those whose fight it was to make certain this would not happen again to any race of people. Ever.

Is this guy for real?

Dreadnought.

His name is BATEMAN.

His spelling is poor!

He meant BAITMAN

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

You see this IMO is why this man in Iran is hated by all not just the west. Not for the sole fact that he insults and threatens the jews, although it comes in at #1 reason. But if he knew how many countries gave their soldiers lives (fathers,uncles,brothers etc.) and everthing interconnected with that in a crusade across several continents,many oceans, hundreds of thousands of lifes lost, ruined,tortured or trampled under foot, the pain and suffering these familes endured for those years and many years to follow still haunts them today with a sad yet honorable feeling of loss. He insults the Jewish as a whole so he insults those who came to the Jewish calls for help. Because we dont look at them as Jews, we look at them and everybody else as human beings with a right to coexist. That means he insults us all. Germany was not our fight but we joined those whose fight it was to make certain this would not happen again to any race of people. Ever.

You have very well written your point, and its fully apperciated ... but I will only add that A-jad - being from the old guard from the days of war and revolution - sees that struggle to be of more importance from his point of view. and it is not that he is uneducated about the sacrifice made in second world war, but rather the case of him using it for his political platform: pissing off a lot of Westerners and attracting the masses of the muslim world. It really about what can be sell to people in the bazar ... it is cheap politics but then again most nations do that. Dick Cheney, the defacto president of the States, used the fear of terror and WMDs to sell the Iraq War, and it worked.


Therefore, I can understand where the anger against A-jad comes from, but when I take step back, I see it more as a political ploy on his part. The significance of the Iran-Iraq war compared to the second world war, is like that of an ant to an giant Oliphant, but when taken into perspective of the nation involve/history, it is huge thing in Iran. Therefore, just like yourself and many others are angered as rash comments made by A-jad, which throws away the sacrifice of so many during WWII, from the Iranian veterans, old guard, points of view, even the slightest help toward Iraq by US during the iran-iraq war is huge source of malcontent and anger. After all for them, their Islamic republic of Iran was only a year and half old when the war broke out. It was baptised in fire. It draws its slogan and strength from the memories of that war, which touches even the most secular anti-Islamic Iranians. That is the source of anger and pain. Ofcourse, if one takes a stepback, one will realise that US actions during Iran-Iraq War was logically dominated by geo-politics. Ofcourse, a Iranian veteran will be anger by this view.

Just like If i were to take a step back, I will say tha US actions in world war one/two (their entrance into the war) was dominated by two desires:

1) To keep the Europe not dominated by a single great power, that could by the Republican France, German Reich or Soviet Russia.

2) The calling of the parent nation - Great Britian to its help

and not the genocide and atrocities ... as the German atrocities against Jews and others was fully vealed after the war. The US entry in war was not caused by that. and a good evidence would be the US entry in war in Great War, where Europe had to be safeguarded from the Wilhelmian hunnish horde, regardless of the lack atrocities against Jews and minority.